Thoughts on FTL Fleets vs. System Fleets

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Cordane

GW/SC/PD/Flak Wonk
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Sep 25, 2013
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Individual sci-fi universes in various media have differing ideas on how much of a given fighting ship is taken up by the FTL system. Vanilla Stellaris basically assumes that every ship of consequence should carry an FTL drive, or at least doesn't give back much in return if a ship is designed without one. But what if carrying or not carrying an FTL drive was much more consequential? What would that make Stellaris gameplay look like?

If an FTL drive was scaled to ship size (i.e., not a set size/cost regardless of how big of a ship it's mounted on) and that meant that a ship of a given tonnage could carry 25% more weapons and/or defensive systems if it went without its own FTL drive, how would that impact the game? I think you would still see much the same as vanilla Stellaris, as the utility of being able to move a given combat capability from system to system would mean likely much more than a slightly cheaper for the same capability, or more capability for the same price, fleet. You'd be giving a bit of an advantage to a "tall" empire, or one that has better access to drive-less FTL (e.g., wormholes (natural or generated), gates, Guild transports). You might need to set up separate ship templates for when FTL is included/required and when it's left out/not available.

What about at 50%? A system warship is now considerably more powerful, ton for ton, than an FTL warship, but probably wouldn't force too many changes beyond the 25% above. A rapid response force of FTL ships is still going to be very valuable, as two 300pt (200pt combat) FTL fleets capable of moving around would almost certainly be better off than three 200pt (200pt combat) system fleets largely stuck in their systems.

What about at 100%? System warships are now categorically more powerful, but only a map/ruleset that offers very little in drive-less FTL is going to see a significant shift toward system fleets. Response fleets are still valuable, but also vulnerable and expensive, and more concentrated empires (either in size or ambition) may opt more for system fleets.

What about 200% or more? Again, ton for ton, FTL ships would be at a decided disadvantage, and only a large speed advantage in FTL drives over drive-less FTL would keep stellar empires from having to shift focus to system fleets. Definitely at this point (possibly earlier), I would switch to calling FTL versus non-FTL ships different names. For example, having three tiers of system ships called Corvettes, Destroyers, and Battleships, versus FTL ships called Scouts, Frigates, and Cruisers.

Finally, what if FTL drives for individual warships (or possibly anything short of a survey ship) weren't available at all? This is far less about offering tough choices rather than a complete shift to wormholes, gates, and other drive-less FTL, and would require a complete rewrite of a lot of systems rather than more gradual adjustments. Personally, I'd also rather look at having tougher choices rather than just a different setting.
 
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Individual sci-fi universes in various media have differing ideas on how much of a given fighting ship is taken up by the FTL system. Vanilla Stellaris basically assumes that every ship of consequence should carry an FTL drive, or at least doesn't give back much in return if a ship is designed without one. But what if carrying or not carrying an FTL drive was much more consequential? What would that make Stellaris gameplay look like?

If an FTL drive was scaled to ship size (i.e., not a set size/cost regardless of how big of a ship it's mounted on) and that meant that a ship of a given tonnage could carry 25% more weapons and/or defensive systems if it went without its own FTL drive, how would that impact the game? I think you would still see much the same as vanilla Stellaris, as the utility of being able to move a given combat capability from system to system would mean likely much more than a slightly cheaper for the same capability, or more capability for the same price, fleet. You'd be giving a bit of an advantage to a "tall" empire, or one that has better access to drive-less FTL (e.g., wormholes (natural or generated), gates, Guild transports). You might need to set up separate ship templates for when FTL is included/required and when it's left out/not available.

What about at 50%? A system warship is now considerably more powerful, ton for ton, than an FTL warship, but probably wouldn't force too many changes beyond the 25% above. A rapid response force of FTL ships is still going to be very valuable, as two 300pt (200pt combat) FTL fleets capable of moving around would almost certainly be better off than three 200pt (200pt combat) system fleets largely stuck in their systems.

