Let the ruling classes tremble – an Interactive Revolutionary AAR

[BigBadBob]

Nationalism is a by-product of ignorance and fear towards people of different cultures. With increasing education, and a focus on unity of the people rather than unity of "the nation", we can eventually eliminate the hideous demon that is nationalism. It shall take time, but a socialist utopia cannot be built in a day.

'Tis a by-product of those perhaps, but also of a sense of camraderie, like a sports team. One wishes to see one's own team win. That is what you were hoping when Russia attacked Finland, was it not? You did not fear and hate the Russian, you simply wanted the VSVR to be victorious.

 

[LordTempest]

We say that the capitalist nations are like old men, hanging onto a dying system. The truth is that WE are the old men, grasping at a dream that was always out of reach.

You say this based on what? Which nation has made the most progress in the last fifty years? Who has brought the ancient regimes of Austria, Russia and France to it's knees? Which nation has the largest and most professional army in Europe? I am utterly shocked by your defeatism and if it were in my power, would have you and your fellow reactionaries shot.

 

[BigBadBob]

You say this based on what? Which nation has made the most progress in the last fifty years? Who has brought the ancient regimes of Austria, Russia and France to it's knees? Which nation has the largest and most professional army in Europe? I am utterly shocked by your defeatism and if it were in my power, would have you and your fellow reactionaries shot.

Hah! You talk of the nation, not of the people! We defeated them one by one, but can we hope to defeat a coalition? More importantly, can we hope to defeat human nature?

 

[Konnigratz]

'Tis a by-product of those perhaps, but also of a sense of camraderie, like a sports team. One wishes to see one's own team win. That is what you were hoping when Russia attacked Finland, was it not? You did not fear and hate the Russian, you simply wanted the VSVR to be victorious.

I would much prefer the camaraderie that comes with socialism - unity with your fellow man. Rather than nationalist camaraderie, which is driven by arbitrary divisions among the people. We are not Germans, nor Poles, nor Czechs. We are citizens of the world!

 

[Communard]

'Tis a by-product of those perhaps, but also of a sense of camraderie, like a sports team. One wishes to see one's own team win. That is what you were hoping when Russia attacked Finland, was it not? You did not fear and hate the Russian, you simply wanted the VSVR to be victorious.

You speak as if there have always been Britons and Germans and so on. In reality, these identities have grown as old tribal ones were discarded. Why, the American sense of nationality was constructed in a mere hundred years or so, previously people felt a "national" loyalty to their States. Who can forget Robert E. Lee, who fought for the slave-holders in the civil war not because he believed in slavery, but because he could not bring himself to take up arms against his native Virginia. This occurred less than 50 years ago! A national identity can be constructed in a century or two, I estimate the same amount of time is required to dismantle it, and replace it with loyalty and brotherhood with all the peoples of the world. We want to see our "team" win, because our team is the poor and oppressed of the world, and our opponents are their exploiters. Why can the camaraderie of nations not be replaced by that of humanity, just as national identity replaced tribal identity?

 

[LordTempest]

Hah! You talk of the nation, not of the people! We defeated them one by one, but can we hope to defeat a coalition? More importantly, can we hope to defeat human nature?

I have never argued that we could or indeed should fight a coalition of European powers, I have always argued for expansion when the time is right and that time is most definitely now. The Capitalist Powers are decadent and divided, let us take them down one at a time. Fear of a potential coalition is no excuse for such backwards thinking.

 

[BigBadBob]

You speak as if there have always been Britons and Germans and so on. In reality, these identities have grown as old tribal ones were discarded. Why, the American sense of nationality was constructed in a mere hundred years or so, previously people felt a "national" loyalty to their States. Who can forget Robert E. Lee, who fought for the slave-holders in the civil war not because he believed in slavery, but because he could not bring himself to take up arms against his native Virginia. This occurred less than 50 years ago! A national identity can be constructed in a century or two, I estimate the same amount of time is required to dismantle it, and replace it with loyalty and brotherhood with all the peoples of the world. We want to see our "team" win, because our team is the poor and oppressed of the world, and our opponents are their exploiters.

Nearly 50 Years on, the Belgians are still campaigning for independence. Reality Bites Comrade. The poor and oppressed? If anyone is oppressive right now, it is us. No other nation is as divided and ready to collapse in an orgy of violence as the VSVR.

Armageddon is coming comrades. Sooner or later, fear of us will drive the capitalists to a negotiating table, and on that table will be a document. That document will be one of war.

 

[Communard]

Nearly 50 Years on, the Belgians are still campaigning for independence. Reality Bites Comrade.

You'll note that 50 years is shorter than the two centuries I specified. And "the Belgians"? Really? Got any proof that more than a tiny, vocal minority want independence? Within a generation the last national feeling will be gone, I think, this mild resurgnce is nowhere near as large as the original movement. I also note you never addressed my points about how national identies haven't always existed.

 

[Tommy4ever]

Nearly 50 Years on, the Belgians are still campaigning for independence. Reality Bites Comrade. The poor and oppressed? If anyone is oppressive right now, it is us. No other nation is as divided and ready to collapse in an orgy of violence as the VSVR.

Not really. There is of course a small seperatist movement in Belgium but the great mass of people favour continued Union which has done them so well.

Remember that even by the loosest concept Belgium was never a nation. It was a strange amalgamation of two different ethnic groups united by their religion against a common, Dutch, enemy.

However the VSVR is indeed unstable.

 

[BigBadBob]

You'll note that 50 years is shorter than the two centuries I specified. And "the Belgians"? Really? Got any proof that more than a tiny, vocal minority want independence? Within a generation the last national feeling will be gone, I think, this mild resurgnce is nowhere near as large as the original movement. I also note you never addressed my points about how national identies haven't always existed.

I will address that point now. They weren't national before, they were, as Tanzhang has pointed out, tribal. They have evolved, making the socialist state even more unattainable, a state which has had a pseudo-existence before. Called the stone age, in which man lived just and just, and died younger than the average "oppressed worker" in Britain.

((If you refer to my "character", please refer to him as Comrade Bob in order to make the distinction between me as simply a member of the forum, and me as a citizen of the VSVR. Thanks in advance.)).

 

[Enewald]

Hah! You talk of the nation, not of the people! We defeated them one by one, but can we hope to defeat a coalition? More importantly, can we hope to defeat human nature?

We use eugenics and shape Homo Socialisticus.
Homo sapiens sapiens is unable to accept and use socialism for the good of the mankind.

And as said, this proletariat is a creation of the bourgeoisie regimes, we must go back to a system where rural communities define mankind.
Cities, are abusing the rural people just like factory owners abuse their workers.

Society itself is a method of enslavement. Everyone will never be equal in a society.

Communism is a utopia as everyone should know.

We can try to be perfect, but we will never reach the ultimate aim.

We are just humans. We are humane. We kill and we forget, we enslave and we liberate, we build and we destroy.

It is all part of a natural cycle.

Soon we have a new revolution and a dawn of a new era.

 

[Communard]

I will address that point now. They weren't national before, they were, as Tanzhang has pointed out, tribal. They have evolved, making the socialist state even more unattainable, a state which has had a pseudo-existence before. Called the stone age, in which man lived just and just, and died younger than the average "oppressed worker" in Britain.

((If you refer to my "character", please refer to him as Comrade Bob in order to make the distinction between me as simply a member of the forum, and me as a citizen of the VSVR. Thanks in advance.)).

I would argue that national identity is closer to the socialist ideal than tribal identity. Your tribal identity bonded you to thousands of people, national identity bonds you to millions. The next stage is an international identity, a brotherhood of man, a pride in the human race, which can encompass billions.

 

[BigBadBob]

I would argue that national identity is closer to the socialist ideal than tribal identity. Your tribal identity bonded you to thousands of people, national identity bonds you to millions. The next stage is an international identity, a brotherhood of man, a pride in the human race, which can encompass billions.

I will give you this round, as today I am a lone voice against the Parties, but make no mistake, this "honeymoon with victory" cannot last forever.

 

[Communard]

I will give you this round, as today I am a lone voice against the Parties, but make no mistake, this "honeymoon with victory" cannot last forever.

Well, I don't neccessarily disagree that we must be cautious and not be drawn into a war we cannot win. My disagreement with you was over nationalism, and whether it would continue.

It reminded me a little of this:

For I dipt into the future, far as human eye could see,
Saw the Vision of the world, and all the wonder that would be;

Saw the heavens fill with commerce, argosies of magic sails,
Pilots of the purple twilight dropping down with costly bales;

Heard the heavens fill with shouting, and there rain'd a ghastly dew
From the nations' airy navies grappling in the central blue;

Far along the world-wide whisper of the south-wind rushing warm,
With the standards of the peoples plunging thro' the thunder-storm;

Till the war-drum throbb'd no longer, and the battle-flags were furl'd
In the Parliament of man, the Federation of the world.

There the common sense of most shall hold a fretful realm in awe,
And the kindly earth shall slumber, lapt in universal law.

 

[Konnigratz]

I will give you this round, as today I am a lone voice against the Parties, but make no mistake, this "honeymoon with victory" cannot last forever.

On the contrary. Your voice is one of many that is beginning to be drowned out by the growing international society. In time, no one will speak as you do.

 

[Raph]

I root for the Workers, Soldiers and Peasants team, not the German team or the Russian team. There's a lot more sense of cameraderie with people who you actually have something in common with in how you live, rather than people that might have been born in whatever state.

 

[keynes2.0]

The notion that utopia has no nations so neither should we is almost childish. Utopia has no need of money so should we make that illegal? Utopia has no need of armies or militias. Does anyone feel the need to set those aside? Utopia has no need of government so the mere existence the VSVR shows that Utopia must be our goal, not our model. And the previous war has shown that our nations current model hinders, rather then hastens the coming of Utopia. Our nation is becoming more and more like an empire. The way to solve that problem is to encourage more, independent socialist states. Rather then adding Poland to the VSVR, we need to create a German socialist republic, a Polish socialist republic and some number of socialist republics for the Belgium territories.

 

[Communard]

The notion that utopia has no nations so neither should we is almost childish. Utopia has no need of money so should we make that illegal? Utopia has no need of armies or militias. Does anyone feel the need to set those aside? Utopia has no need of government so the mere existence the VSVR shows that Utopia must be our goal, not our model. And the previous war has shown that our nations current model hinders, rather then hastens the coming of Utopia. Our nation is becoming more and more like an empire. The way to solve that problem is to encourage more, independent socialist states. Rather then adding Poland to the VSVR, we need to create a German socialist republic, a Polish socialist republic and some number of socialist republics for the Belgium territories.

Money, armies, government etc. all have their uses and functions. What function would weakening and splitting the VSVR have? By your sectarian dividing, it is you who will hold off the coming society, by giving arbitrary divisions of nationality legitimacy! What is more like an empire, a nation-state which holds its own ethnicity above all others and has other nations as puppet states, or a state which tries to be internationalist, which seeks to eliminate division and conflict? And where would you draw these arbitrary lines? In this world, wherever we have partitioned, there has been conflict at the borders! In a great many border regions between the old German Empire and the Polish areas, the population live in mixed towns and cities, work along side each other, what is to be done with them? Expel the Germans from areas designated "Polish" and vice versa? It would be expensive, counter-productive and probably cause conflict.

 

[Raph]

Actually, now that the Comintern has grown so big, we need to start incorporating all the Socialist Republics into a growing World Federation of Socialist Republics, rather than aggravating and magnifying ethnic and/or religious division by creating subdivisions of our Republic.

 

[Tommy4ever]

Just a warning here.

I've decided to write the election update rather early. That means that it should be up and ready before midnight.

There are six competing factions and you are to use OMOV.

All other rules are the same as last time round