• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
1589353416056.png


Dear all,

The clusterf**k above has rendered me beyond incensed. The incompetence manifest in handling the forum 'upgrades' of late has gone from mere irritation to a tragicomedy. To all of you who bother to post, with good humour and pithy insights, I am so sorry that your content has been lost.

Given this nonsense, I will deal with your contributions now - although I assess the chances of another calamity turning it into Wingdings or just removing it entirely as 50/50.

Primacy? It's a bit late for that. First amongst equals perhaps, and only because its peacetime. Japan and the US are almost up to tonnage, and the latter poised to take primacy with some investments. There'd have to be a Anglo-franco union to catch up at this point.

Yes, but you're dealing with a British Establishment that, believes, quoting Andrew Marr freely, "to be British is to thrill at the White Ensign." These people still believe that the RN is the biggest (it is, just) and the best in the world.

The work of an engineer is long and laborious - and thankless :)

Eden ... do we get a hint here of something not quite so placid? Eden, in OTL of course, eventually saw a line cross he could not abide. In this update it seems we have a glimpse of that might-have-been. Of course, this Eden will end up facing some different challenges all too soon.

Yes you do - although, being balanced, it is easy for Eden to be hawkish, this isn't his department and the problems with the RN are Monsell's not Eden's.

? They weren't or were well funded? I presume ww one was extremely overfunded because of the battleship war, unless they skimped on everything else to keep up? Was the whole 'more powerful than the next two navies combined' a fairly temporary thing at the end of the 19th century then? Makes sense when you think about it, a terribly expensive undertaking when several other industrialised world or continent spanning empires exist simultaneously.

They were well-funded, to the dismay of the Liberals...

Some catching up - first, the second last chapter:
It is your reality now, so the resemblance is neither too little or too much: it is exactly as it should be! ;)
There is always another one until, well, the Allies just get tired of them and end up resignedly going to war from moral exhaustion.

Having sat in on and led (at different levels) many international meetings - some on rather fraught topics - it is interesting to see (and sometimes in the fine print to interpret) the difference between actual or diplomatic ‘misunderstanding’. Sometimes the misunderstanding is actual, with the two separate conversations at intellectual cross purposes. More often, it is one side making a point or pursuing a line the other is well briefed on and understands very well, but refuses to even acknowledge, let alone engages with. Could be to show disdain for the point/other side, or conversely to avoid the appearance of disagreement by simply ignoring a difficult topic. One suspects such nuance and sensibility would be something well beyond Ribbentrop’s repertoire

That matches my experience. I have observed, or been in the driving seat, in some truly pointless meetings.

So in the 1890s it all came together - capacity, political will, funds. It all ends up with the Grand Fleet of WW1. That said, by 1914 the naval race with Germany was won, and the money was just starting to be turned off when the war started.

I agree - and while the Liberals deserve a ton of criticism, they did give the Empire an exceptional fleet in terms of size and platforms. 'Tis a shame that no one really knew how to fight with them...

Latest episode: I admire the style and character you invest the characters with. You really make them come alive. As mentioned in my comments on the previous chapter, I mind not a whit whether they remain 100% historically accurate, especially as the historical PODs multiply, or not. :)

You're very kind.
A great update. As I have said in the past there can be no such thing as too many Royal Navy updates in a British AAR. I hope the battleships do end up being up gunned. I know the terrifying cost makes it unlikely but a man can dream. Oh and I am pleased to see you have plans for Ramsey, his rather casual relationship with the truth OTL might make him an interesting person to write TTL, but of course that's just my impression.

I will put Ramsay in, it might be a while but I have an idea for an update where he and Baldwin will meet.

Well, looks like the latest forum maintenance ate some of the posts I (and a lot of other people) made earlier today :\

Don't have the will to recreate the whole thing from memory again, but suffice to say that from what I know about the KGV class's service history, I do agree that they got a bit of a bad rap due to circumstances beyond any inherent flaws in the ships themselves, and one of the chief culprits of that just so happens to be someone introduced in this latest chapter...

Thank you for reposting. As I said, I'm incensed...
 
Like @Specialist290 my reply was eaten by Paradox, so please accept this less than elegant substitute.

