Make authoritarian slavery distinct from xenophobic slavery

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dragatus

Knight of the Toxic God
35 Badges
Jul 29, 2015
6.838
7.305
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Age of Wonders III
The Problem

A problem the game has had ever since the 2.2 patch is that slavery is the same for both authoritarian and xenophobic empires, which leads to two ethic combos that feel bad. Authoritarian xenophobes feel like they're wasting some of their features, because both enable slavery and if you already picked one of the ethics, the second one provides less features than normal. Likewise authoritarian xenophiles feel bad because they are blocked from using slavery, so part of the features of the authoritarian ethic again don't function. Beyond that it just feels bland for two ethics to do the same thing.

The Solution

My proposed solution is to expand the number of slavery policies.

1) The current Allowed policy would be renamed into something like Species Servitude and would require you to be xenophobic. Being authoritarian would not enable it.
2) Individual Servitude would be a new policy that doesn't allow enslaving species, but instead enslaves 35% of pops of every species (like the Slavers Guild civic). This policy would require you to be authoritarian. Being xenophile wouldn't block it.
3) Unlimited Slavery would be a new policy that both allows enslaving species and on top of that enslaves 35% of pops of every other species. This policy would require you to be both authoritarian and xenophobic.

This would solve all of the above problems. Authoritarian slavery would have a different flavor than xenophobic slavery (35% of every species vs 100% of specific species), empires that are both authoritarian and xenophobic would have a special policy available that allowed them to dive even deeper into slavery than either ethic would individually, and xenophile authoritarians would still be able to practice their brand of slavery, so no ethics features are lost.

Loose Ends

1. Slavers Guild civic probably should no longer enslave 35% of pops, as that effect can now come from the policy. Also, I'm concerned the effects might stack in unintended ways. It could have conditions relaxed so it's unlocked either by authoritarian or by xenophobe ethics. Alternatively it could require you to combine both ethics and lock you into Unlimited Slavery policy.
2. Indentured Assets civic for megacorps should probably lock you into Individual Servitude while also loosing the 35% Enslaved Pop Ratio.
3. The authoritarian, egalitarian, xenophile and xenophobe factions should react to the new forms of slavery.
4. Indentured Servitude could possibly be limited to non-slave species and would serve as the default form for any pops that get enslaved as the 35% of every species.

As a final note, the 35% proportion isn't set in stone. I used it because that's what Slavers Guild currently uses, but it might be better to use 25% or some third percentage. The policies could have different names too. The key point is that authoritarians enslave a proportion of every species while xenophobes get to enslave entire species.
 
Last edited:
  • 5
  • 3
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Xenophobia enables livestock slavery, and authoritarianism boosts slave output. These are two distinct effects that give the two separate forms of slavery when not used together, and synergize with each other when they are. Livestock slavery being not very good is... a bit of a hindrance but I've done runs where all my planets were ecus being fed with lithoid livestock.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
These are two distinct effects that give the two separate forms of slavery when not used together, and synergize with each other when they are.

I have to admit that you're correct, though I don't think it detracts much from my overall point. For any form of slavery other than livestock there is still overlap and my suggested policies would still create a much bigger distinction.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
When I’ve played authoritarian, I usually want to set up species (or sub species) suited for different things - castes if you will. Some species are free, acting as scientists or making alloys, others are not and are my soldiers, entertainers, miners, etc.

Authoritarians don’t enslave you because you’re a xeno - they enslave you because your place is to be a slave. Because you’re dim witted, yet strong. Or charismatic and look good in that entertainers uniform.

The end result might look similar, but my rp experience is unaffected by that.
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
When I’ve played authoritarian, I usually want to set up species (or sub species) suited for different things - castes if you will. Some species are free, acting as scientists or making alloys, others are not and are my soldiers, entertainers, miners, etc.

Authoritarians don’t enslave you because you’re a xeno - they enslave you because your place is to be a slave. Because you’re dim witted, yet strong. Or charismatic and look good in that entertainers uniform.

The end result might look similar, but my rp experience is unaffected by that.
The 35% should be on a full empire basis.

Sub-species that are partially enslaved may be higher than 35% if there are free castes.

A enslaved status independent of citizenship:
Fully Enslaved (xenophobe only)
Heavily Enslaved (authoritarian)
Partially Enslaved (authortarian)
Free (No slave pops - xenophobe main species lock, all species for egalitarian non-xeno)

The 35% enslaved prefers to draw from Full, then Heavy then Partial.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The 35% should be on a full empire basis.

