War and peace - a system too rigid and an experience too frigid

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Part 1: The TL;DR version (of this suggestion)
TL;DR: the the way war- especially joint war works is too rigid, it leaves empires with too few options, it feels stiffing and these harsh rules do not make sense from an RP sense. They also suck as game mechanics.

But there's a better way, one that makes sense, is fair, is fun, and will improve the whole game. Please join me in the non-TL;DR version.

Part 2: The non-TL;DR version (of this suggestion)
Okay now that it's just us nerds left let me start by saying we should probably overhaul the entire war mechanic. The 1.9 system had a lot of bad but it had a lot of good too, a lot of good that was removed unnecessarily. But I'm a visionary and wish to only learn from the past, not emulate it. So for this I'll have two segments of part 2, one dedicated to Wargoals and Peace Treaties. The other dedicated to the Rules of Joint War

Wargoals and Peace Treaties
  • Claims work like they do right now, I like claims, claims are a good idea IMO
  • You may also "claim" policies and effects on the enemy, like Humiliation, Despoilation, End Atrocities (slavery/genocide), Stop building robots (if spiritualist)
    * You must also have those policies that you seek to impose, imposing a policy claim costs 50 influence, you gain 100 if they surrender to them
  • You can also claim their government type, this will result in a liberation type war rather than a war of conquest
    * If you sue for peace then this claim is mutually exclusive with systems claims, and if they surrender to you then they change policy
  • When you attempt to sue for Status Quo peace you may bargin for claims that you have occupied to encourage the enemy to accept peace
    * Example, you have claim and occupancy of a 5 systems, you offer status quo peace if you get only 4
    * Your claims will be relinquished if you propose it, the AI will be strongly encouraged to accept.
  • You may declare war during a peace treaty, but there are several costs
    * It costs 250 influence to break a peace treaty
    * You gain the Oath Breaker malus of -25% diplomatic weight (as your words are seen as less valuable)
  • If you have access to a "Total War" style CB then that replaces the regular claims but you must still claim their empire (similar to claim policy)


Rules of Joint War
Hello
When you have a single war with two or more parties on one side the rules for the participants works like this
  • All individual empires track their own War Exhaustion individually
  • Any members can sue for status quo peace individually
    * Every enemy has to decide individually whether they accept status quo peace
    * Those that accept become non-hostile and enter a truce
    * Those that don't accept remain at war
  • Any member can surrender to any individual or all opponents
    * When they surrender only they, your allies do not surrender, you can never surrender of behalf of your ally (unless they are a vassal or protectorate!)
    * When you surrender you leave the war
    * If you signed a defensive pact and surrender before your own War Exhaustion reaches 75% AND the other empire (which you signed) is still at war then you become humiliated and gain a -25% diplomatic weight malus for 10 years to represent your reputation as an oath breaker
  • You can join an ongoing war IF you guarantee independence to an empire, this will apply similar effects as Defensive Pact
    * You can also be invited into a war in exchange for favors, but that does NOT impose the effect of Defensive Pact
 
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Colonizor48

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Part 1: The TL;DR version (of this suggestion)
TL;DR: the the way war- especially joint war works is too rigid, it leaves empires with too few options, it feels stiffing and these harsh rules do not make sense from an RP sense. They also suck as game mechanics.

But there's a better way, one that makes sense, is fair, is fun, and will improve the whole game. Please join me in the non-TL;DR version.

Part 2: The non-TL;DR version (of this suggestion)
Okay now that it's just us nerds left let me start by saying we should probably overhaul the entire war mechanic. The 1.9 system had a lot of bad but it had a lot of good too, a lot of good that was removed unnecessarily. But I'm a visionary and wish to only learn from the past, not emulate it. So for this I'll have two segments of part 2, one dedicated to Wargoals and Peace Treaties. The other dedicated to the Rules of Joint War

Wargoals and Peace Treaties
  • Claims work like they do right now, I like claims, claims are a good idea IMO
  • You may also "claim" policies and effects on the enemy, like Humiliation, Despoilation, End Atrocities (slavery/genocide), Stop building robots (if spiritualist)
    * You must also have those policies that you seek to impose, imposing a policy claim costs 50 influence, you gain 100 if they surrender to them
  • You can also claim their government type, this will result in a liberation type war rather than a war of conquest
    * If you sue for peace then this claim is mutually exclusive with systems claims, and if they surrender to you then they change policy
  • When you attempt to sue for Status Quo peace you may bargin for claims that you have occupied to encourage the enemy to accept peace
    * Example, you have claim and occupancy of a 5 systems, you offer status quo peace if you get only 4
    * Your claims will be relinquished if you propose it, the AI will be strongly encouraged to accept.
  • You may declare war during a peace treaty, but there are several costs
    * It costs 250 influence to break a peace treaty
    * You gain the Oath Breaker malus of -25% diplomatic weight (as your words are seen as less valuable)
  • If you have access to a "Total War" style CB then that replaces the regular claims but you must still claim their empire (similar to claim policy)


