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That is a very good point, but I think it's an acceptable simplification for a video game to make. Even Vic 2 doesn't go to the extent of modeling companies, so I don't blame HOI3 for not even trying! It's too bad money is so useless in HOI3 because it'd be cool if there was a way to trade money for units (maybe they could enter the queue partially built to represent that the buying country just has to train the men?).
That's actually one of the bits of HOI2 I miss, tech teams being actual companies or people. So you could tell Supermarine to go off and develop your new fighter or whatever.

I certainly agree actually modelling companies would be a step too far. But detaching licence building/buying from diplomatic relations would surely have been possible and would certainly help - no need to build up good relations or worry about borders, just have some cold hard cash.

Very hard agree on money being useless in HOI3 and it is a bit of a missed opportunity, but if I start on that we will be into @Wraith11B dream to completely tear apart and rebuild the game engine! Which is a plan I entirely support but is perhaps off topic from your AAR. ;)
I think the solution is to not build any aircraft at all! I think they're just too expensive for my limited IC, and there aren't enough airfields to make them very useful IMO.
Very cunning. :D
 
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That's actually one of the bits of HOI2 I miss, tech teams being actual companies or people. So you could tell Supermarine to go off and develop your new fighter or whatever.

I certainly agree actually modelling companies would be a step too far. But detaching licence building/buying from diplomatic relations would surely have been possible and would certainly help - no need to build up good relations or worry about borders, just have some cold hard cash.

Very hard agree on money being useless in HOI3 and it is a bit of a missed opportunity, but if I start on that we will be into @Wraith11B dream to completely tear apart and rebuild the game engine! Which is a plan I entirely support but is perhaps off topic from your AAR. ;)
I have to admit they leaned (sorta) the right way in HoI4 with the designer and production system. Not, you know, a great system, but certainly an approach I can respect.

Certainly, I'm doing my best to try and edit as much as I can reasonably do to make my future AAR a success without bogging down the system too much like BICE. As much as we all say "choice should matter!" there is a bit of a limit on what one person can do.
 
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I have to admit they leaned (sorta) the right way in HoI4 with the designer and production system. Not, you know, a great system, but certainly an approach I can respect.
I must admit from my brief dabbles in HOI4 that bit does seem a bit of an improvement over HOI3.
Certainly, I'm doing my best to try and edit as much as I can reasonably do to make my future AAR a success without bogging down the system too much like BICE. As much as we all say "choice should matter!" there is a bit of a limit on what one person can do.
This is a reassuringly realistic view of things, it bodes well for your future success. I would say that one way to implement "choice should matter" is to remove the choice, if two outcomes are actually fairly similar then there's no real value in the decision. That at least is my view, though BICE I think takes the view that more choices = more immersion.
 
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I was going to say...they sort of try to simulate this in hoi4 domestically (at least) with company designer designations.
 
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I must admit from my brief dabbles in HOI4 that bit does seem a bit of an improvement over HOI3.
One of the few improvements.
This is a reassuringly realistic view of things, it bodes well for your future success. I would say that one way to implement "choice should matter" is to remove the choice, if two outcomes are actually fairly similar then there's no real value in the decision. That at least is my view, though BICE I think takes the view that more choices = more immersion.
Yes, the distinction should matter, on balance. I also agree that BICE does overwhelm with decisions that are in no way necessarily relevant. For instance, what's the difference between the various headquarters? Aside from being fancy and having an appropriate division logo, almost nothing...
 
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That's actually one of the bits of HOI2 I miss, tech teams being actual companies or people. So you could tell Supermarine to go off and develop your new fighter or whatever.
Also, I believe in HOI2 DH you actually use money to fund your tech teams and intelligence service which actually makes money relatively important. And having the companies is a nice touch for sure, although I do think HOI3's leadership system is nice just for allowing divisions to have a lack of officers, differentiating them in another way besides just tech level.

For instance, what's the difference between the various headquarters? Aside from being fancy and having an appropriate division logo, almost nothing...
Huh, I didn't realize BICE went that far in the immersion direction, although it really doesn't surprise me. It's a bit disappointing they add all these choices to a grand strategy game that really don't matter. I'll continue to trumpet HPP's support brigades as a huge improvement over vanilla or BICE, taking away some choices (do I use ART or AT) in favor of a more meaningful/bigger change.

Echoing the other comments, I like HOI4's production model, it's just unfortunate they made the war portion of the game worse. HOI3's AI is hilariously bad, so I still don't understand how they came to the conclusion that should be the intended/encouraged way to play HOI4.
 
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But detaching licence building/buying from diplomatic relations would surely have been possible and would certainly help - no need to build up good relations or worry about borders, just have some cold hard cash.

I'm sure a lot of that can be fixed by re-coding the licensing script. There might be some thing that can't be fixed, though, e.g. if PDS have put in hard-coded rules affecting land-locked countries.

Also, I believe in HOI2 DH you actually use money to fund your tech teams and intelligence service which actually makes money relatively important.

I would like more ways to spend money, yes. Money is certainly not important to those countries that have plenty of it, but it is needed to buy resources and (as we've seen) to license equipment. Hopefully you won't run out.
 
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I'm sure a lot of that can be fixed by re-coding the licensing script. There might be some thing that can't be fixed, though, e.g. if PDS have put in hard-coded rules affecting land-locked countries.
That would be a pretty neat feature!

I would like more ways to spend money, yes. Money is certainly not important to those countries that have plenty of it, but it is needed to buy resources and (as we've seen) to license equipment. Hopefully you won't run out.
I think I'll be just fine with money in this game. Oil is bringing in a ton of money, and I could even raise more money by raising taxes if I wanted to. I'd be curious how else money could be used in HOI3. Any ideas?
 
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That would be a pretty neat feature!


I think I'll be just fine with money in this game. Oil is bringing in a ton of money, and I could even raise more money by raising taxes if I wanted to. I'd be curious how else money could be used in HOI3. Any ideas?

Yeah I think some kind of money system would be good for small and undeveloped nations that nonetheless could spend big with the eye-watering amounts the government is being paid to let other nations take their national resources.
 
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Part 10: Saadabad Pact
The Saadabad Pact

Years of diplomatic work culminated in July of 1937 with the signing of the Treaty of Saadabad in Tehran. This was a non-aggression pact among Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan that was binding for five years and could be renewed with unanimous agreement. The chief goal was to improve Middle Eastern relations and acted as a logical culmination of diplomacy during Reza Shah’s reign. Since coming to power, the Shah had desired to stabilize relations with his neighbors and ensure peace and prosperity within the region.

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Iran and Turkey had formalized relations in the first year of the Shah’s rule, promising friendship, neutrality, and non-aggression between them. Perhaps most importantly, both states agreed to not support rebels in the other and even raised the possibility of cooperating against any rebels, particularly their Kurdish minorities. This relationship was further improved by the signing of a treaty that formally defined the Turkish-Iranian border. This was followed by a visit to Turkey in 1934, wherein Reza Shah toured the country, observed Ataturk’s modernization efforts, and left greatly impressed. Much of Iran’s modernization efforts of the 1930s would be based off those carried out in Turkey which could be attributed to the impressions left by this trip.

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Reza Shah (left) and Ataturk (right) observing a Turkish military demonstration

Iraq had long been a battleground between the Ottomans and Persians, but Iran and the newly independent Iraq did not formalize their diplomatic relations until the signing of the Treaty of Saadabad. Part of the treaty was focused on settling Iran and Iraq’s dispute over the Shatt al-Arab, an important waterway that marked the border between them. Both countries used this route to export much of their oil and had a financial interest in settling the dispute. The border was set to the low-water mark on the eastern side, except near Abadan and Khorramshahr, giving Iraq control of most of the waterway. This meant Iranian ships must pay tolls to use it. Some Iraqis raised the issue of Khuzestan, a largely Arabic speaking province of Iran, but the military government of Bakr Sidqi ignored the issue since it was not interested in Arab nationalism. These settled the flashpoints between Iran and Iraq, but extremists on both sides could claim their nation had been wronged in the agreement, sowing the seeds of future disputes.

Afghanistan’s new king, Zahir Shah, and his more progressive prime ministers had been instrumental in organizing the Treaty of Saadabad. Afghanistan had remained diplomatically isolated from much of the world until joining the League of Nations in 1934. This was followed by a series of trade agreements with various nations. There was also an effort to improve relations with Iran by formalizing the border and settling disputes over water usage. All of this allowed the countries to cooperate and encouraged further prosperity in the region.

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Zahir Shah, the young king of Afghanistan

With his diplomatic success, Reza Shah’s attention soon returned to his modernization projects. Further improvements in education were beginning to bear fruit (Note: another 0.5 LS), allowing further funding to be dedicated to improved officer and infantry training. At the end of July, the 4. Infantry Division finally finished its training and was deployed to the outskirts of Tehran. This allowed additional resources to be poured into the German-supplied support equipment, bringing it closer to completion.

At the end of October, a new infantry training manual was completed, allowing substantial work to be put into the development of grand battle plan doctrine.

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With a formal program of infantry training developed, Iranian recruits received basic training which provided more skill but slightly slowed down the rate of training from before. Reza Shah felt this minor sacrifice was essential in building a disciplined, modern military that could defend the country. Purchasing the best weapons would be useless if the soldiers were too cowardly and clueless to use them.

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With a basic training program developed to instill discipline and basic weapon skills, the High Command turned to considerations of what tactics the infantry should employ. Similar to operational doctrine, there were a number of proposals which could be summarized as firepower, shock, or infiltration. Firepower focused on increasing the number of heavy weapons while shock advocated direct assaults against the enemy. Finally, infiltration suggested the infantry should use the terrain and maneuver to defeat their opponents.

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Reza Shah and his generals selected infiltration tactics as the IIGF’s primary focus for three reasons. First, Iran’s rough terrain lends itself to mobile, skilled infantry units that can exploit the terrain and surprise unprepared opponents. Second, the IIGF already had some experience in the usage of infiltration tactics due to the institutional memory of former Cossack Brigade members and lessons learned in battles with rebels and nomads. These tactics had proven effective and possible to implement, and the Shah could see no reason to move away from them. Finally, the High Command visualized three potential enemies: the Soviet Union, United Kingdom, or rebels. Neither the Soviets or British would be prepared for the rough terrain of Iran while rebels had best been countered by mobile infantry and cavalry units that could track them down and defeat them. It would take time to implement this new infantry doctrine, but the Imperial Iranian Ground Forces were beginning to bring their training and doctrine in line with their new equipment. Reza Shah was quite proud of the military he was beginning to forge and could only wait for all his investments to bear fruit.

Note: This update covers a wide variety of topics, so hopefully it sparks some interesting conversation. First, the Saadabad Pact isn't represented in HPP, just non-aggression pacts that are put in place at the start of the game. This doesn't really bother me since it was more just a normalization of relations and settling of various minor disputes rather than truly militarily focused.

Second, the division of the Shatt-al-Arab was a key part of the Iran-Iraq War of OTL since neither side was particularly happy with the breakdown of land and the Iraqis also wanted to take Khuzestan, an Arab majority province in Iran.

Zahir Shah is also a very interesting character, reigning from 1933 to 1973, he didn't start modernizing Afghanistan until the '50s. He managed to create a constitutional monarchy in 1964 before he was deposed in a coup in 1973 while in Italy. He then remained in Italy until 2002 when the Taliban were driven out. He likely would have been restored as shah had the US not been very opposed to it because Zahir was popular with almost all factions since his reign had been peaceful and relatively prosperous. He died in 2007, so it's unlikely he would have been able to make much difference in Afghanistan, but it's an interesting counter-factual to consider. I don't know much about his son, so I'm guessing he was not as inspirational a figure as his father.

As far as basic training goes, I was forced to switch from minimal training since my technologies were too advanced. I didn't realize this was even a feature, although it does make sense. I'm a bit divided on this since I liked the discount in training time available with minimal training.

I decided to go with infiltration doctrine for a few reasons. First, I think it fits well with Iran's position as I explained earlier. Second, I've never used it before and would like to see how good it is. I'll be curious what those that have played HPP think.
 
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Things seem to be going relatively well...
 
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Things seem to be going relatively well...
I'd say so, but things will start to pick up as we get closer to exciting times in OTL. The pace should start to pick up soon, I just wanted to get a bunch of background information in early on.
 
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The historical cover for the game system is great! Love it.
 
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Neither the Soviets or British would be prepared for the rough terrain of Iran
It is this kind of incisive military insight from the Shah that explains why Iran was liberated so quickly during the Anglo-Soviet invasion.

The Saadabad Pact always seemed more about the symbolism than anything else - look at us, signing treaties, declaring pacts and making bold statements. The Soviets at the time claimed it was all a British scheme, but then the Soviets at the time said a lot of things that weren't true so that probably says more about Stalinist paranoia than actual reality.

A minor amusement, Iran's violations of the Pact ended up being quoted by British officials as part of the justification for the invasion, as seen in a contemporary newspaper article. Looking at the wider terms of the Pact (the members pledged groups hostile to the other Pact members to operate on their territory) it's arguably even true, though I have no doubt the invasion would still have happened even if there had been no Pact.

In any event the whole of that front page is interesting, seeing all the surrounding news stories really puts things into context, as does the reaction of the surviving Pact members to the invasion.
 
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An interesting look at Iran's diplomatic situation. Infiltration sounds like it's the best choice for Iran just based off the flavor text. What actual bonuses does it give?
 
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I'd be curious how else money could be used in HOI3. Any ideas?

One thing that came to mind is that it would be logical if it actually cost money to maintain your military, although I haven't yet thought of a good way to implement that in pracice.

This was followed by a visit to Turkey in 1934, wherein Reza Shah toured the country, observed Ataturk’s modernization efforts, and left greatly impressed. Much of Iran’s modernization efforts of the 1930s would be based off those carried out in Turkey which could be attributed to the impressions left by this trip.

Ah. That makes it much easier to understand Reza Shah's direction of travel.

Finally, infiltration suggested the infantry should use the terrain and maneuver to defeat their opponents.

Given Firepower is expensive and the regional geography favours Infilitration, that's probably the choice I would have made as well.

First, the Saadabad Pact isn't represented in HPP, just non-aggression pacts that are put in place at the start of the game.

Given the NAP exists at all, I would argue the Saadabad Pact is represented - and I'm quite impressed somebody was aware of it. :)

As far as basic training goes, I was forced to switch from minimal training since my technologies were too advanced. I didn't realize this was even a feature, although it does make sense. I'm a bit divided on this since I liked the discount in training time available with minimal training.

Yes, I though that made sense when I put the feature in, but it does make your forces a little more expensive to build. Just for the record, this is the only time you will be forced to upgrade your training law.
 
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The historical cover for the game system is great! Love it.
I thought that the area n/a pact had to be fiction, stopped reading, checked and just as you wrote. Thank you for the wonderful background.
I'm glad to hear you've been enjoying it!

The Saadabad Pact always seemed more about the symbolism than anything else - look at us, signing treaties, declaring pacts and making bold statements. The Soviets at the time claimed it was all a British scheme, but then the Soviets at the time said a lot of things that weren't true so that probably says more about Stalinist paranoia than actual reality.
I agree that it was mainly for sorting out relatively minor issues and played up as something much more significant. That's funny the Soviets blamed it on the British, but that's about par for the course with them.

A minor amusement, Iran's violations of the Pact ended up being quoted by British officials as part of the justification for the invasion, as seen in a contemporary newspaper article. Looking at the wider terms of the Pact (the members pledged groups hostile to the other Pact members to operate on their territory) it's arguably even true, though I have no doubt the invasion would still have happened even if there had been no Pact.
That's a very interesting source. Obviously a bit biased since they have to dramatically play up the German threat, but it's interesting to see the justification anyways. The violation of the Saadabad pact is also interesting, although it's a bit hard to decide what constitutes rebels and is open to interpretation, but there's at least a solid case there. I also agree the invasion would have gone forward either way, there was far more than just Saadabad to motivate it.

What actual bonuses does it give?
It gives bonuses to fighting in rough terrain (hills, mountains, forests). I'd have to doublecheck if it gives any bonuses for marsh or desert.

One thing that came to mind is that it would be logical if it actually cost money to maintain your military, although I haven't yet thought of a good way to implement that in pracice.
That would make sense, although it would be difficult to balance.

Given the NAP exists at all, I would argue the Saadabad Pact is represented - and I'm quite impressed somebody was aware of it. :)
That is a good point, and it really is a nice touch either way.

Yes, I though that made sense when I put the feature in, but it does make your forces a little more expensive to build. Just for the record, this is the only time you will be forced to upgrade your training law.
I actually liked the event because it makes sense, even if it was something that wasn't optimal for gameplay. It's nice to know that's the only change that will come though.
 
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Another to check out and a game I know 0% about. Excellent work Rusty! Though would you mind not adding to my list of really great AARs to read? I'm struggling to catch up as is x-x.
 
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On the last two chapters:
The artillery consisted of many different guns from multiple countries in various calibers.
Probably no in game effect, but that kind of thing should really make for logistical chaos, some kind of penalty.
We'll just have to chalk this up to game mechanics I suppose.
Ah, sometimes for the story’ sake it’s better to roll with the punches than fulminate against the developers, no matter how justified it may be. Because there will be plenty of keen eyes and sharp pens among the commentatAARs to perform that public service! :D
Let’s see… Echoes will be done by 2026, then there’s that Italian post-war AAR I’m waiting for the Vicky 3 Cold War mod before starting… then there’s the 18th century project I’ve been wanting to do forever… then there’s the long-threatened Redadder spin-off…

How does 2038 sound? :p
No, just do all of them at once, to the exclusion of everything else! :D Including sleep, food, etc
My current record is ten years and a mighty zero finished AARs, so still plenty of time to disappoint you yet. :p
Neither Rome nor the Pyramids were built in a day. ;)
Much of Iran’s modernization efforts of the 1930s would be based off those carried out in Turkey which could be attributed to the impressions left by this trip.
An interesting observation looking at it now from the Iranian rather than Turkish perspective.
Iraq had long been a battleground between the Ottomans and Persians
Of course, and before that Rome/Constantinople. What‘s a couple of Millenia between frenemies? :p
First, the Saadabad Pact isn't represented in HPP, just non-aggression pacts that are put in place at the start of the game. This doesn't really bother me since it was more just a normalization of relations and settling of various minor disputes rather than truly militarily focused.
So long as there’s a desired narrative effect in there somewhere.
He likely would have been restored as shah had the US not been very opposed to it because Zahir was popular with almost all factions since his reign had been peaceful and relatively prosperous. He died in 2007, so it's unlikely he would have been able to make much difference in Afghanistan, but it's an interesting counter-factual to consider.
Interesting, if I’d ever briefly known this I had forgotten it. Rather poignant at the moment.
 
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