I agree, but the per species version is already coded into the game and easy to implement by a content designer. The per empire version would require new code, which requires a programmer to write the code before the content designer can even begin to work. So I went with the easier to do variant in my suggestion.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The 35% enforcement is stupid as soon as you do Authoritarian things like conquer aliens (and enslave all of them) or conquer aliens (and Vassalize them) so you now have either too many or too few Worker slots for that 35% enforcement. Slaver Guilds should come with a planetary decision to enslave all Workers on the planet, full stop, and not enslave Specialists because that's apparently too difficult to balance.

The different special slavery types seemed like cool ideas but setting only one type for a whole species is just too blunt a tool to make them work. Remove them and make all slaves Chattel.


Anyway, on the thread's topic, my thinking is:

- Phobes get Purge. That's their big thing. They can allow aliens as Resident or they can Purge the aliens. One of the purges is Forced Labor which is not entirely unlike slavery, except it kills the aliens, which is good if you're a Phobe. They should lose almost all slavery access.

- Auth gets Slavery. That's their big thing. They can enslave aliens or make aliens into full citizens, depending on what's best for the Empire. Auth Phile should be allowed to enslave aliens but require "nice" lifestyle for even slaves -- Social Welfare or something comparable, which does apply to some kinds of slave now. Make it apply to Chattel and remove the other types. Make some other way to get access to Servant jobs, perhaps a building which creates one Servant job per employed citizen or something.

- Both of them get access to Livestock. It's a horrible way to treat another sapient being, which is in-theme for both, and furthermore might give some reason for the Devolution Beam to exist.

- In support of that, remove the Delicious trait and fold it into the effect from the Devolution Beam.

- Auth Phile does not get access to Livestock. "Xenos are beloved pets, not food!" They get access to regular slavery only.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
I agree broadly the auth-egal axis should only apply to how you treat "citizen" species, and the xenophile-phobe axis should basically determine whether foreign species can receive "citizen" level rights.

Is your specific suggestion basically just saying "take the slaver guilds civic and give it to all authoritarian empires"? Maybe have the 35% replaced by a policy which can be set to eg 10/20/35/50%?
 
Is your specific suggestion basically just saying "take the slaver guilds civic and give it to all authoritarian empires"? Maybe have the 35% replaced by a policy which can be set to eg 10/20/35/50%?

That's not quite how I'd put it, but it's fundamentally correct. I kind of like your approach though because the implementation would be less disruptive than my original suggestion. So there could be one policy to decide whether you can enslave entire species (requires xenophobe; opposed by xenophile faction) and a second to decide what percentage of free species are slaves anyway (requires authoritarian; opposed by egalitarian faction).
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
The fixed % (per species, per colony) is a mechanic which breaks down as soon as you want to specialize your colonies.

Want a mining world where 80% of jobs are workers and could all be enslaved? Too bad.

Want a research world where 0% of the jobs are workers and none should be enslaved? Too bad.

Want to engineer a (sub-)species which is perfect as slaves and useless otherwise (e.g. Nerve Stapled)? Too bad.

Slaver Guilds fixed % (per species, per colony) works against most scenarios where I actually consider using slaves. It's tolerable on your home world during the first 50 years but after that it fights against colony specialization and fights against multi-species empires (e.g. conquest).

It's just a trash mechanic.

=======

Let me enslave all Workers (per colony or in the whole empire). Don't make me care what species they are if I'm playing Auth, species is a Phobe thing.

If I have (or make) a species which can only take Worker jobs, that species will always end up enslaved. Oh well.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
The fixed % (per species, per colony) is a mechanic which breaks down as soon as you want to specialize your colonies.

Want a mining world where 80% of jobs are workers and could all be enslaved? Too bad.

Want a research world where 0% of the jobs are workers and none should be enslaved? Too bad.

Want to engineer a (sub-)species which is perfect as slaves and useless otherwise (e.g. Nerve Stapled)? Too bad.

Slaver Guilds fixed % (per species, per colony) works against most scenarios where I actually consider using slaves. It's tolerable on your home world during the first 50 years but after that it fights against colony specialization and fights against multi-species empires (e.g. conquest).

It's just a trash mechanic.

=======

Let me enslave all Workers (per colony or in the whole empire). Don't make me care what species they are if I'm playing Auth, species is a Phobe thing.

If I have (or make) a species which can only take Worker jobs, that species will always end up enslaved. Oh well.
Yeah, I think your mechanic is prob best.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I like HFY's idea as well. You can *kind* of get around the %-based slavery by making the jobs indentured servants to allow them to work specialist jobs but it still isn't quite right. Filling soldier jobs can be just as hard with that setup.

The ideas I like are:
1. Change the Slavery Guild civic style of slavery to be 'all workers' rather than percentage based.
2. Default authoritarians to the Slavery Guild civic style of slavery (likely with an option to use species-based slavery if they want to - this could just be an additional option on the slavery policy). They could also choose no slavery.
3. Do something else with the Slavery Guild civic itself, or remove it.
 
While xenophobes enslaving by species and authoritarians enslaving by strata makes sense, I'm not sure what real difference there is between this and living standards. There's no point to enslaving the specialist strata, since slave output bonuses don't apply to them, unless you keep the slavery type and can apply battle thrall or domestic servitude. Same problem but opposite for enslaving workers, it's basically just a living standard that trades happiness for some output bonuses applying to them, though in this case applying slavery type would allow unemployed pops to become servants.

Just kinda seems like the kind of thing that either becomes a no brainer if your ethics allow it or is basically a fluff thing.
 
The Problem

A problem the game has had ever since the 2.2 patch is that slavery is the same for both authoritarian and xenophobic empires, which leads to two ethic combos that feel bad. Authoritarian xenophobes feel like they're wasting some of their features, because both enable slavery and if you already picked one of the ethics, the second one provides less features than normal. Likewise authoritarian xenophiles feel bad because they are blocked from using slavery, so part of the features of the authoritarian ethic again don't function. Beyond that it just feels bland for two ethics to do the same thing.

The Solution

My proposed solution is to expand the number of slavery policies.

1) The current Allowed policy would be renamed into something like Species Servitude and would require you to be xenophobic. Being authoritarian would not enable it.
2) Individual Servitude would be a new policy that doesn't allow enslaving species, but instead enslaves 35% of pops of every species (like the Slavers Guild civic). This policy would require you to be authoritarian. Being xenophile wouldn't block it.
3) Unlimited Slavery would be a new policy that both allows enslaving species and on top of that enslaves 35% of pops of every other species. This policy would require you to be both authoritarian and xenophobic.

This would solve all of the above problems. Authoritarian slavery would have a different flavor than xenophobic slavery (35% of every species vs 100% of specific species), empires that are both authoritarian and xenophobic would have a special policy available that allowed them to dive even deeper into slavery than either ethic would individually, and xenophile authoritarians would still be able to practice their brand of slavery, so no ethics features are lost.

Loose Ends

1. Slavers Guild civic probably should no longer enslave 35% of pops, as that effect can now come from the policy. Also, I'm concerned the effects might stack in unintended ways. It could have conditions relaxed so it's unlocked either by authoritarian or by xenophobe ethics. Alternatively it could require you to combine both ethics and lock you into Unlimited Slavery policy.
2. Indentured Assets civic for megacorps should probably lock you into Individual Servitude while also loosing the 35% Enslaved Pop Ratio.
3. The authoritarian, egalitarian, xenophile and xenophobe factions should react to the new forms of slavery.
4. Indentured Servitude could possibly be limited to non-slave species and would serve as the default form for any pops that get enslaved as the 35% of every species.

As a final note, the 35% proportion isn't set in stone. I used it because that's what Slavers Guild currently uses, but it might be better to use 25% or some third percentage. The policies could have different names too. The key point is that authoritarians enslave a proportion of every species while xenophobes get to enslave entire species.
I just wish the AI wouldn't just use indentured servitude. It makes absolutely no sense that all AI from the most fanatic of xenophobes (including Fan egalitarian xenophobes) to the most authoritarian of tyrants to simply shackle xenos to debt. There should be more variety. Maybe the AI picks and chooses what slavery is best for what species depending on their traits. Strong and very strong xenos for instance would be ideal for chattel slavery. Weak xenos might be better as indentured servants or domestic servants. Resilient xenos might be better as battle thralls. And so on. I also think that this would break the pleasure seekers civic for authoritarian empires. Perhaps having that civic would bar those with decadent lifestyle from being slaves at all. I just want to make my Roman Empire roleplay more accurate, in which I usually reform into pleasure seekers and aristocratic elite later on.
 
There's no point to enslaving the specialist strata, since slave output bonuses don't apply to them

Yeah back when the bonus +% did apply there was a window where it made sense.

But now it's just bad.

Slavery should be limited to Chattel & Livestock, both of which are simple.

Servant jobs can be added back with another mechanic, like a building which creates the job for ANY unemployed Worker.

Penal Colony can give the benefit of Worker enslavement for a single colony at the expense of most Specialist jobs, and can be prohibited for Egalitarian empires. ("Prisoners with Jobs" indeed.)
 
  • 1
Reactions: