Inevitable Defeat - Slovakia '44

[Wraith11B]

Can I just say, to echo some of the previous statements and continued hilarity from this story regarding the absolute collapse of Paradox research: I was trying to run a US game through HPP, and to my dismay, NONE of the division commanders in 1936 are actually in the general lists at the game start. And the OOB is woefully incorrect. I have a free PDF, courtesy of the US Army about every unit from 1919 through 1940. From Armies right on down to listing which support companies were under what division. Almost none of it is correct.

Which just boggles the imagination.

 

[El Pip]

The US decided that defeating Ecuador and sending spies to communist Romania was a better use of their resources than defeating Germany. And from what I've seen in this playthrough, it's hard to say that they are wrong.

The Allies pushed Ecuador back into it's capital sometime back in July (in game, 2015 in real-time), so Fortress Quito has resisted the enemy for six months. They are a formidable foe.

Reminds me of a bit from the Robin Williams "Live on Broadway"... OPERATION EXTREME REDUNDANCY... (at 7:35)

The Slovak defence.

Getting the brightly bluecoated musketlines of Slovak infantry out of the way was probably a good idea.

Is the luftwaffe still a thing that exists over Germany or is fighting off the enemy airforces something that has now solely been entrusted upon the Panzerwaffe and the Slovakians?

Muskets!? I'll have you know the Slovaks are on the Musketoon, which is very marginally more advanced. Just. Maybe.

The Luftwaffe is very busy on the Eastern Front holding back the Red Airforce hordes, but have somewhat abandoned the Western Front. Given the allied lack of interest in advancing that's a reasonable choice to be honest.

Ouch...they aren't even good at being meatshields.

The Slovaks did display Italian-esque levels of enthusiasm for the whole idea of the war, with similar results in terms of effectiveness. But, like the Italians, could rouse themselves into being effective fighters when they found something worth fighting over.

???
Why is this a thing?

Surely you are familiar with the ways of Paradox by now?

Probably because the US-AI takes the idea of the Monroe Doctrine waaaaay too seriously.

That is how the whole Peru-Ecuador conflict event ended up spiralling out of control and dragging the entire Allies in on Peru's side - the US guarantees all of South America in the '44 scenario.

Its much more mundane, the distance from that theatre (or Capital) is shorter than to any other target ...

It's probably that isn't it?

Oh yes the doctrine is super easy and super powerful for us players to use. Not sure what the ai uses all that poltical power for though.

Anyway, I guess the US shall enjoyed blasting other small countries to pieces.

Stop bringing your baffling HOI4 talk in here, this is a local forum for local people. ( ). I'd imagine the US would enjoy the bombing more if it had any impact, alas it isn't doing much bar wasting a lot of fuel and bombs.

General Roberts does indeed know how to wear the famed armoured corps black beret properly so may even know how to command an armoured division properly! Otherwise, the Slovak troops are being employed quite effectively! Holding the line pretty doggedly in the east against a Soviet commander who has a guards tank division and (by the look of him) no sense of humour!

And in the west, freshened up and in reserve for an attack no less, with some semblance of a chance of winning. All futile, of course, but given the general situation I can see why the hipflasks remained stoppered for once. This surely counts as glorious success by T&T’s usual standards.

This will go down as one of the (very brief) high points of Slovakia's war, no disaster of either front for several days!

We will discover if General Roberts has the military skills to match his millinery ability in the very next update.

Can I just say, to echo some of the previous statements and continued hilarity from this story regarding the absolute collapse of Paradox research: I was trying to run a US game through HPP, and to my dismay, NONE of the division commanders in 1936 are actually in the general lists at the game start. And the OOB is woefully incorrect. I have a free PDF, courtesy of the US Army about every unit from 1919 through 1940. From Armies right on down to listing which support companies were under what division. Almost none of it is correct.

Which just boggles the imagination.

That is the part I find most incredible, Paradox should have got at least some things right by accident, yet they almost never did. It wasn't like they didn't put effort in, the general and minister lists are full of the long retired, the dead and children, so someone coded them all and found pictures (often the wrong picture, but at least something). They didn't just make names up, they all existed, it's just so many of them are wrong.

It's particularly annoying when the HOI2 game forum was full of 'Community fixes', where people had done all the research Paradox hadn't to correct all the errors. Why did Paradox just use that data for HOI3? It may not be perfect, but it would be a hell of a lot better and take basically zero effort as all the work had already been done.

As you say, baffling.

 

[Wraith11B]

That is the part I find most incredible, Paradox should have got at least some things right by accident, yet they almost never did. It wasn't like they didn't put effort in, the general and minister lists are full of the long retired, the dead and children, so someone coded them all and found pictures (often the wrong picture, but at least something). They didn't just make names up, they all existed, it's just so many of them are wrong.

It's particularly annoying when the HOI2 game forum was full of 'Community fixes', where people had done all the research Paradox hadn't to correct all the errors. Why did Paradox just use that data for HOI3? It may not be perfect, but it would be a hell of a lot better and take basically zero effort as all the work had already been done.

As you say, baffling.

It's probably got something to do with compensation... Paradox wouldn't want to possibly have to "hire" people and pay them for their efforts at the time. I'm sure some sort of employment deal would have to be their reticence for including it, and maybe how the AI would handle those generals, leading to cries of complaint when it wasn't exactly right.

That said, I don't know exactly how they're handling things now with HoI4 or any of the other mod-generated capabilities that have been baked into their other games. I have to assume they're compensating them some how?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Surely you are familiar with the ways of Paradox by now?

Stop bringing your baffling HOI4 talk in here, this is a local forum for local people. ( ). I'd imagine the US would enjoy the bombing more if it had any impact, alas it isn't doing much bar wasting a lot of fuel and bombs.

Idk...it depends which game. Some are known for PCs steamrolling everything they want until the AI randonly decides to do something so shockingly effective the game collapses...and some are known for everyone smashing into everything at random and sometimes you get a working central state out of it somehow.

HOI being purely about (vaugely) stable, (vaugely) independant states fighting each other just for resources and semi-understandable reasons is actually a bit out of character from the other game series'. Especially because series forerunners france and china are generally designed to up and die a few years into every playthrough...

 

[El Pip]

It's probably got something to do with compensation... Paradox wouldn't want to possibly have to "hire" people and pay them for their efforts at the time. I'm sure some sort of employment deal would have to be their reticence for including it, and maybe how the AI would handle those generals, leading to cries of complaint when it wasn't exactly right.

That sound's very plausible. Second part I have less sympathy with, of course there are going to be changes after you start the game, that's sort of the point - the player should want things to go differently from history or why bother playing at all.

That said, I don't know exactly how they're handling things now with HoI4 or any of the other mod-generated capabilities that have been baked into their other games. I have to assume they're compensating them some how?

Modders work for free but Paradox aren't allowed to sell them or distribute them, that's how I understand the situation. So they can include mod support, point at a list of mods and even recommend some, but can't include any in something they are selling or even giving away.

Idk...it depends which game. Some are known for PCs steamrolling everything they want until the AI randonly decides to do something so shockingly effective the game collapses...and some are known for everyone smashing into everything at random and sometimes you get a working central state out of it somehow.

HOI being purely about (vaugely) stable, (vaugely) independant states fighting each other just for resources and semi-understandable reasons is actually a bit out of character from the other game series'. Especially because series forerunners france and china are generally designed to up and die a few years into every playthrough...

Poor Victoria, forgotten once again. Independent states smashing each other up for resources and vaguely-understandable reasons is one of the core gameplay mechanics, alongside massive revolts from extremists and the AI getting confused by forming Germany/Italy/Similar.

But then Victoria is the shunned series (Paradox refuse to even speak of Rome) and CK2 / EU IV the favoured spawn, so from that perspective I suppose HOI is out of character with the P'dox mainstream.

 

[El Pip]

23rd December 1944

We return not to Bratislava, but to Soissons where the German XXV. Armee Headquarters are holding a meeting to discuss the ongoing Battle of Nemours. As the Slovak 2nd (Heroes of Paris) Division are technically part of the battle they have grudgingly invited General Jurech and his Chief of Staff, Colonel Lendvay, along as well.

The overall commander of the battle, General Lattmann, opens the discussion.

"Gentlemen, we are throwing everything at Nemours for the last few days but we are not making any progress. We need to understand why." He said.

Yes those are SS Panzers fighting alongside Romanians on horses. Three Axis powers.. OK two Axis powers.. Alight Germany and two minors working together to fail to defeat a single British division. ​

"Is that in fact the problem?" Colonel Bader, the XXV. Armee Chief of Staff speculated.

"Are you suggesting the Slovaks are somehow causing everyone else to fight badly?" General von Gross-Zauche Strachwitz asked.

"It would explain many things." Bader said.

Jurech glared at the surrounding Germans and butted in.

"Rubbish. The problem is undoubtedly that General Lattmann is a massive surrendering coward." He snarled.

"Once! I just surrendered once, it's not like it's a habit or anything." Lattmann shouted back.

"Should we perhaps look at other factors?" Lendvay tried to move the conversation on.

"The conditions are not very favourable, we are attacking across a river, at night, during a storm." Bader summarised the most recent report.

"We do out-number them 5:1, even if one discounts the Slovaks and the Romanians on horses getting in the way we still have a 3:1 advantage. We should be doing better!" Lattmann smacked the table.

"The 11th 'Black Bull' Armoured is one of the elite British divisions, it was trained by Hobart and has some of their best equipment. They were always going to be a formidable foe." Bader gestured at the intelligence estimates.

"We have the Das Reich division and the Panzer-Lehr division!" Lattmann escalated his shouting. "Their so called elite are nothing compared to such heroes!"

"Is it the British commander? This General Roberts character?" Jurech suggested.

"Not General 'Pip' Roberts?" Lattmanns face turned white.

"Apparently so." Jurech handed over the intelligence report.

"Why was I not informed?" Lattmann whispered, turning to face Bader.

"This is new information, it only arrived this morning." Bader babbled desperately.

"Mein gott, it is true then." Lattmann visibly staggered.

"Hilfe!" von Gross-Zauche Strachwitz screamed.

Then, to the bafflement of the Slovaks, the assembled Germans generals fled the building, screaming at their staff to cancel the attack.

Full extent of German running away not shown. Full extent of General Pip's majesty is shown. Also shown is the arrival of the legendary British 3rd Motorised Infantry Division, that's legendary as in "didn't exist", though as the division is full of tanks they are still quite tough.​

"Clearly this General Pip fellow has quite the reputation." Jurech tried to remain calm.

"Looks like the Romanians have run away as well." Lendvay pointed out some panicked horses running past.

"So it's just us attacking two armoured division then?" Jurech asked.

Lendvay nodded sadly.

"Call of the attack, I'll compose the message to Bratislava." Jurech sighed as the two Slovaks left the building.

Well that's not gone well​

---
Notes:
General Philip 'Pip' Roberts did command the legendary 11th Armoured, which was an outstanding division, and was certainly one of the better commanders of armour the British had. This, as well as his superior nickname, is clearly the reason the German AI abandoned the attack mid-battle.

General Lattmann still surrendered at Stalingrad in 1943. Since his amazing re-appearance he has repeatedly run away from Paris, hence Jurech's low opinion of him.

 

[Bullfilter]

Well, what a shamozzle! Good to see one of the Pip brotherhood seeing off those filthy Huns. I thought he looked like he knew how to wear a beret properly. One can tell. He also seems to be delivering a steely eyed tank commander’s glare straight at his enemies. Huzzah! Amusing that all the others ran away except for Jurech, who once again was left to turn off the lights and lock the door before leaving.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Poor Victoria, forgotten once again. Independent states smashing each other up for resources and vaguely-understandable reasons is one of the core gameplay mechanics, alongside massive revolts from extremists and the AI getting confused by forming Germany/Italy/Similar.

Not forgotten, just left out because I really don't count it with paradox's other titles in this genre. Its very different. Good though. Possibly the best game they ever made in this kind of style (with ckii with everything on top probably the best game collection).

They were probably performing ponies and horses borrowed from circuses a la Dads Army.

 

[Murmurandus]

Why isn't this Lattmann character Commander in Chief of the Slovak Army yet? Excellent hip flask material I'd say.

 

[El Pip]

Well, what a shamozzle! Good to see one of the Pip brotherhood seeing off those filthy Huns. I thought he looked like he knew how to wear a beret properly. One can tell. He also seems to be delivering a steely eyed tank commander’s glare straight at his enemies. Huzzah! Amusing that all the others ran away except for Jurech, who once again was left to turn off the lights and lock the door before leaving.

Future historians will agree that General Pip arriving in France was the turning point for the Battle of France. Inspired by his steely gaze and properly worn beret, the Allied war effort really got into gear.

The Slovaks would be establishing quite a reputation as masters of the desperate rear-guard, if anyone on either side paid them that much attention.

Not forgotten, just left out because I really don't count it with paradox's other titles in this genre. Its very different. Good though. Possibly the best game they ever made in this kind of style (with ckii with everything on top probably the best game collection).

I've got a copy of Vicki 2 and the expansions, (from a Humble Bundle I think) and poked it a bit but it didn't grab me the way Vicki 1 did. Certainly @Le Jones , formerly of this parish, considered it to be awful as I recall, so that is quite the controversial view point. The lack of any Vicki 3 or massive chain of DLCs would suggest Paradox tend more towards 'Awful' than 'best'.

They were probably performing ponies and horses borrowed from circuses a la Dads Army.

Apparently Romania did indeed keep their "cavalry" until the end, but used them as mounted infantry. Which probably made sense on the Eastern Front, not so much in France.

Why isn't this Lattmann character Commander in Chief of the Slovak Army yet? Excellent hip flask material I'd say.

The Slovak high command has had quite enough traitors *spit*. And can you ever really trust someone who has already surrendered once and then escape in mysterious circumstances? Certainly T&T can't, no matter how empty the hip flask.

Up next, the Christmas Special! Which I almost got out in time for Christmas. Almost. Sort of. Not really.

 

[Bullfilter]

It’s still pre-Christmas in the slower than real time universe, so fetch hither the fromage de la belle France, I say!

 

[sebas379]

Typical Germans again, leaving Jurech to handle 2 British armoured divisions.
I do wonder where they got the 130 number from, to my best knowledge the panzer Lehr wasn't numbered and certainly not that high. 130 panzer divisions, imagine the fuel cost...........

 

[El Pip]

It’s still pre-Christmas in the slower than real time universe, so fetch hither the fromage de la belle France, I say!

I'll stick with Stilton, Cheddar, Danish Blue and Geitost thanks (always found French cheese over-rated to be honest). But good work on highlighting one of the many advantages of slower-than-real-time.

Typical Germans again, leaving Jurech to handle 2 British armoured divisions.
I do wonder where they got the 130 number from, to my best knowledge the panzer Lehr wasn't numbered and certainly not that high. 130 panzer divisions, imagine the fuel cost...........

The constituent parts got the 130 Number (Panzer-Lehr-Regiment 130, Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 130, etc) so I can see what Paradox was thinking. Plus German division numbering went a bit weird towards the end - why the jump from 27 to 116, why were the Reserve Panzer divisions given random numbers, what the hell is a Panzer-Paratroop division?

 

[El Pip]

24th December 1944

In the heart of the Presidential palace Tiso and Tuka are in the Presidential bathroom, staring at the bath. It is full of water and there is a live carp swimming around.

"This is a bit of an odd tradition isn't it?" Tuka finally commented.

"Yes. But we must do it, because it's tradition." Tiso replied

"What sort of a reactionary dictatorship would we be if we didn't?" Tuka agreed.

The musing on the nature of Slovak Christmas is interrupted by a messenger.

"Urgent News from the General Staff!"

General Rennie with his severe Highlanders Hat in full effect. Admittedly he is commanding the mighty (and fictitious) 3rd Motorised Infantry [Full of Tanks] Division, but he is nothing if not committed to his sort-of-heritage. General von Gross-Zauche Sctrachwitz has recovered from his running away and might actually stand his ground.​

"Somewhat unsporting to attack on Christmas Eve." Tiso complained.

The messenger looked shifty.

"What is it?" Tuka barked.

The messenger remained silent.

"I promise not to throw you in the snake and pencil pit, it is Christmas." Tiso said encouragingly.