Rules of Joint War
Hello
When you have a single war with two or more parties on one side the rules for the participants works like this
  • All individual empires track their own War Exhaustion individually
  • Any members can sue for status quo peace individually
    * Every enemy has to decide individually whether they accept status quo peace
    * Those that accept become non-hostile and enter a truce
    * Those that don't accept remain at war
  • Any member can surrender to any individual or all opponents
    * When they surrender only they, your allies do not surrender, you can never surrender of behalf of your ally (unless they are a vassal or protectorate!)
    * When you surrender you leave the war
    * If you signed a defensive pact and surrender before your own War Exhaustion reaches 75% AND the other empire (which you signed) is still at war then you become humiliated and gain a -25% diplomatic weight malus for 10 years to represent your reputation as an oath breaker
  • You can join an ongoing war IF you guarantee independence to an empire, this will apply similar effects as Defensive Pact
    * You can also be invited into a war in exchange for favors, but that does NOT impose the effect of Defensive Pact
Sorry for necroposting but this is amazing and still just as relivant.
 
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Colonizor48

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While were at it an option to peacefully sort out claims for empires that are freidnly with eachother but have claims on eachother for whatever reason. And an option to make demands to pathetic empires to do them peacefully if you are strong enough relitive to them without war. And a plunder type wargoal where you could steal pops/resources and select what pops/resources to steal. Or have them give you monthly stuff for a bit. Or contribute pop growth speed to your empire at the cost of their own(maybe) And humiliation too. Maybe even wargoals to do stuff like forcibly open borders and steal technology. Or to guarantee an empires neutrality(The empire would have to break all diplomatic pacts that arent non agression pacts. and couldnt join wars or make new pacts for a certain amount of time. While were at it also make the war system easier to mod.
 
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Mastikator

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While were at it an option to peacefully sort out claims for empires that are freidnly with eachother but have claims on eachother for whatever reason.
Once upon a time I made a post about calculating the value of systems for AI so that you can buy it.

The short story was that
systems that cut off their empire = no, no buy
systems with megastructures = no, no buy
systems with planets = depends, they're extremely expensive! (see below!)
systems with only space resources = can be bought, price depends on spent resources and expected income from system

It IS possible to calculate the value of a system, the AI should always calculate the highest reasonable value. A human player would probably do that in multiplayer.
 
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Colonizor48

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Once upon a time I made a post about calculating the value of systems for AI so that you can buy it.

The short story was that
systems that cut off their empire = no, no buy
systems with megastructures = no, no buy
systems with planets = depends, they're extremely expensive! (see below!)
systems with only space resources = can be bought, price depends on spent resources and expected income from system

It IS possible to calculate the value of a system, the AI should always calculate the highest reasonable value. A human player would probably do that in multiplayer.
But value of a system should also take into account relitive navy strength. And also bonuses depending ont he planet majority species/ethics and stuff like that. And ais should be more willing if they have good relations.
 
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darh

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I totally agree .... we have to fix this, it is not right .... also it is impossible for my empire to have an "overwhelming" power and in the options it comes out that I can submit to an empire that is "pathetic" , ridiculous !. Also if I am equivalent to another empire in everything, I still cannot declare war on him ...... what should be done? insult him ?, close borders ?, spoil relationships? .. I have already done it and even then you cannot .... that becomes annoying
 
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Tamwin5

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Once upon a time I made a post about calculating the value of systems for AI so that you can buy it.

The short story was that
systems that cut off their empire = no, no buy
systems with megastructures = no, no buy
systems with planets = depends, they're extremely expensive! (see below!)
systems with only space resources = can be bought, price depends on spent resources and expected income from system

It IS possible to calculate the value of a system, the AI should always calculate the highest reasonable value. A human player would probably do that in multiplayer.
They should only *sell* at the highest reasonable rate. They should only buy if they have really good relations to you (or a certain trust threshold?), and value systems far less (to prevent selling some stuff and then immediately warring to get it back). Honestly to just prevent gaminess, I think a system of not selling planets ever might be decent. You'd also need to deal with stuff like not selling off key chokepoints or expansion routes. There's a lot of situations you need to predict and code for, so honestly I'm not surprised by them not putting any work into the feature. Plenty of lower hanging fruit.
 
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Tamwin5

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Part 1: The TL;DR version (of this suggestion)
TL;DR: the the way war- especially joint war works is too rigid, it leaves empires with too few options, it feels stiffing and these harsh rules do not make sense from an RP sense. They also suck as game mechanics.

But there's a better way, one that makes sense, is fair, is fun, and will improve the whole game. Please join me in the non-TL;DR version.

Part 2: The non-TL;DR version (of this suggestion)
Okay now that it's just us nerds left let me start by saying we should probably overhaul the entire war mechanic. The 1.9 system had a lot of bad but it had a lot of good too, a lot of good that was removed unnecessarily. But I'm a visionary and wish to only learn from the past, not emulate it. So for this I'll have two segments of part 2, one dedicated to Wargoals and Peace Treaties. The other dedicated to the Rules of Joint War

Wargoals and Peace Treaties
  • Claims work like they do right now, I like claims, claims are a good idea IMO
  • You may also "claim" policies and effects on the enemy, like Humiliation, Despoilation, End Atrocities (slavery/genocide), Stop building robots (if spiritualist)
    * You must also have those policies that you seek to impose, imposing a policy claim costs 50 influence, you gain 100 if they surrender to them
  • You can also claim their government type, this will result in a liberation type war rather than a war of conquest
    * If you sue for peace then this claim is mutually exclusive with systems claims, and if they surrender to you then they change policy
  • When you attempt to sue for Status Quo peace you may bargin for claims that you have occupied to encourage the enemy to accept peace
    * Example, you have claim and occupancy of a 5 systems, you offer status quo peace if you get only 4
    * Your claims will be relinquished if you propose it, the AI will be strongly encouraged to accept.
  • You may declare war during a peace treaty, but there are several costs
    * It costs 250 influence to break a peace treaty
    * You gain the Oath Breaker malus of -25% diplomatic weight (as your words are seen as less valuable)
  • If you have access to a "Total War" style CB then that replaces the regular claims but you must still claim their empire (similar to claim policy)


Rules of Joint War
Hello
When you have a single war with two or more parties on one side the rules for the participants works like this
  • All individual empires track their own War Exhaustion individually
  • Any members can sue for status quo peace individually
    * Every enemy has to decide individually whether they accept status quo peace
    * Those that accept become non-hostile and enter a truce
    * Those that don't accept remain at war
  • Any member can surrender to any individual or all opponents
    * When they surrender only they, your allies do not surrender, you can never surrender of behalf of your ally (unless they are a vassal or protectorate!)
    * When you surrender you leave the war
    * If you signed a defensive pact and surrender before your own War Exhaustion reaches 75% AND the other empire (which you signed) is still at war then you become humiliated and gain a -25% diplomatic weight malus for 10 years to represent your reputation as an oath breaker
  • You can join an ongoing war IF you guarantee independence to an empire, this will apply similar effects as Defensive Pact
    * You can also be invited into a war in exchange for favors, but that does NOT impose the effect of Defensive Pact

Fan of the potential to change policy, but I'm not sure about the amount of influence you'd get from it. You'd be incentivized to basically just mass policy change an empire to get a ton of influence. I'd rather that having policy claims on other empires, and enforcing those claims via war, are faction demands. Maybe drop the influence cost of a policy claim to 25 or even just remove it if that route is chosen though.

Why would claims be mutually exclusive with policy changes? If an authoritarian bully captured several systems from me in an old war, why wouldn't I be able to take my territory back and enforce no slaving on them? I do think there should be an option to say "Alright, I'll surrender to your demands if you don't take any territory", but there should also be an option to say the opposite, as well as a way to just demand everything. Another way to do it is that on surrender you only give up any occupied systems, HOWEVER the "Conquer" war goal enforces all claims even on a surrender. This would give you a reason to use conquer over humiliate or some other cassus belli. Not sure how that would work with policy demands though.

Basically, there just needs to be a way to barter demands in a peace deal. I'll pay you a ton of money if you give up the systems you took and status quo, or I'll give you some systems you haven't taken yet if you'll end the war right now. The policy claims and separate peace deals would be great as well, but are honestly secondary to that.
 
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Colonizor48

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Could someone make a mod for this?
 
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Colonizor48

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Bump
 
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