That's true, but if you look back you can see (iirc) three people changing their vote from AF once it was pointed out that it wasn't a Bonapartist party.Tommy4ever said:
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
People don't do that with irl parties, isn't it a bit much to expect in a game?Tommy4ever said:Thats why poeple should read my party policies.
AF, before Maurras rise, was not particulary monarchist. It was just a nationalist party, and french nationalism was before WWI mainly monarchist. Maurras believe in monarchism because he thougt that it was the best way to install integralism.
Voters of the right are spreading lies about the Gauche Radicale and its plan for France.
Please read the Gauche Radicale internal policy. I'll even do you a favor and paste it here:
We must bring all the means of production under common ownership, abolishing capitalism and instituting working class power. The National Assembly shall remain in place, but power shall be delineated downwards to the level of local working class councils, Soviets in the Russian lexicon that we are becoming so familiar with. It is at the local level with direct workers control over their communities and places of work that socialism shall be built.
As you can clearly see, the Assemblée Nationale and elections for it will still exist. The difference is that more power will be descentralized with the formation of working class councils. The truth is, the Gauche Radicale proposition of direct democracy is much more democratic than the bourgeoisie representative democracy your party supports.
Its ironic that the second biggest party is the one that hates elections and will get rid of them if they win
Please read the Gauche Radicale internal policy. I'll even do you a favor and paste it here:
We must bring all the means of production under common ownership, abolishing capitalism and instituting working class power. The National Assembly shall remain in place, but power shall be delineated downwards to the level of local working class councils, Soviets in the Russian lexicon that we are becoming so familiar with. It is at the local level with direct workers control over their communities and places of work that socialism shall be built.
As you can clearly see, the Assemblée Nationale and elections for it will still exist. The difference is that more power will be descentralized with the formation of working class councils. The truth is, the Gauche Radicale proposition of direct democracy is much more democratic than the bourgeoisie representative democracy your party supports.
The national assembly shall remain in place, but the real power shall be in the hands of working class councils. Workers, in marxist terminology meaning manual wage labourers. Not including self owning farmers, small business owners or really any members of the rather large middle class. Meaning that while we maintain a ceremonial democracy a large part of the population will be effectively disenfranchised.
Which will only be a temporary problem, I'm sure, since the Radical Left would swiftly confiscate all property (down to the very clothes on your back) and dole it out to the soviets and the non-proletarian parts of the population will soon be proletarized as slave labourers. The Soviets inevitably will be controlled by those with revolutionary credentials and the means of terrorising their subjects into obedience. So, soon everyone but a tiny clique of professional revolutionaries will be disenfranchised. Anyone opposing the ruling elite will be labeled "anti-revolutionary", or a "saboteur" and will swiftly be disposed of. Even among themselves heads will roll in the struggle for power since The Great Revolution, it will be said, is important enough to make any sacrifice to defend.
The Bolsheviks are too fanatical to ever allow themselves to be voted out of power. Look at what is happening in Russia. Where is the democracy there? Not in the workers councils, I assure you. Lenin is not a friend of free and democratic elections and Leninism is the role model of the Radical Left. It is rather sad, really. France has always created our revolutions at home and spread them to the rest of Europe. Now you want to import the revolution, from frigid and backward Russia of all places. Disgraceful.
Last edited:
Yea, the situation in Russia is telling. I can tell you that power will rest in the hands of the party, not the councils. You call democracy? If so, then I'm the Batman.
Working Council's are a Russian idea, Lenin's idea? If I recall correctly, the first application of worker's council happened in the Paris Commune, back in 1871. It ended, it is important to remember, in one of the biggest massacres of french history, conducted by the first government of the same republic still prevailing in our country, where tens of thousands were summarily massacred, and thousands more exiled.
And please, show me where all the accusations you made are in the Gauche Radicale's Program.
Hm... Glorifying the Commune, eh? The what that totally bailed out on its support of the agricultural worker? The one who ensured that violent action was necessary to put it down? Hm.... not much to glorify.
The confiscations of private property is written plainly for all to see. The disenfranchment of the non-proletarians by putting all real political power in the hands of the soviets is just as obvious. That is what you vote for. The rest of my accusations are logical consequences of that, and the fact that the leader of your party travelled to Petrograd to study at the feet of Lenin himself and took his ideology home with him.
The leader of the Radical Left is a Leninist who wants to inflict the atrocities of the Russian revolution on the people of France. These are the facts. Look at what is happening in Russia. Where is the Russian Democracy? Where are the Russian human rights? What can we reasonably expect from a disciple of Lenin in the seat of power in France?
Even his narrow defeat could spell disaster. If he wins the votes of millions of misguided Frenchmen he may well take that as his mandate to take power by force.
I urge all who have voted for the Radical Left to change their vote to any other party or you could bring civil war down on France and millions more will die. Workers, farmers, teachers and doctors, the poor as well as the wealthy. Women, children, men, noone would be spared the horrors. Would you drown us all in blood for a dream that has already been betrayed?
Last edited:
Pardon me, but that's incorrect. The position of the Radical Left isn't that private property should be seized and then given to others to own privately. It's that the entire concept of private property should be destroyed. In the same way the bourgeoisie destroyed feudal property, and the kings destroyed tribal property. And why shouldn't the workers own the means of production? Aren't they the ones who produce everything? Aren't they the ones who transport those products? At what stage do the bourgeoisie contribute, besides taking the money and leaving the workers scraps to live on?Serpent said:
Besides, wasn't your party part of a bloc which created emergency laws cracking down on antiwar activists? Where were your cries for democracy and human rights while anarchists, socialists, and other groups were being arrested for 'unpatriotic activities'? It seems to me that freedom is important to you when you're trying to scare people into voting against their interests. But not so important when people disagree with your policies.
Where are you getting your reports about Russia? I have yet to see them here. Well, it doesn't matter, what matters is that in Russia they are fighting a war. In war abuses are commited, specially in a civil war of a country that had millions of its population still living pratically in serfdom (even though Alexander II abolished serfdom in Russia in 1887, their condition remained effectively the same). That doesnt mean the government supports it. However, it is pretty interesting seeing you and your fellow partymen so ardently defending democracy abroad, since you supported the Russian Empire for years, an absolutist state with no regards whatsoever to human rights. It's indeed curious.
Well said comrade, well said.
Well said comrade, well said.
It fits the AAR's theme well ATM. The problem I have is that people keep using arguments from the future, which makes it all a bit pointless, but oh well...
Duke of Awesome said:
Devolving? Don't you mean evolving?
But yeah, it's kind of hard to help when the second largest party is Leninist. If the AF and RL switched places we'd be debating monarchy v republic instead.Yeah, I'm trying to avoid that. It's tough to separate in game vs. out of game knowledge.Cybvep said:
Agreed, but what has already been seen cannot be unseen. Unless people are extremely careful, they'll end up giving their opinions based at least partially in future events.
And the debate about communism fits the timeline quite well.
ooc:
The Russian revolution happened earlier in this timeline than it did historically. It makes sense that the events following also happened earlier. There was plenty of atrocities going on at this stage of the revolution, although the worst was yet to come. Lenin made his view on democracy quite clear even before the revolution. The Bolsheviks were a vanguard party, which meant that they intended to rule the people against the people's will because only the Bolsheviks knew what was best for them.
I wasn't writing about the future at least not intentionally, although my knowlege of history is not perfect. My arguments in character are of course biased, but I'm trying to be as objective as I can about the facts. Can you point out anything I wrote that was based only on future events?
And btw, serfdom in Russia was abolished in 1861.
ic:
I don't think I was incorrect. What you describe is a confiscation of private property and it's just as bad as what I wrote. You won't even own the clothes on your back. Someone else will control everything, in committe. Where you live, what you eat, where you work, none of it will be your own choice because you will be completely dependent on the Party. Freedom will be abolished and the soviets will rule all.
The Russian revolution happened earlier in this timeline than it did historically. It makes sense that the events following also happened earlier. There was plenty of atrocities going on at this stage of the revolution, although the worst was yet to come. Lenin made his view on democracy quite clear even before the revolution. The Bolsheviks were a vanguard party, which meant that they intended to rule the people against the people's will because only the Bolsheviks knew what was best for them.
I wasn't writing about the future at least not intentionally, although my knowlege of history is not perfect. My arguments in character are of course biased, but I'm trying to be as objective as I can about the facts. Can you point out anything I wrote that was based only on future events?
And btw, serfdom in Russia was abolished in 1861.
ic:
I don't think I was incorrect. What you describe is a confiscation of private property and it's just as bad as what I wrote. You won't even own the clothes on your back. Someone else will control everything, in committe. Where you live, what you eat, where you work, none of it will be your own choice because you will be completely dependent on the Party. Freedom will be abolished and the soviets will rule all.
Last edited:
I really have no idea where I got 1887. I searched on google because I was not sure about the date, found 1861 but then wrote 1887. Silly brain :blink:.
Also, a Vanguard Party cannot force the people to do anything. It is to serve as an ideological leader for the people, formed by a core of intellectuals who are "professional revolutionaries" who will spred marxist ideology along the working class. If the proletariat does not buy what they preach, they are powerless. I am not completely fond of the idea of a vanguard party, but it is valid in theory. It is important to make it clear that I'm not quite the leninist myself, but as the SFIO made a sharp turn to the right and we are not allowed to form new parties, I opted for the Gauche Radicale as it is the most ideologically close.
Last edited:
