Talking Turkey: Alternate History from 1936

[TheButterflyComposer]

An interesting situation has developed around Memel. The Germans had taken it earlier in the month and had since pushed on to break out into Palanga, to its north. But a Soviet counter-attack has retaken Memel, cutting off a German motorised division. While this is promising, it looks like a major German attack on Memel is in progress from the south. It will be a race against time to see if the Germans can rescue their stranded division. At least it has slowed down a potentially dangerous breakthrough into open country.

Hands up who thinks this is going to happen over and over again till the Germans run out of troops to get pocketed.

The first spy from Vichy France is detected in Turkey. He must have slipped in from Vichy Syria. Perhaps the collaborationist Petain deserves a return gift at some point?

Better question is, where is Clueseau!

While further south, the rest of this Romanian expeditionary corps seems to have established a coordinated defence in central Mongolia. Perhaps those Soviet orders weren’t quite as frivolous as was thought at the time. Though many at Supreme HQ in Ankara remain highly dubious!

Hmm...I think this front will go back and forth. The communists have barely any troops and the Japanese are trying to invade al of Asia. Slow progress if any.

Sadly, the initiative in Libya has been surrendered to the Italians, who continue to claw back ground.

Gah! Where the hell are the British?

The detailed report on dispositions provided by the British soon shows why this has happened: they have chronically under-resourced the offensive, just as it was approaching Tripoli. Most of the units present south and east of Bengasi are HQs! Not only have the British not reinforced the Iraqis as they tried to close in on Tripoli: they seemed to have withdrawn about half the units that were leading the attack! Oh Mr Chamberlain, you’ve done it again!

Now he's not only purging unload soldiers by throwing off planes into Rotterdam but sending civil servants and politicians he doesn't like to 'headquarters' all of which are oddly small and keep moving about wherever bullets are flying.

And where the very versatile Admiral Darlan still commands one of the main battle fleets. Despite filling four portfolios in the Vichy Cabinet! [Ah Paradox, you've done it again! ]

The only possible explanation is that there are two identical Darlan's in TTL...

It's clear here that the Moosemen discovered and rescued Darlan's twin half-brother from a French tower in which he was forced to wear an iron mask to hide the secret. But hey, he's the rightful king of France as well and so France can be saved from the horrors of their republican system after the war (or whatever horrors Chamberlain has concocted for it).

 

[Bullfilter]

when you occupy lands using an expeditionary division does the ownership of the province go to Turkey or to USSR? Let's not experience a bad surprise there

It definitely goes to Turkey. When acting as an EF, they are in effect ‘one of ours’.

12.5% is really a big bonus, for us it means like a new division or half of a new air wing on production queue I guess?

It’s the total cumulative effect, at 2.5% per level. So, it will be 10% already at L4, getting L5 takes it to 12.5%. It shortens the production time, so ends up saving you the IC (costs the same per day, just takes you fewer days to do it). So I guess equates in effect to 2.5% x 135 IC (current rate), so about 3.3 IC in value. But those TAC, MTN and HArm will come in that much more quickly. There’s another tech that actually increase IC by 2.5% per increment.

 

[Bullfilter]

I find it interesting to note that OTL, these statements about Germany's supposed invincibility were made prior to the start of Operation Barbarossa. That noted, it's far from a surprise to see such an unabashed supporter of the evil Fascists spouting such nonsense even while Germany fights a war on two fronts!

It’s roughly in synch again, as France is now defeated. The Soviet dynamic is a bit different - but in this case, they still managed to defeat France (with that OP German factor) even when fighting a full-on second front in the east against Russia and a relatively powerful Turkey + Romania. Pretty scary, actually. So yes, I still thought an isolationist apologist such as Lindbergh may make the remarks in this ATL.

 

[El Pip]

With officer levels now rising to 114%, a little more leadership is devoted to espionage training.

This is a terrible idea, the correct movement would have been to remove all the leadership from espionage and spend it on officer levels to drag it up to 140 and provide a buffer for future armed forces expansion. While the domestic spy catchers appear to be on the ball, the foreign intelligence agency is just a pit for money and leadership.

@nuclearslurpee 's bold claim that there was no research failure was too much for me, so I was forced to check for Swedish incompetence. Certainly it was not just Darlan who is misplaced; most of the French fleets appear to be commanded by either Vichy Traitors - de Laborder, Abrial,etc or the questionable, such as Godfroy, though with heroes like Stosskopf around in the 10th fleet things aren't all bad for the French.

The cockup that stands out is Colmay who, while undoubtedly a proper French hero he never commanded a ship of any kind as he was a naval aviator and then in the Marine Infantry. To be brutal he shouldn't be in the game as he was far too junior even if you count his post-war ranks, if he has to be then it's as a land officer with commando trait. Thus today's Paradox research failure has been found.

 

[diskoerekto]

It definitely goes to Turkey. When acting as an EF, they are in effect ‘one of ours’.
It’s the total cumulative effect, at 2.5% per level. So, it will be 10% already at L4, getting L5 takes it to 12.5%. It shortens the production time, so ends up saving you the IC (costs the same per day, just takes you fewer days to do it). So I guess equates in effect to 2.5% x 135 IC (current rate), so about 3.3 IC in value. But those TAC, MTN and HArm will come in that much more quickly. There’s another tech that actually increase IC by 2.5% per increment.

nice to know that we won't have any bad surprises beginning our saudi conquest

about the IC bonus, it is still very useful albeit not as useful as I first thought it is. maybe it's because I played hoi2 a lot, but I like the tech tree of hoi2 better than 3 or 4.

as always, looking forward to the next episode already

 

[Bullfilter]

Well... Darlan had some dubious loyalties, helping the Americans keep the peace in French North Africa after operation Torch before being assassinated. He also issued the infamous scuttle order, telling the Vichy Fleet to scuttle if any other power tried to take control of them... He never held 4 portfolios at the same time though... and he really didn't like de Gaulle, though maybe he was friendlier with Giraud? Before the aftermath of operation torch, that is. In any way this is an impressive breach of any semblance of realism... I could believe Darlan decided to follow his navy under someone other than de Gaulle, especially considering they are sitting still anyway, and I could see him, in a pinch, as quadruple minister in Vichy, but both at the same time... The only possible explanation is that there are two identical Darlan's in TTL...
Oh and the common Isaacs Governor and Prime Minister of Australia double job is also an impossible classic, barring deep constitutional changes, but you know that better than I do...

Well, things seem to be going all right. There has been no disastrous breakthrough in Soviet Lines, a German Motorised Division could be captured soon, and the Red Army is intact, and growing... We are far from beaten. The Romanians are even saving the day in Mongolia.

Poland will, hopefully, resolve itself once the units there are deployed a bit more sensibly... and we're moving into Hungary en force now, so maybe, just maybe we'll be able to take them out of the war, in a couple of months, though that may me overly optimistic.

I'm glad you finally got a Rifle Division, and right were you needed it. If that's not the Red Army telling you to take Saudi Arabia, I don't know what is...

What about the Comintern Navies?

HMS Devonshire is a stark reminder that even the greatest warriors can die in battle.


I'm pretty sure the land is yours in that case, an expeditionary Division is essentially yours to deploy and use, until you send it back, or it is called back... But considering the number of expeditionary forces in @Bullfilter 's France AAR, I'm sure he already confirmed this.

Greetings,

SkitalecS3

1. Darlan: yes, I guess the programmers didn’t think to have some event to split out the Vichy v Free French commanders ... yes like that Isaacs double-up in Australia we had that debate about, and Giraud being both President and PM of France simultaneously. None of them are game-breaking, it’s really just cosmetic, but it does tarnish the experience a little when telling the story while staying true to the ingame events.

2. Things not going too badly, but then again the fall of France started in a similar fashion, a bit at a time ... I just have to hope that the effect of the Japanese attack is balanced by the fact the Germans don’t have all those Balkan puppets they had in OTL in 1941, and though they are attacking a year early (so may have more time before the US effect is felt so strongly) it is from far further back. But with a fully AI Stalin, well I take nothing for granted!

3. I took a screenshot of the Comintern navies, but it was all a bit laughable and irrelevant in this time line, so didn’t bother writing it up! Nothing like your Soviet Navy in Odin.

4. Yes, the EF aspects had been well tested in the previous game. Other than not being able to change their org, the 156th are now mine! Until released or claimed back, anyway.

 

[Bullfilter]

Technically, the lament here ought to be "Ah, Paradox, you've not done it again!", as the reason for this is simply that Paradox didn't implement a way for leaders to die or be removed from a nation outside of events - and then they went and barely wrote any events! It's funny, because many leaders have dates of death in the game files, but this only matters when you choose a starting date after that day, so all across the world you'll have generals and admirals who ought've died in a plane crash, a train derailment, or from *ahem* bad cooking, alive and well and leading their armies incompetently to certain doom! It's quite poetic, I suppose.

The good news is that at least this one can hardly be blamed on the research team, which should save Lord El Pip the trouble of going on an otherwise well-deserved rant for one day!

Indeed. Though random accidental events that happen after a game start date I think are fair enough. Not choking on that chicken bone or copping the stray bomb, bullet etc I think is fair. Or even Darlan not going over to Vichy in an ATL. But not fighting for both Free France in far Newfoundland and being prominent in the Vichy ministry? Lamentable! Quite happy for Lord El Pip to rant at that one.

 

[Bullfilter]

Hands up who thinks this is going to happen over and over again till the Germans run out of troops to get pocketed.

Maybe - though this time they may be rescued. Still, the Soviets can absorb a lot more of that kind of AI chicanery than the Germans can. I can only hope it them and not us that ends up in the big pocketses, my precious! *Gollum*

Better question is, where is Clueseau!

Alas, as El Pip would point out, even Clouseau managed to roll up my entire spy network in the end. Though with a lot of Commonwealth help.

Hmm...I think this front will go back and forth. The communists have barely any troops and the Japanese are trying to invade al of Asia. Slow progress if any.

Looks like it. I hope Japan runs into supply problems too - then the US, though the common experience is for the US to suddenly do nothing when they enter the war!

Gah! Where the hell are the British?

Now he's not only purging unload soldiers by throwing off planes into Rotterdam but sending civil servants and politicians he doesn't like to 'headquarters' all of which are oddly small and keep moving about wherever bullets are flying.

Quite so.

It's clear here that the Moosemen discovered and rescued Darlan's twin half-brother from a French tower in which he was forced to wear an iron mask to hide the secret. But hey, he's the rightful king of France as well and so France can be saved from the horrors of their republican system after the war (or whatever horrors Chamberlain has concocted for it).

The Darlan buds of May will bloom. Let’s hope Chamberlain’s in-game mortal coil is shuffled off soon - is there a death event for him? I’ve never noticed, or if I did have forgotten. Maybe the AI Churchill would be better, but I’m not holding my breath!

 

[Bullfilter]

This is a terrible idea, the correct movement would have been to remove all the leadership from espionage and spend it on officer levels to drag it up to 140 and provide a buffer for future armed forces expansion. While the domestic spy catchers appear to be on the ball, the foreign intelligence agency is just a pit for money and leadership.

As a broad principle I agree, but it is only a small increment and the aim is still to get officers as high as possible. But (in part for narrative purposes, but also for later) I just want to have the option of dropping in a full spy network into a country of choice and this very small redirection (still at a lower level than when reduced previously) should be manageable. If worse comes to worst, I’ll temporarily strip a little LS out of the seventh research project to keep officer levels rising.

@nuclearslurpee 's bold claim that there was no research failure was too much for me, so I was forced to check for Swedish incompetence. Certainly it was not just Darlan who is misplaced; most of the French fleets appear to be commanded by either Vichy Traitors - de Laborder, Abrial,etc or the questionable, such as Godfroy, though with heroes like Stosskopf around in the 10th fleet things aren't all bad for the French.

I’d have been disappointed if you didn’t!

The cockup that stands out is Colmay who, while undoubtedly a proper French hero he never commanded a ship of any kind as he was a naval aviator and then in the Marine Infantry. To be brutal he shouldn't be in the game as he was far too junior even if you count his post-war ranks, if he has to be then it's as a land officer with commando trait. Thus today's Paradox research failure has been found.

Nice work!

 

[Bullfilter]

nice to know that we won't have any bad surprises beginning our saudi conquest

about the IC bonus, it is still very useful albeit not as useful as I first thought it is. maybe it's because I played hoi2 a lot, but I like the tech tree of hoi2 better than 3 or 4.

as always, looking forward to the next episode already

Interesting. I played HOI1 a bit (though can’t remember too much of it), then when I came back again it was HoI3, so I never played 2. And haven’t gone to 4 (yet, anyway). What do you think of each? Is 4 worth it?

I’ll be going back to Blut und Schlacht next after three in a row here, so there will be a couple of days to ponder any advice you may have for the February cabinet meeting!

 

[diskoerekto]

Interesting. I played HOI1 a bit (though can’t remember too much of it), then when I came back again it was HoI3, so I never played 2. And haven’t gone to 4 (yet, anyway). What do you think of each? Is 4 worth it?

I’ll be going back to Blut und Schlacht next after three in a row here, so there will be a couple of days to ponder any advice you may have for the February cabinet meeting!

I haven't played 1, and only know 3 and 4 through AARs and extensive wiki reading (i know it's stupid to waste time reading and researching about games that you don't have time to play but I do it anyway) so I am not really in a good position to say if 4 is worth it or not, but the tech trees seem best at 2 (in my opinion). Moreover, I didn't like that fixed combat width in 4, it seems like it's pushing players to gamey or ahistorical division templates (which is not really a bad thing in itself) and to a very small possible number of them. Also, the game seems like becoming more fleshed out only recently. maybe in a few more DLCs it would be a complete game. I might have more time then and buy and start playing myself

I wonder what Rurik is up to, I will shape my February cabinet meeting after the Rurikid Thing

 

[Bullfilter]

I haven't played 1, and only know 3 and 4 through AARs and extensive wiki reading (i know it's stupid to waste time reading and researching about games that you don't have time to play but I do it anyway) so I am not really in a good position to say if 4 is worth it or not, but the tech trees seem best at 2 (in my opinion). Moreover, I didn't like that fixed combat width in 4, it seems like it's pushing players to gamey or ahistorical division templates (which is not really a bad thing in itself) and to a very small possible number of them. Also, the game seems like becoming more fleshed out only recently. maybe in a few more DLCs it would be a complete game. I might have more time then and buy and start playing myself

I wonder what Rurik is up to, I will shape my February cabinet meeting after the Rurikid Thing

You should give one of them a go - I’d like to see a diskoerecto AAR one day!

As for Rurik ... who knows what he’s thinking these days. I don’t think he does himself after his unfortunate encounter with Adalberto’s pruning knife!

 

[diskoerekto]

You should give one of them a go - I’d like to see a diskoerecto AAR one day!

In fact I'd really like to write an AAR one day (I've been saying this for more than a decade now) but whenever I get to it (i tried oman and oirat with eu) I feel like people will get bored of it so I quit before posting the first post for some reason i always fear i am being unoriginal.

As for Rurik ... who knows what he’s thinking these days. I don’t think he does himself after his unfortunate encounter with Adalberto’s pruning knife!

I expect him to start thinking his battleaxe as his new... weapon... and overcompensate but odin knows what he is going through himself. god I hate adalberto so much i hope he doesn't die before his realm is in ruins and rurik (or a descendant) finds a way to kill him. i really want to go full titus andronicus on him

 

[nuclearslurpee]

Hands up who thinks this is going to happen over and over again till the Germans run out of troops to get pocketed.

*Raises hand*

Gah! Where the hell are the British?

I believe that this is the point in the war where the Brits all take off for tea-time. As tends to happen every few weeks or so.

Thus today's Paradox research failure has been found.

Hallelujah and amen!

 

[Bullfilter]

In fact I'd really like to write an AAR one day (I've been saying this for more than a decade now) but whenever I get to it (i tried oman and oirat with eu) I feel like people will get bored of it so I quit before posting the first post for some reason i always fear i am being unoriginal.

Nah, you’ll do just fine and the community is very supportive. And once you start, it actually becomes a lot easier. And you can pick the game, situation, AAR type, format and episode length and frequency you want! Test the water, you’ll find it quite comfortable!

I expect him to start thinking his battleaxe as his new... weapon... and overcompensate but odin knows what he is going through himself. god I hate adalberto so much i hope he doesn't die before his realm is in ruins and rurik (or a descendant) finds a way to kill him. i really want to go full titus andronicus on him

Same here! But he has other ambitions too ...

 

[Bullfilter]

*Raises hand*

Gotta hope so! But the Soviet AI probably won’t be any smarter than the German one ...

I believe that this is the point in the war where the Brits all take off for tea-time. As tends to happen every few weeks or so.

Agree. Much like the US all game. The Glorious Union will be the Arsenal of the Proletariat! Oh, and the Soviets too, I guess.

Hallelujah and amen!

Praise the Lord El Pip!

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Its amusing to note the differences between how poeple look at and approach different paradox games. HOI is viewed with at best snark and disdain by its own fans on here for being impotent, incorrect and idiotic at times. CKII writers seem much more gleeful at the cracks in that game (though so far as I have seen, there don't seem to be as many game or immersion breaking examples). It could be bias talking but has anyone else noticed this? I mean, we know EUIV and CKII are Paradox's babies that also poop gold for them whilst HOI is more a sad old Retriever forced to dance every often to a tune that gets worse with time and that it didn't exactly get right in the beginning.

What I'm basically asking for someone who hasn't played the HOI series is what is there to like about it (I presume there are many things given the forum exists) and what sucks?

 

[Bullfilter]

Its amusing to note the differences between how poeple look at and approach different paradox games. HOI is viewed with at best snark and disdain by its own fans on here for being impotent, incorrect and idiotic at times. CKII writers seem much more gleeful at the cracks in that game (though so far as I have seen, there don't seem to be as many game or immersion breaking examples). It could be bias talking but has anyone else noticed this? I mean, we know EUIV and CKII are Paradox's babies that also poop gold for them whilst HOI is more a sad old Retriever forced to dance every often to a tune that gets worse with time and that it didn't exactly get right in the beginning.

What I'm basically asking for someone who hasn't played the HOI series is what is there to like about it (I presume there are many things given the forum exists) and what sucks?

These are very good points. HOI3 is my favourite of the Paradox games I play (though that is only CK2 and this at the moment, and used to play EU:Rome a long time back). I think HOI3 gets the barbs because of historical inaccuracies that are far easier to pick out, far more info on the points available in the record and it's not a sandbox game (really) unlike CK2 or probably some of the others (I've only seen them via AARs). And it's no longer being updated by Paradox, though is still being 'up-modded' and seems to have a loyal player base. I think those things conspire to give it a bad press.

Sure, there are some aspects of gameplay/AI that people sometimes have a go at - but what game doesn't have that? For me, rather than what I've seen of HOI4 via AARs and reviews, HOI3 has the exact feel I was after as an old board wargamer: the counters with the old military symbols, what looks like an old map/gameboard, and a lot of variable playability that can (if you do it right) lead to tense/difficult situations, whether playing by yourself or for an audience in an AAR. I love it! And you don't have to keep paying for DLC!!

CK2, from the little I've played and more I've watched on AARs, is a different kind of beast. It is sandbox and largely (though not all) character-based and loosely historically based. But once you start playing, it becomes very alt-hist so (unlike HOI3) isn't competing anymore with a horde of WW2 historical aficionados with a bunch of hard copy and internet research at their fingertips to tell you which historical bits are wrong. But that's also fun: people may pick holes in all that, but it doesn't stop them playing!

And this far on, people are still actively playing, modding and AARing HOI3 when the successor has been out for some time and is still being updated. HOI4 may or may not be a good/better game, but I still have plenty I want to do/explore with HOI3. I think that says something about it.

Finally, an old soldier thing, but it's true nonetheless: you only really get worried when the soldiers (players) stop complaining. In this case, I think the complaints mean people are still paying attention and care about the details. But having Darlan running most of Vichy and still commanding Free French ships, while historically jarring and logically silly, does nothing at all to harm the playability or experience of the game. You wouldn't even notice - or care - if you were just playing yourself.

My 20c worth, anyway.

 

[roverS3]

What I'm basically asking for someone who hasn't played the HOI series is what is there to like about it (I presume there are many things given the forum exists) and what sucks?

Basically, I haven't seen a better grand strategy game series on ww2 yet. It has everything, from Diplomacy, all the way to weather... sure, there are many faults, but in a game of this scope, there were bound to be some. As @Bullfilter pointed out, most of the mistakes (like the one discussed above) don't influence the actual gameplay at all. And yes, the more you play, the more you research, the more you start to notice mistakes, but ultimately it's still a great game, the fact that we tolerate/deride it's many flaws, and keep playing, just proves that. I think we all know how good the game is, but we don't all know every little 'mistake' that can happen, so we tend to discuss that in more detail and take the rest for granted...
From what I've seen, HOI4 is somewhat incomplete, but has some interesting dynamics (sadly, no counters yet). As I've seen HOI3 improve with almost every DLCs and new release, I expect HOI4 to be at it's best when HOI5 is announced and you can snap up a collector pack for a reasonable price... In the meantime, plenty more to do in HOI3.

 

[El Pip]

Mostly what @Bullfilter said. The HOI games I've enjoyed most have been the grand strategy ones, trying to juggle resources across multiple theatres and never having enough of anything, as has been said it does that better than any other game I've tried. It does require some house rules and/or mods to stop it being too easy and there are some well known loop holes and ways to exploit the AI, but what game doesn't have those sort of issues?

It's probably at it's weakest as a puppet or minor, as you can do almost nothing, though I would argue that Germany is probably the most boring to play as in vanilla; it is all but impossible to lose. US games can be hit or miss as well, sometimes the war can be wrapped up before you get there and sometimes you are facing a Germany that spans from Normandy to Vladivostok.

On the research front I gather CK2 still has plenty of anachronistic issues and/or mistakes, it's just less people are aware of them. Certainly the people who are aware of them care, see for instance historically named heresies that pop up centuries before the 'named' heretic was born (Lollards 700 years early!), the ongoing complaints about when the Great Schism actually happened or what to do about Chalcedonian Christianity (sadly 'Nothing' does not appear to be an acceptable answer)