What about at 100%? System warships are now categorically more powerful, but only a map/ruleset that offers very little in drive-less FTL is going to see a significant shift toward system fleets. Response fleets are still valuable, but also vulnerable and expensive, and more concentrated empires (either in size or ambition) may opt more for system fleets.

What about 200% or more? Again, ton for ton, FTL ships would be at a decided disadvantage, and only a large speed advantage in FTL drives over drive-less FTL would keep stellar empires from having to shift focus to system fleets. Definitely at this point (possibly earlier), I would switch to calling FTL versus non-FTL ships different names. For example, having three tiers of system ships called Corvettes, Destroyers, and Battleships, versus FTL ships called Scouts, Frigates, and Cruisers.

Finally, what if FTL drives for individual warships (or possibly anything short of a survey ship) weren't available at all? This is far less about offering tough choices rather than a complete shift to wormholes, gates, and other drive-less FTL, and would require a complete rewrite of a lot of systems rather than more gradual adjustments. Personally, I'd also rather look at having tougher choices rather than just a different setting.
Or just add new ship classes that are powerful or cheep to build but can't leave their home system without some sort of long cooldown ftl tugboat. With penalties and this would be super super slow to prevent you from using it as an offensive tool.
 
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upgradeable defense platforms with upgradeable hangarbays that can carry sub-ftl battleships and titans?
Ships that can't leave the system, but punch way above their weight level compared to the costs of FTL ships.
 
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Considering the Doom Ball nature of battles and the AI, the AI will have a few paltry fleets in some systems, which then just get rolled over by a big attack stack.

But yeah replace Defensive Platforms, with them.
 
Finally, what if FTL drives for individual warships (or possibly anything short of a survey ship) weren't available at all? This is far less about offering tough choices rather than a complete shift to wormholes, gates, and other drive-less FTL, and would require a complete rewrite of a lot of systems rather than more gradual adjustments.
Might make a good antagonist, though.

Imagine a Leviathan type enemy which is constrained to a network of wormholes across the galaxy, perhaps with a few special non-hyperlane systems.
 
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Might make a good antagonist, though.

Imagine a Leviathan type enemy which is constrained to a network of wormholes across the galaxy, perhaps with a few special non-hyperlane systems.
I have been thinking about making a suggestion for a new Guardian/Leviathan that is constrained to a multiple-system-spanning nebula which it patrols inside. The thought is that the Guardian is too strong to defeat until very late game (or maybe never) and you can never know if it is safe to venture through the nebulas as your sensors cannot peek into the next system.
 
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This is one of those ideas that sound good on paper, but would likely fall flat in practice as they would basically share most problems with defense stations. The advantage would be that you could build ships that are stronger than current defense stations, but they'd also eat up naval capacity which by itself would be enough to make me not use them.

Whatever benefit one hopes to get from this concept would be better achieved by improving usability of defense stations.
 
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This is one of those ideas that sound good on paper, but would likely fall flat in practice as they would basically share most problems with defense stations. The advantage would be that you could build ships that are stronger than current defense stations, but they'd also eat up naval capacity which by itself would be enough to make me not use them.

Whatever benefit one hopes to get from this concept would be better achieved by improving usability of defense stations.

They should replace Defence Platforms. And who said that had to eat naval capacity?

And Unlike Defence platforms, they could do trade protection.

It stands to reason that a fleet would need a sufficiently large Spaceport to operate out of. So the size of the spaceport and some buildings/tech/traditions could change how large a fleet can be based.


They should have a parallel to normal ships. Maybe trading off, one mobile in the system, one stationary. Stationary are tougher, while the mobile assets have better trade protection.

So Runabout/Sloop-of-war - Corvette level

Space Station - Destroyer level

Patrol Ship - Cruiser level

Ion Cannon - Battleship level

Hulk - Titan Level

Maybe swap the Hulk and Ion Cannon


So if you just want internal trade protection, just build some Runabouts and Patrol Ships. While actual protection, would be a mix, but leaning towards Space Stations, Ion Cannons and Hulks.
 
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They should replace Defence Platforms. And who said that had to eat naval capacity?

And Unlike Defence platforms, they could do trade protection.

It stands to reason that a fleet would need a sufficiently large Spaceport to operate out of. So the size of the spaceport and some buildings/tech/traditions could change how large a fleet can be based.


They should have a parallel to normal ships. Maybe trading off, one mobile in the system, one stationary. Stationary are tougher, while the mobile assets have better trade protection.

So Runabout/Sloop-of-war - Corvette level

Space Station - Destroyer level

Patrol Ship - Cruiser level

Ion Cannon - Battleship level

Hulk - Titan Level

Maybe sway the Hulk and Ion Cannon


So if you just want internal trade protection, just build some Runabouts and Patrol Ships. While actual protection, would be a mix, but leaning towards Space Stations, Ion Cannons and Hulks.
So your idea is to replace defense platforms with Defense ships. I am yours but this sounds like it wouldnt work without some massive reworks. Defense platforms are at the moment useless from mid to lategame and very expensive early game.

1. Your idea just makes this systen more complicated without any benefit. It's not fixing any of the problems.
Early game it will be better to have a mobile fleet unless you are playing really tall and need chokepoints.
Lategame enemy fleets can just run around your system fleets.

2. Having two types of ships will also just be more confusing without giving much benefits.


3. One counting towards naval capacity and the other one not is even more confusing.
 
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again, i think allowing the hangarbays an upgrade to shoot out a fleet you build and store in them is the only way you can make your defense platform idea work. everything else seems a bit too complicated. "Rapid response fleet bays" or something. and make it so they don't take fleet capacity until deployed.

because let's face it, it's your home fleet and it won't put you over cap cause your other fleets are probably gone.

and since it's not FTL capable, it can have that exception to fleet cap as it poses no threat outside of defensive capacity.

it solves the problem of the doomstack a little bit, as you still have your final stand and it makes bastions more important. should make wars very interesting actually, tbh. starbases that have their own naval groups assigned to them haha.

should it be limited to home system as a final stand?
 
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They should replace Defence Platforms. And who said that had to eat naval capacity?

And Unlike Defence platforms, they could do trade protection.

It stands to reason that a fleet would need a sufficiently large Spaceport to operate out of. So the size of the spaceport and some buildings/tech/traditions could change how large a fleet can be based.

What you're proposing is essentially the same as having multiple sizes of defense stations and giving these defense stations trade protection.
 
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It is not only a scifi consideration. This is like medieval and modern (1500s to 1700s) fleets, where the benefits of investing into calm water galleys or ocean-going ships had to be weighed carefully. I like it, it would add another layer of depth
 
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This is essentially what defense platforms should be.
what defence plattworms ACTUALLY should be would be additional starBASES, instead of useless weapons platforms that most of the time you dont even see in the first place

akin to sins of the solar empire for example, big chunky, expensive structures that have the ability to be either fortified or upgraded with utilities

basically mini megastructures
 
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And Unlike Defence platforms, they could do trade protection.

What you're proposing is essentially the same as having multiple sizes of defense stations and giving these defense stations trade protection.
... Pretty sure defense platforms already do trade protection currently.
 
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what defence plattworms ACTUALLY should be would be additional starBASES, instead of useless weapons platforms that most of the time you dont even see in the first place

akin to sins of the solar empire for example, big chunky, expensive structures that have the ability to be either fortified or upgraded with utilities

basically mini megastructures

That is what they should be, and that is also what they used to be before patch 2.2. You could build them anywhere in a system, and they could also be equipped with "aura" effects like minefields. It was fun making proper fortified systems with half a dozen of them.
 
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... Pretty sure defense platforms already do trade protection currently.
Huh.

So instead of doing annoying fleet patrols, I could just build a few Defense Platforms on all the Outposts along the route?

Gotta try that then.
 
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