"The staff thing the attack began a few days ago, but Jurech didn't notice as he was too busy in Nemours." The messenger gabbled.

Tiso sighed and reached for his hipflask.

25th December 1944

The Slovak Cabinet and General Staff are having their traditional Christmas Banquet, the first courses have gone well and they are waiting for Tiso to kill the Carp. Because tradition.

To the relief of the fish, Tiso is interrupted by the arrival of a messenger.

"Vodca! I bring news from the Foreign Ministry!" He announced.

"Go on then." Tiso chucked the carp back in the bucket.

"Please, please let me out. I've been here for weeks. It is Christmas! Help!" The messenger read.

"No I am not letting Stefan out. He is remaining locked in the Foreign Office for his crimes." Tiso flatly declared.

"There is also good and bad news from the Western Front." The messenger continued.

"Go good first." Tuka suggested. Tiso nodded in agreement.

"General Jurech has triumphed over the enemy in Romilly!"

Jurech is victorious! And achieved a marginally better casualty rate. There must be a catch.​

"Excellent news, what is the catch?" Tiso asked.

"Well the enemy may have been somewhat distracted by the other news." General Kubela had been reading the other message.

France has been liberated. Perhaps this is the decisive Allied mistake the Axis have been waiting for?​

"Who liberates a country on Christmas Day?!" Tuka shouted.

"German Intelligence believes it is a cunning plan by the British to wind up the French." von Killinger suggested.

"WHAT?" Tuka just went for it volume wise.

"Well if Liberation Day is the 25th December, which is already a holiday, this means the French won't get another public holiday out of it. Having to do an extra days work will wind them up immensely." von Killinger explained.

Deciding such worries had no place at a Christmas Feast, Tiso took a quick hit from the hipflask and reached for the carp.

---
Notes:
Belated Merry Christmas!

Slovakians do apparently keep carp in the bath for the days before Christmas, then kill it and serve it as the main course at Christmas dinner. Because tradition.

General Pip is making his presence felt already on the Western Front as France is officially liberated, this does not bode well for Slovakia. But then nothing bodes well for T&T so this is no real change.

 

[Bullfilter]

I guess that is about as merry as Christmas gets in T&T’s universe. And a carp? How appropriate for the complaining ruling duo. *pop, glug glug*

 

[Wraith11B]

Some of these eastern European traditions are rather odd. It was no different in Poland.

 

[Andre Massena]

The carp explains a lot

 

[Athalcor]

well, carp in the tub is definitely the way it used to be done...nowadays we just usually buy it one or two days in advance and have the fisherman kill it before you take it home and skin it.

 

[Murmurandus]

Christmas Comedy Carps... so much win...

 

[El Pip]

I guess that is about as merry as Christmas gets in T&T’s universe. And a carp? How appropriate for the complaining ruling duo. *pop, glug glug*

I like to think Tiso is increasingly resigned to his fate, not as much as Pruzinksy obviously, but then who is. Tuka is the one who is raging against the Slovak dying of the light. Well the dying of the very faint glow.

Some of these eastern European traditions are rather odd. It was no different in Poland.

They do like some funky stuff out East, a Polish friend described the traditional wedding he had back home. He was amazed he survived.

The carp explains a lot

Shame it's becoming lunch, it could have been the brains of the outfit.

well, carp in the tub is definitely the way it used to be done...nowadays we just usually buy it one or two days in advance and have the fisherman kill it before you take it home and skin it.

That does sound far more practical. Not sure I'd fancy spending my Christmas killing and skinning a fish, so getting some who knows what they are doing to do it would be my preferred plan.

I did read something in my (excessive) research on this subject that the "Keep it in the tub for a few days" part was because Carp are bottom feeding fish, so it was believed that giving them time in clean water would "flush" their system of any mud and make the fish healthier and tastier. But fishologists (that may not be the correct word) say that this would make no difference, you'd need weeks to properly clear all the river water out of a fish and you don't need to anyway, because fish filter out any mud themselves (that's why bottom feeding fish are full of fish-bits and not mud). So in some small way science and actually understanding nature may have played a part in killing a tradition.

Christmas Comedy Carps... so much win...

One of the few things in Axis Europe that is winning.