Conflated Ethics: Authoritarian/Egalitarian and Xenophobe/Xenophile

[Vjeldan]

The discussion pops up from time to time. But this time, after Nemesis and the"Dick"-Update, i think the options are better than before to solve this issue.

Authoritarian/Egalitarian and Xenophobe/Xenophile are conflated ethics. Why? Because there are possible combinations that are in conflict with themselves.
Authoritarian Xenophobes are fine. They are probably pretty unfriendly, might tend to totalitarian regimes with a stance of "We must stand united under the one true Emperor against the Xeno!". Or the allmighty Junta or whatever. Slaves and Purges are the way to go. They cannot be democratic. No problem here.
Egalitarian Xenophiles are fine too. They most likely believe in the galactic council to be the way to solve things. Every creature has a place, should have some sort of equality, slavery and purging is realy bad and their stance may be something like "Everyone in this universe deserves the equal chance to life and prosper". No problems here either.

But what is an Egalitarian Xenophobe? It's not an Isolationist, that would be a Pacifistic Xenophobe. At the moment they hate xenos but want to protect xeno-rights. Thats weird.
I think an egalitarian xenophobe would have a stance of "Our freedom and equality shall not be endangered by the Xeno who share not and cannot understand our values". They should scoff at slavery as sign of primitiv ways of those aliens, and fight ruthlessly against the xenos that they see as a threat; which includes all forms of purging, since they don't see them as people, but no effective slavery, as that would mean to depend on them, even let them live and work with them. They should be fans of well seperated zones, probably zoos or camps if they feel generous to the primitive, or purging. They most probably are a democracy, possibly an oligarchy but never a dictatorship or imperial rule. They don't like hierarchical living standards, they want utopian living standards. For themselves without aliens draining their big social funds. They don't like alien-diplomacy. They want to come out on top from total conflict with all the lebensraum. They play HoI in Space.
-> Slavery no. Purging yes. The other bonuses are fine.

And what is an Authoritarian Xenophile? At the moment that would be someone that enslaves their own people, but get's angry if other species get enslaved. Thats weird.
I think authoritarian xenophiles are strong believers in hierarchy, centralized power and force projection, but who understand the galaxy as space of a multitude of species to rule over. Their stance might be something like "Under our strong rulership everyone will have their part in our united prosperity!". They won't believe in equality at all and all forms of slavery might be widespread and common practise. The emperor or oligarchy might declare that species to be the perfect miners, those are good house servants, ... the brutish ones will be soldiers, and the three noble species who earned their rights will be allowed to be candidates for the highest ranks. But purging them would be stupid, senseless waste of life. It's not about equality, its about Power and the Ambition of ruling over all sorts of species. Such a ruler is very likely to believe that his rule will bring harmony to the galaxy and end the senseless battles of xenophobic madness. They could strive to become a sort of roman empire. They probably love the galactic council politics, have pompous ambassadors and don't shy from using threats and murder and will become the senate. They play Crusader Kings in space.
-> Slavery yes. Purging no. The other bonuses are fine.



Short version: Let egalitarian/authoritarian decide about wether you can use or hate slavery, and xenophile/xenophobe wether you can use or hate purging.

 

[TrotBot]

All I know is the space nazbols make me feel more icky (and make me want to go to liberation wars even more intensely) than the regular authoritarian xenophobes.

 

[Vjeldan]

I guess these combinations should aim for the uncanny valley of ethics. Combining the nice and the atrocious in an uneasy blend.

A more game mechanical point for the proposed change: It would make purging the special thing for Xenophobes, and slavery for Authoritarians. As is Psionics for Spiritualist, Cyberupload for Materialists, etc.. You could still combine both, or rally against with Xenophile and/or Egalitarian. That would feel much more smooth and make diplomacy more understandable.

 

[grommile]

As is Psionics for Spiritualist, Cyberupload for Materialists, etc..

The actual special thing for materialists is Science-producing Ruler pops and Unity from Science. Anyone (except possibly FanSpi?) can synth ascend.

The actual special thing for spiritualists is religious buildings. Anyone can psi ascend (though doing it as FanMat requires jumping through hoops to start the process).

 

[Korp]

I do not think they are very conflated. Egalitarian/Authoritarian is about how equal or stratified your society is between citizens, while xenophile/phobe is wether you consider aliens to be citizens, or even people for that matter.

By that interpretation an egalitarian xenophobe would want an equal society for all people but would not mind if that came at the expense of xenos being enslaved or exploited, since they are not people and do not count.

Similarly, an authoritarian xenophile would have a stratified society where everyone has their place and inequality is rampant, but aliens would be allowed to exist within this structure on the same terms as the founding species. Basically, the inequalities will be class based rather than species based.

And what is an Authoritarian Xenophile? At the moment that would be someone that enslaves their own people, but get's angry if other species get enslaved. Thats weird.

Keep in mind that authoritarian xenophiles can still enslave aliens, they just can not use species wide slavery. This means that they are fine with slavery, they just do not want you to enslave based on species. In fact the only way to own slaves of your own species is with slaver guilds, which also enslaves aliens at an equal rate.

 

[sillyrobot]

Yeah, I agree. You are conflating the ethics.

Xenophile <---> Xenophobia is answering the question "How worthy are alien species?" on the continuum of "They are people who are just as worthy of citizenship as our own species" to "They are animals and should be controlled and treated as such. Extending rights to them would be as laughable as extending rights to a cow or a dog."

Authoritarian <---> Egalitarian is answering the question "How should our people be treated?" on the continuum of "There is a natural order. Each person must serve in their place." to "All people are equal and must be allowed to strive for what they wish without societal imposition."

There is no conflict in, for example, Xenophobe Egalitarian. All people are considered equal and must be allowed to strive for their own place. Hopefully some will want to help farm these alien animals. They can get dangerous if they get their hands on weapons, after all. But boy are they good workers in the mines!

 

[ImaTomato]

But what is an Egalitarian Xenophobe? It's not an Isolationist, that would be a Pacifistic Xenophobe. At the moment they hate xenos but want to protect xeno-rights. Thats weird.

Not really,the species values democracy/equal rights for it's own people but hates outsiders that are not part of it.Nothing strange about that.

 

[Miuramir]

Yeah, I agree. You are conflating the ethics.

Xenophile <---> Xenophobia is answering the question "How worthy are alien species?" on the continuum of "They are people who are just as worthy of citizenship as our own species" to "They are animals and should be controlled and treated as such. Extending rights to them would be as laughable as extending rights to a cow or a dog."

Authoritarian <---> Egalitarian is answering the question "How should our people be treated?" on the continuum of "There is a natural order. Each person must serve in their place." to "All people are equal and must be allowed to strive for what they wish without societal imposition."

There is no conflict in, for example, Xenophobe Egalitarian. All people are considered equal and must be allowed to strive for their own place. Hopefully some will want to help farm these alien animals. They can get dangerous if they get their hands on weapons, after all. But boy are they good workers in the mines!

In general agreement here, but I'd typically put it a bit differently:

The Xenophile <-> Xenophobe axis is "What counts as people, rather than just things?"
The Authoritarian <-> Egalitarian axis is "Are people best organized top-down or bottom-up?"
They interact in pretty easily defined ways from that viewpoint.

However... upon further consideration, I'm not sure that reaches the full extent of Xenophobia. To hate things at the maximum, you need to give them some sort of agency, even by proxy or analogy. A sufficiently narcissistic xenophobe society might consider that no other so-called 'life' is anything but a waste of resources and an annoyance, but that's not going to reach the depth of hate of a fanatic xenophobe society preaching about the evils of the alien menace.

 

[Dragatus]

"Xenos aren't things. A rock is a thing. A xeno is an animal. A savage beast that simply cannot be expected to ever grasp the meaning of civilization. They are beyond redemption and cannot possibly be allowed to go about their unclean ways or else they might corrupt the more naive and impressionable members of our enlightened society. Think of the offspring!

Now if you will excuse me, I must attend the meeting of local community representatives where we will be discussing the construction of communal housing to provide shelter for the homeless."

 

[Vjeldan]

Keep in mind that authoritarian xenophiles can still enslave aliens, they just can not use species wide slavery. This means that they are fine with slavery, they just do not want you to enslave based on species. In fact the only way to own slaves of your own species is with slaver guilds, which also enslaves aliens at an equal rate.

And that's a thing of equality. Xenophile is another, specialized version of egalitarian.
At the moment xenophiles are not pluralists, but strive for equality for other species.
Egalitarian strive for equality within classes, xenophile strives for equality between species. Thats two kinds of egalitarianism, but the philosophical concept is the same.
-> Less hierarchy, equal chances for everyone, no slavery. In game it bans dictatorial and imperial rulership and in fanatic it even requires democracy.

Xenophile on the other hand, from a philosophical point of view, is no strive for equality, but for diversity. You can be xenophile and egalitarian at the same time and want diversity with equality. But equality is a different concept. Xenophile means pluralism and striving for diversity; to not only accept but to seek the alien, seeing a value of its own in "otherness". A xenophile empire should be very eager to exchanging ideas, population and everything. They don't want to have pure stagnant culture, but to learn from everything there is and integrate that otherness into their own culture to expand their options. The more exotic the better. But this strive for diversity could be followed very militaristic blorg style, or peaceful, or spiritually, or materialistic, but it also could be egalitarian (which would indeed mean the equal rights for aliens) while authoritarians will want to integrate this valueable otherness into their hierarchical structure. And that structure is not equal at all.... and why should it be equally unequal for everyone.. that makes no sense. Authoritarians are never democratic, and often imperial or even feudal with heredetary status. If beeing a slave or a ruler is heredetary, without xenocompatability... that means that the status will remain in that species. It very well might be that all species are enslaved or not at equal rates, but its not very likely to be the default with nepotistic tendencies. Without egalitarianism but a clear authoritarian perspective, why should species have equal chances of getting enslaved or becoming ruler? The authoritarian ruler will have their optinion on different species. It will not be xenophobe, they won't hate them for beeing different, but based on prejudice and politics why should they do anything to restore equal chances.

Also gameplay would benefit if these ethics wouldn't be so similar.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Topic Creator is starting from flawed premises.

They write: "But what is an Egalitarian Xenophobe? It's not an Isolationist, that would be a Pacifistic Xenophobe. At the moment they hate xenos but want to protect xeno-rights. Thats weird."

This is blanketly incorrect. Stellaris Egalitarians care about ensuring equal rights for "people", but to make a bit of an oversimplification the xenophobic egalitarian would say "xenos are not people, and therefore they do not deserve the equal rights of people". The point is Stellaris Egalitarians care nothing specifically about the rights of aliens one way or another.

 

[Nevars]

Keep in mind that authoritarian xenophiles can still enslave aliens, they just can not use species wide slavery.

Which means that Authoriatarian Xenophile on it own can't actually use slavery, only by using civic Slaver Guilds can they use slavery.

So no, Authoriatarian Xenophile by itself doesn't allow slave.

 

[Iosue Yu]

I don't know if we are allowed to draw real-world examples in the forum. I know they enforce a strict rule in their Discord.

The basic is that these 2 axes are different axes, it's just that in our own world we have them put into just Left and Right, by saying Xenophile Egalitarian being Left and Xenophobe Authoritarian being Right. Even this categorisation is an oversimplification of our own societies.

Rome considered all foreigners the same and wanted to Romanise them. They can be seen as Xenophile Authoritarian, because they enslaved everyone and want a strong Cultural Assimilation.

Athens would be the Xenophobe Egalitarian because they ran Democracy but only allowed Athenians to have Citizenship.

And then you have the "Woke Culture" claiming themselves to be Xenophile Egalitarian, and the Nazis similar to Xenophobe Authoritarian.

 

[otro_dia]

Xenophile is another, specialized version of egalitarian.

Yes, but xenophobia is totalitaristic most of the time aswell, but in game there is a clear distinction to give more variety to the type of governments we can make.

A xenophile empire should be very eager to exchanging ideas, population and everything.

I agree a totalitarist and multicultural empire sounds a bit farfetched, but IMO probably the evil capitalists archetype fits there the most. They wouldn´t care about who works, but they would care about mantaining a facade of tolerance for everyone while being repressive about it. It could also be some kind of enlightened monarchy.

 

[Lazy Name]

Xenophile on the other hand, from a philosophical point of view, is no strive for equality, but for diversity. You can be xenophile and egalitarian at the same time and want diversity with equality. But equality is a different concept. Xenophile means pluralism and striving for diversity; to not only accept but to seek the alien, seeing a value of its own in "otherness". A xenophile empire should be very eager to exchanging ideas, population and everything. They don't want to have pure stagnant culture, but to learn from everything there is and integrate that otherness into their own culture to expand their options. The more exotic the better. But this strive for diversity could be followed very militaristic blorg style, or peaceful, or spiritually, or materialistic, but it also could be egalitarian (which would indeed mean the equal rights for aliens) while authoritarians will want to integrate this valueable otherness into their hierarchical structure. And that structure is not equal at all.... and why should it be equally unequal for everyone.. that makes no sense. Authoritarians are never democratic, and often imperial or even feudal with heredetary status. If beeing a slave or a ruler is heredetary, without xenocompatability... that means that the status will remain in that species. It very well might be that all species are enslaved or not at equal rates, but its not very likely to be the default with nepotistic tendencies. Without egalitarianism but a clear authoritarian perspective, why should species have equal chances of getting enslaved or becoming ruler? The authoritarian ruler will have their optinion on different species. It will not be xenophobe, they won't hate them for beeing different, but based on prejudice and politics why should they do anything to restore equal chances.

If I understand you correctly, I feel like you're making an assumption that all aliens will start out on a lower class then the founders? Of course, a Xenophile Authoritarian leader won't go out of their way to help lowly workers whether they're aliens or not, but should a rich and powerful upper-class alien happen to migrate onto one of their worlds they'll still treat them as they would any other ruler. And even if that wasn't the case, not all authoritarian empires are hereditary; You could possibly have have a meritocratic society where those who lack merit lack rights, or a dictatorship where the dictators opinion of you matters more then the circumstances of your birth. Alien rulers are bound to pop up eventually, and once they do they would be treated the exact same way as non-alien ones.

As for the idea that Xenophile Authoritarian leaders will have their own opinion and prejudices towards different species, I think the point of them being xenophile is that they won't. To them, class and/or power is what matters, and species is irrelevant.

 

[Cordane]

Authoritarian Xenophile is a meritocracy taken to its logical extreme. Accept in everyone and everyone to their place. If you're good enough, you're separated out and become part of the elite, while the rest toil to give the elite all they want. "Slavery" might not be an actual state of shackled bondage, but the reality that you'll stay exactly where we keep you unless we determine a better use for you, is exactly the same.

 

[Korp]

Which means that Authoriatarian Xenophile on it own can't actually use slavery, only by using civic Slaver Guilds can they use slavery.

So no, Authoriatarian Xenophile by itself doesn't allow slave.

Yes, exactly. I was replying to the original post, where it claims that a xenophile-authoritarian would enslave their own species but get angry at alien slavery. My point was that an authoritarian-xenophile will not enslave aliens any harsher than it enslaves its own citizens.

 

[Vjeldan]

Rome considered all foreigners the same and wanted to Romanise them. They can be seen as Xenophile Authoritarian, because they enslaved everyone and want a strong Cultural Assimilation.

Athens would be the Xenophobe Egalitarian because they ran Democracy but only allowed Athenians to have Citizenship.

This. And i feel both could be represented with the gamemechanics better than they are at the moment. Rome also gave different rights to different groups of people and was quite cruel. But they wouldn't aim to exterminate other people they could conquer instead.
Athens on the other hand purged whole city-states to the last civilian to show dominance.

Topic Creator is starting from flawed premises.

They write: "But what is an Egalitarian Xenophobe? It's not an Isolationist, that would be a Pacifistic Xenophobe. At the moment they hate xenos but want to protect xeno-rights. Thats weird."

This is blanketly incorrect. Stellaris Egalitarians care about ensuring equal rights for "people", but to make a bit of an oversimplification the xenophobic egalitarian would say "xenos are not people, and therefore they do not deserve the equal rights of people". The point is Stellaris Egalitarians care nothing specifically about the rights of aliens one way or another.

What are my flawed premises and how are they different from what you point out?

I think xenophile at the moment ist just a specialized version of egalitarianism. If it would be seperated from that, it could stand out on its own, while it's still possible to combine it with egalitarianism. At the moment xenophiles literally demand equality. Egalitarian literaly comes from wanting equality. Wanting equality=egalitarian. An authoritarian ruler does not want equality, no matter how xenophile they are.

My point is: Xenophile should want pluralism and diversity, not equality.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

You said that Egalitarian Xenophobes want to protect Xeno rights - they of course don't. (" At the moment they hate xenos but want to protect xeno-rights. Thats weird."")

They want to protect the rights of individuals who belong to "the people" - but this is constrained by their own speciesist mindset to not include xenos. So they have no particular desire to promote **XENO** rights at all.

 

[Mastikator]

My point is: Xenophile should want pluralism and diversity, not equality.

They do. Diversity and pluralism make xenophile faction happy.

That's not the only thing they like. They also like protection for xenos, for example they want only passive study of primitives. And xenophile FE want xenos in sanctuaries for safe keeping. Game mechanics wise xenophiles are not about equality. They're about diversity and protecting xenos.