I am generally unconvinced by Monsell and this chapter has not helped matters. A man who doesn't even know how large his own dockyards are is probably unfit for the role - Devonport and Rosyth were both good for ~50,000t ships and Vanguard fitted in most places without issue and she was well over 43,000t standard displacement. Roll on the arrival Goodall and a return to competence and thence greatness.
DYAEiOu.gif


A great update. As I have said in the past there can be no such thing as too many Royal Navy updates in a British AAR. I hope the battleships do end up being up gunned. I know the terrifying cost makes it unlikely but a man can dream.
The first part is obviously correct. The second further confirms Monsell's utter unfitness for the role. A triple 16" turret is roughly the same weight as a quad 14". The KGV basic hull and structure was designed for 3 Quads (to get 12 guns) so could easily take the upgrade. Swapping a turret and hoists, and mucking about with the magazines, is not easy but it is a long way from a major rebuild. Say a year from being taken in hand to being recommissioned with the fleet, cost (finger in the air a bit here) would be about £2million vs £8million for a new KGV or £4million for a Illustrious carrier.

So I can see why for KGV and PoW you don't do it, you need those ships in service and can't afford the delay or tying up the dockyard workers, and of course Nev will veto the extra money. But, once the Japanese reject the treaty and everyone pull the trigger on the escalator clause, you can make the swap for the later ships in the class at no real extra cost - there are plenty of triple turret and 16" gun designs lying around the place. Definitely Anson and Howe, probably DoY as well, really should have had the triple 16".

But as mentioned the ships were good enough, once the bugs had been ironed out of the quad turrets the 14" did the job. Even Prince of Wales was ultimately let down by being rushed to the tropics and not getting time to get her radars, fire controls and 2dr pom-poms working properly in the humidity. Had her AA fit being working properly she would have survived, despite her Admiral's best efforts.

Finally Anglo-Soviet naval diplomacy was a pointless mess of lies and deception that was ultimately a complete waste of everyone's time, not least mine in reading about it. I advise your to steer very well clear.
DYAEiOu.gif
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
View attachment 576774

Dear all,

The clusterf**k above has rendered me beyond incensed. The incompetence manifest in handling the forum 'upgrades' of late has gone from mere irritation to a tragicomedy. To all of you who bother to post, with good humour and pithy insights, I am so sorry that your content has been lost.

Given this nonsense, I will deal with your contributions now - although I assess the chances of another calamity turning it into Wingdings or just removing it entirely as 50/50.

I don't know about anyone else from The Sceptered Isle, but personally I am finding the temptation to indulge in gratuitous understatement regarding the forum right now so strong as to be almost irrestible.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I don't know about anyone else from The Sceptered Isle, but personally I am finding the temptation to indulge in gratuitous understatement regarding the forum right now so strong as to be almost irrestible.

They haven't got it quite right yet.

To repost my comment on the gun situation. As Pip said, it wouldn't be too hard to fix if they wanted to, and as we know (and they don't) this all turned out to be irrelevant anyway because not only do big guns not matter anymore, neither do battleships.
 
not only do big guns not matter anymore, neither do battleships.
HMS Warspite would disagree :)

But seriously, too many people think the situation as existed in 1945 existed in 1939. It didn't.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I have only in the past 24h discovered this fantastic AAR. Such quality writing! I'm no such expert on the political side of the War, excluding that Churchill was PM, so this is an enjoyable education. Looking forward to seeing where the PODs take you and how the war progresses!
 
HMS Warspite would disagree :)

But seriously, too many people think the situation as existed in 1945 existed in 1939. It didn't.
Absolutely and it was far from obvious it would exist. Indeed without the war it is very likely naval warfare in the 1940s would look different; 'wrong' ideas and doctrines would not be shown to fail, no war-time panics either and jets/missiles starting to become a thing. It is not out of the question that in such a scenario you would get ship-mounted missiles before air launchable ones (early tech was crude and heavy) so where better to put these new weapons than on your well protected and radar covered battleship?

Doubt it would actually happen that way, but it would be fun if it did. :)
 
Just to get everything laid out in one place, I decided to do an inventory of what was available in 1936 in terms of naval aviation.

United Kingdom: Six carriers operational (Furious; Glorious; Courageous; Argus (in reserve); Hermes; Eagle (undergoing refit)), plus Ark Royal under construction. Of the extant ships the "Curious, Spurious, and Outrageous" trio are the only ones capable of operating a proper-sized fleet carrier air wing, but come with all the baggage of being conversions from another class of warship; Ark Royal will be the RN's first purpose-built fleet carrier, but won't be commissioned until 1938.

United States: Four carriers operational (Langley; Lexington; Saratoga; Ranger), plus three fitting out or under construction (Yorktown; Enterprise; Wasp). Langley is tiny, and in the process of being converted to a seaplane carrier. "Lady Lex" and "Sister Sara" still have their 8-inch "emergency" main guns in place, and will keep them until 1942; the Navy was planning on removing them earlier as part of a general modernization but couldn't spare them. Ranger is the first purpose-built US Navy fleet carrier, but is too small to keep up with the steadily increasing size of modern carrier-based aircraft and will largely be relegated exclusively to the (relatively) less dangerous Atlantic Ocean until late in the war.

Japan: Four carriers operational (Hosho; Akagi (undergoing refit); Kaga; Ryujo), plus four fitting out or under construction (Soryu; Hiryu; Chitose; Chiyoda), not counting three "shadow ships" currently being built as fleet auxiliaries but intended for light carrier conversion as yet another of Japan's attempts at skirting around the naval treaties. Hosho, Ryujo, Chitose, Chiyoda, and the "shadow ships" are (or will be) all light carriers with accordingly bite-sized air wings. Soryu and Hiryu will be the IJN's first purpose-built fleet carriers upon completion.

In summary, materially they're all in about the same boat at this time: Two or three proper fleet carriers operational with a few more on the way, plus a small heterogeneous collection of aging experimental carriers and maybe some purpose-built light carriers. Certainly nothing like the unending tide of mighty Essex-class carriers (plus light and escort carriers) that poured forth from American shipyards by the latter half of the War, or the armored-deck titans of the Royal Navy's Illustrious class.

Doctrinally and operationally: There's still some debate over whether carriers are viable as independent strike craft or should remain relegated to support roles for the classic battle line, and really won't be truly settled until after such spectacular demonstrations as at Taranto, Pearl Harbor, and Midway. The Royal Navy particularly is hamstrung by the fact that the Fleet Air Arm is still under the control of the Royal Air Force, and is rather low (to put it charitably) on the RAF's priority list.

The other naval powers are basically non-entities in naval aviation by comparison. Germany has nothing, although the Graf Zeppelin class is in the planning stages; Italy has nothing, and apparently has no plans for a fleet carrier; France has the Bearn, a converted battleship with an undersized air wing for a fleet carrier.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions:
To add to @Specialist290's excellent roundup - it is also about the aircraft themselves. In 1936 for naval aircraft we are still firmly inthe biplane era - by way of example the Swordfish is the new plane on the deck in '36.

Another perspective is that history provides effectively no examples of what an effective naval aviation strike force could do against effective naval AA. For various reasons that match-up never really happened, for reasons like Prince of Wales being hampered by not being prepared for tropical conditions as @El Pip mentions. Also Japanese naval AA was pretty much terrible, in part due to an abysmal weapon system, but also because they never adopted the radar assisted systems that propagated through the RN and USN. In contrast the RN and USN adopted some truly excellent weapon systems, in particular the 40mm Bofors (and USN view by the late war being that if there was a space on deck you stuck a Bofors, and if there wasn't space for a Bofors you put 20mm Oerlikons). These systems were aided by radar assisted fire control greatly increasing their already considerable effectiveness. By that time though Japanese aviation was a shadow of its former self.

Even in the case of Bismarck you have an example of a very effective aircraft - the Swordfish - against a largely ineffective naval AA suite, in large part due to poor design.

However, by '43 the writing really was on the wall for the battleship imo - but it wasn't aircraft per se. It was Fritz X. But that's a whole other story :D
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Or in short, the battleship is irrelevant:)
 
Vexing though the forum updates have been, the trouble has at least given me a little extra time to go back and take in the last update. As I have said before, I’m afraid I have to feign ignorance on the matter of naval mechanics in-game – and, it has to be said, IRL. (I do wonder, trying to follow the debate in the comments over various details in naval history, whether this is perhaps how my own readers feel when I try and subject them to lengthy updates on, say, post-war architecture – or the state of the various left-wing movements of Twentieth-century Britain. :p) But as ever, @Le Jones, your knack for writing these establishment figures going about their business keeps everything engaging. I particularly enjoy the sense of Eden as a man somewhat rushed off his feet, desperately trying to wrestle some sort of coherent position out of his (as you say) unwieldy portfolio.

I enjoy also the hint that we have some more ministerial drama to come in the next update. Will be eagerly looking out for that! :)
 
(I do wonder, trying to follow the debate in the comments over various details in naval history, whether this is perhaps how my own readers feel when I try and subject them to lengthy updates on, say, post-war architecture – or the state of the various left-wing movements of Twentieth-century Britain. :p)
Post-war architecture - Terrible. Things got better once everyone sensible realised Le Courbousier was a sadistic idiot, but the immediate post-war stuff was grim or tacky. Or occasionally both.

The state of the various left-wing movements of Twentieth-century Britain - More concerned with purity than power and internal heresy hunting than convincing the electorate.

Job done. No idea how you could possibly drag out either subject into even a short paragraph. ;) :D

Now back to naval engineering and ship design, truly meaty subjects worthy of considerable discusion and debate.
 
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
1589578104985.png


Chapter 13, Chartwell, 8 April 1936

Baldwin had retired to Chequers over the Easter break. The Cabinet had held an inconsequential meeting to discuss the ongoing Italian offensive in Ethiopia, the German Rhineland plebiscite, some economic proposals from Chamberlain, and some initial discussions on the King’s coronation plans. The only thing of consequence had been virtually waved through, and so with relief (that the matter had been universally approved) and trepidation (at what must be done), he had dispatched the news to those interested parties.

One of those parties was dressed in the least statesmanlike way imaginable, with a disgustingly muddy blue suit, a battered homburg on his head. In one hand he held a trowel, dripping with cement, the other was clutched greedily at a cigar. He saw a figure approaching and, tossing the cement-encrusted cigar aside, glowered.

1589578145825.png


“Bloody cement is too wet,” he said to no one in particular. The figure approached.

“Darling, I’ve got Roger Keyes on the telephone, from his constituency.”

“Is it about Baldwin?” He virtually shouted.

“How would I know, I went to get you.”

He felt a heavy feeling descend upon him, the old dog of depression; surely he thought, if it was good news the old bugger would have telephoned me rather than Roger. “Bugger it. On my way.” He threw out a filthy hand towards his wife.

“You’re a mess!”

“Compared to Stanley bloody Baldwin I come with the cleanest of hands” he riposted. “He is nothing but a countrified businessman who seemed to have reached office by accident.” He stomped towards the pantry and grabbed the phone, wondering if he had been too damming in his verdict on the Prime Minister.

“Winston? Winston?” Keyes’ voice rasped down the receiver.

“Hello Roger, how are we?”

“You’ll never guess what he’s done now. The Defence Coordination job.”

Churchill’s fears were confirmed. “Go on," was all that he could say.

“Sir Thomas Inskip.”

The syllable, when it came, was in an eruption of volcanic rage. “No!”

“Oh yes, Winston. The Cabinet met yesterday. Wood didn’t want you, neither did Runciman. Margesson was particularly hostile.”

Churchill chuckled, bitterly. “Quite the tally of enemies I have.”

“Your people are out of the Cabinet, Winston, not in it!” Keyes was angry, more so that Churchill didn’t seem particularly enraged.

“But the Daily Telegraph article?”

“The one saying that your name was being ‘prominently mentioned’? Don’t think that it came up.”

“Anthony?”

Keyes paused, suggesting, at least in Churchill’s assessment, that Eden had been Keyes’ mole in the Cabinet. “Anthony is keeping his powder dry. He wants to sort out rearmament, but with Baldwin and Neville bloody Chamberlain calling the shots.”

Churchill huffed his agreement. “Ah Neville, the heir presumptive.”

“A ha,” Keyes agreed. “And that’s part of it. Sam Hoare has been open that Baldwin will not have you in the Cabinet when the discussion of the succession comes up. He thinks that having you in the Cabinet would be disruptive.”

“Thank you for letting me know, Roger,” Churchill growled. “Austen wants to meet next week after Easter, I wondered if this was the topic.”

“Probably,” Keyes said, before adopting a more gossipy tone. “Y’know that Austen turned it down before it was even really offered, argued passionately that you were the stand out man. Even when Neville was offered the job.”

“Neville Chamberlain at Defence Coordination?” Churchill was chilled by that news.

“Yes. Still Baldwin’s loyal deputy, living in Eleven Downing Street, just moved sideways in Cabinet. Baldwin thought that Neville could do the job.”

“That man,” he said to Clementine who was hovering close by, as much as Keyes over the phone, “knows nothing about foreign and defence affairs. Occasionally he stumbles over the truth, but hastily picks himself up and hurries on as if nothing had happened.”

“So, Winston, it’s Inskip. A laywer with no record on defence or foreign matters.”

“I thought, for a moment, after the Goertz case…”

“…stop dreaming, Winston. He’s tucked away, in prison. He got his four years.”

“But I thought that it might catalyse our Cabinet, get them induced, into action!”

Keyes adopted a sarcastic tone. “It has, Winston, they’ve given us the gift of bloody Inskip!”

“Thank you for telling me Roger, we shall speak again, soon.”

He replaced the receiver and scowled at Clementine. “I now realise, Clemmie, that that bloody man will not tolerate me in his Cabinet by choice.”

1589578305146.png


“Can some of the backbenchers cajole him? Maybe Bracken?”

“He is unassailable, Clemmie, just as the Beaver said after the election, I am finished,” he said forlornly. “Baldwin has such a majority that he does not need to take make compromises.” He sagged onto a stool, half dried globs of cement falling all around him to Clementine’s disgust. Clementine, knowing the symptoms of the ‘black dog’ of depression that occasionally descended, quietly left him to it.

He had been too bold, he realised, and too confident in assuming that Baldwin would send for him. The PM was too much of a ‘leave it alone’ man to want the Churchill juggernaut careering around his Cabinet. He accepted, and had quickly accepted, that he had lost the battle over the Defence Coordination job. His next skirmish was likely to come over the proposed Ministry of Supply. He would be more discreet, he would make it clear that what mattered was that that the thing was established with the right man, not necessarily his man (or him), in post.

But he still had to do something about bloody Inskip. All he had, he thought sadly, were words. Perhaps, of all his great gifts, his constant companion had been bloody words. Words spoken, at rallies, in the Commons, words written, in his books, and in the newspapers. It was this latter form that had suddenly gripped his imagination. He was going to write, in a strident but not too challenging way, on the state of Britain’s foreign relations. He snatched, greedily, at a pen and on the back of a scrap of paper (coming from one of Clemmie’s magazines: he made a mental note to make it up to her). It was incoherent, and lacked a structure, but it was a start as he scribbled.

“The Germans claim that the Treaty of Locarno has been ruptured by the Franco-Soviet pact. That is their case and it is one that should be argued before the world in The Hague. The French have expressed themselves willing to submit this point to arbitration and to abide by the result. Germany should be asked to act in the same spirit and to agree. If the German case is good and the League pronounces that the Treaty of Locarno has been vitiated by the Franco-Soviet pact, then clearly the German action, although utterly wrong in in method, can not be seriously challenged by the League of Nations.”

“I desire to see the collective forces of the world invested with overwhelming power. If you are going to depend on a slight margin, one way or the other, you will have war. But if you get five or ten to one on one side, bound rigorously by the Covenant of the League of Nations, and the conventions which they own, then you may have an opportunity of a settlement which will heal the wounds of the world. Let us have this blessed union of power and of justice: ‘agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him’.”

“I believe that we shall find our greatest safety in cooperating with the other powers of Europe, not taking a leading part, but coming in with all the neutral states. We shall make a great mistake to separate ourselves entirely from them at this juncture. Whatever way we turn, there is risk. But the least risk and the greatest help will be found in recreating the Concert of Europe.”


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

GAME NOTES

I agonise over Churchill – doing him justice is so hard.

If this Chapter feels haphazardly written then I apologise; it started off by being focussed on Baldwin at Chequers, summarising the points that led to Churchill being kept out of Baldwin’s cabinet (more on this later) and Inskip, in a textbook example of ‘last man standing’, being the nominee for Minister for Defence Coordination. Then it became Winston, in his garden reading a letter from Baldwin telling him why he wasn’t going to be put forward (entirely fictional, there was, as far as my research can find, no direct contact between them), and then, after realising that the wily Baldwin wouldn’t take the political risk of committing his thoughts to a man deemed so unstable as Winston was, you had this, a tip off from an ally. Given that most of the gossip came from Cabinet, it would have had to have come from someone there – I’ve floated Eden (but kept it vague), but Duff Cooper and Walter Elliot were also involved in the debate about this and neither was keen on Baldwin’s ideas.

The list of candidates was as mad as I have portrayed: Churchill, (Austen) Chamberlain, (Neville) Chamberlain, Walter Elliot, Ramsay Macdonald (astonishingly) and Sam Hoare, all were touted as potential candidates, which says, in my view a lot for the lack of vision for the role and the freedom of manoeuvre available to Baldwin. The quotation from Beaverbrook cited by Churchill is true, and eerily prescient; Baldwin was so secure in power that he could afford to deal with Churchill most carefully. But was he hostile to Winston? There are many views on this from arguments that he wanted Winston kept out of the way, to others in which he is playing a canny game by prophetically lining Winston up for wartime leadership. There is a quote, which I have seen in a number of sources, saying “we must save Winston to be our fighting Prime Minister.” How accurate this is (or even if it was said at all) is debatable, but perhaps I am prejudiced. For me, the bottom line is that Baldwin wanted a harmonious Cabinet, with measured rearmament and a light touch on foreign affairs. Churchill at Defence Coordination would have been wonderful to watch, but would have created (for Baldwin) as many headaches as it solved.

The reference to the ‘Goertz’ case is the infamous spying case of Hermann Goertz, who was convicted of spying the week after the Rhineland action. I would, genuinely, have loved to have been his defence barrister. “Members of the Jury, you must banish from your mind all that you have heard and read about Germany over the weekend” does not make for compelling advocacy! He was, as Winston mentions, sent to prison for four years a couple of weeks later.

Keyes was real, and lived an incredibly rich life with successful careers in the Royal Navy and then in Parliament. His finest moment, as a Parliamentarian, was probably his contribution (in full uniform, defying Parliamentary convention) to the Norway Debate in 1940.

And so, we have Churchill, in the wilderness (although still well connected) making walls in his garden. For the photo alone, I have enjoyed creating this update.

@El Pip: I’m going to disagree on a couple of points, rarely. Monsell did as good a job as a Cabinet Minister in Stanley Baldwin’s National Government was ever likely to (yes, that bar is very, very low). I think that you expect too much of him – it’s the job of his civil servants (and in the case of a military ministry, the ‘uniformed’ flunkies) to inform him. He was, I think, misinformed, in a suite of areas. Having Tom Phillips on the Naval Staff can’t have helped…

I also think that you’re underplaying the requirements of swapping the 14” for something, well, bigger, and I will explore this after the political detonations are out of the way. I appreciate that this is the lawyer lecturing the engineer, armed with nothing more than GCSE physics and maths (and the good grades obtained despite staring at Sarah H’s bottom for the better part of two years), but the guns and their storing, delivery and firing system is, in many ways, the ship. I can only think to the nightmare of the recent T45 fiasco, built around a (world beating) radar and the Aster missiles. I’m not sure that such a change was within the UK’s means at this stage – and I think we’re at the last easy moment to start mucking with the build.

@stnylan: I can only apologise for the outburst mon brave. I genuinely love reading comments, even @El Pip's :p, and am grateful whenever someone takes the time to offer their thoughts. To have that effort wasted because of incompetence is maddening.

@Cromwell: Thank you, Sir, as ever.

@TheButterflyComposer: Yes, but this is ’36 not ’45 (or even ’41) and that isn’t known yet. And I am not writing them off just yet – to quote Eric Grove (he’s a hoot, BTW, if you can hear him speak) “the best thing to kill the other person’s ugly monster is your own ugly monster. At least until naval bombing comes into its own.”

@stnylan: Agreed.

@Captured Joe: I’ve always been a Renown fan – heaven knows why! Although (and I’ll get my coat) I love Vanguard. I think that she is a beautiful ship, despite her armament.

@cm_spitfire: Welcome! Take a seat, make sure your blackout curtain is in place, tune into the wireless, and there’ll be some Woolton Pie ready in a bit. I genuinely hope that you continue to enjoy the AAR.

@El Pip: Completely agree – a different set of circumstances would require a different solution.

@Specialist290: Thank you for the summary – I agree that the three big naval powers all have a reasonably similar set up.

@stnylan: Agreed – and in 1936 foretelling any of this would be a folly.

@TheButterflyComposer: I’ve often wondered about the shape of an RN that does something utterly radical after the Washington Treaty (sort of like the French had to with their contre-torpilleurs, but for bigger ship types, and on a grander scale).

@DensleyBlair: Sorry! I’m trying to please a broad church here!

As for postwar architecture, some of it is truly awful, but there is something to the Barbican in London (I know that’s a minority view). My own part of the world gave us, however, these horrors on the eye:

1589578997548.png


1589579009740.png


1589579025047.png


Yup, it’s pretty grim.

As for left wingers, truly heroic struggles misled by well-meaning but incompetent or criminally malignant leaders.

@El Pip: Ha! I think we’ve done navy stuff for a while…
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I think you've captured something of the essence of Churchill here - including (not least) the inability to pigeonhole him, the liveliness of his mind and the rapidity of his ideas, and the yawning gulf that he frequently battled with his entire life. For the writer of historical fiction there is just too much of Churchill. I mean even his life before HoI4 game start is scarcely believable. One cannot, ultimately, truly encapsulte such a person - one can only hope (as I believe you have done) give a sense, an estimation. One cannot trap such people on the page, ultimately you have to let them run free in the imaginations of one's readers.

I found the little window on your composition process for this update fascinating. What I like about this approach is it fits in with the back-door routes of power that have already been displayed, and will no doubt be displayed again.

Roger Keyes - another fascinating character all but forgotten today. Though I am aware of his political career and know of his role in the Norway debate my knowledge of him is mostly from earlier on in his naval career.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Sorry! I’m trying to please a broad church here!

Oh, nothing to apologise for! As I say, it’s all very compelling – and an education to boot! :)

As for postwar architecture, some of it is truly awful, but there is something to the Barbican in London (I know that’s a minority view). My own part of the world gave us, however, these horrors on the eye:

The Barbican is lovely – though I’m more partial to Golden Lane personally. From the look of that Metro sign, would I be correct in thinking you are perhaps surrounded by the fruits of T. Dan Smith’s dubious campaign to modernise British living?

Meanwhile, a lovely character study of your Churchill. As @stnylan notes, it is in many ways a thankless task trying to write him; any portrayal will doubtless be filled in by readers in possession of their own opinions. Having met him in my own AAR a decade prior, during his calamitous term at the exchequer, it’s certainly a different note seeing him as the slightly amiable bricklayer cum statesman-in-waiting. I confess, my own views of the man are perhaps out of step with what I sense might be the majority opinion in this thread. ;)

Meanwhile, what has Eddy been getting up to amidst all of this? Not still sidelined at county fairs I presume? :p
 
An interesting Churchill aside. Others have nicely observed what I would say is your nice light brushwork in painting him here. Not an easy portrait to paint when one diverts from mere reportage of his speeches or published words and delves into character and imagined conversation and thought processes! Bravely done.

One gets the impression all this discussion of democratic, parliamentary and governmental processes still on a largely historical track is about to be ‘PODed’ (to coin a rather vulgar verbed-up acronym) by the exercise of a certain uncrowned and not very democratic King’s Prerogative!
 
I appreciate that this is the lawyer lecturing the engineer,

Oh this should be good.

For the writer of historical fiction there is just too much of Churchill. I mean even his life before HoI4 game start is scarcely believable.

You do wonder sometimes how the hell did that MP who believed in his own ideals so much that he crossed the floor and helped depose the Lords became The Prime Minister of the 20th century. Let alone how the man largely responsible for Gallipoli ended up being beloved in popular anglosphere culture.

One gets the impression all this discussion of democratic, parliamentary and governmental processes still on a largely historical track is about to be ‘PODed’ (to coin a rather vulgar verbed-up acronym) by the exercise of a certain uncrowned and not very democratic King’s Prerogative!

I do wonder a thing that. So far it's good historical fiction of what happened, with a few twists. But where are the Paradox turns? Where's the Belgium invading Iceland and Mexico destroying Germany and all that? I mean honestly, it's a HOI aar and the French have yet to do anything insane. What an amateur. ;)
 
One gets the impression all this discussion of democratic, parliamentary and governmental processes still on a largely historical track is about to be ‘PODed’ (to coin a rather vulgar verbed-up acronym) by the exercise of a certain uncrowned and not very democratic King’s Prerogative!

The usual term of art is "butterflied," incidentally, by way of reference to the butterfly effect... but POD'ed works fine, too ;)

----

As the others have said, @Le Jones, I think you've done well enough at capturing something of the spirit of Churchill, as infamously difficult as it is to get a sense of the whole man beyond the pop-culture image everyone has of the "Blood, Toil, Tears, and Sweat" speeches.

Ironically, he's a bit like King Edward VIII in that way -- everyone has an opinion on him, but he seems to be either lionized or demonized (albeit more tend to fall in the former camp than for Eddie), with one side trying to put him on a pedestal and the other trying to drag him down into the mud without either side really wanting to really engage with him as the complex, controversial, and often mercurial figure that he is (and even was at the time).
 
  • 1
Reactions: