The Little Dux

[El Pip]

I could perhaps re-write it to skip ahead a few years from when he is rescued at aged five to...idk, eight? when Leone comes to stay for the first time. That would make Cosma (barely) eight years old, Leone seven and a half and so on and so forth.

Would that be better? In your opinion?

I wouldn't say better, there is nothing particularly wrong with the writing.

What I would say is that so far the maturity of the ideas you want to discuss, doesn't match up with the ages of the characters (even allowing for precociousness) and that very slightly jars on me. It's a writing nuts and bolts efficiency thing I suppose, why make life hard for yourself writing young children voices if you aren't going to use the fact they are young and have that childish view of the world, a very precocious child defeats a lot of the point (unless them being precocious is an important character trait that has to develop very young, for whatever plot reason).

That said I wouldn't say it needs a re-write, I suspect I am in a tiny minority on this one. By all means carry on, it will be fine.

 

[Bullfilter]

If I'm going to use the CKII ages, dates and events then they sort of need to be this age, or at least born in those exact years. Curiously enough, my first draft had Cosma being discovered at 18 and becoming the Dux immediately because all the families had accidentally killed each other and he was the only viable heir left. But if he was left in the conditions he was in until he was in his teenage years, he wouldn't be able to speak or walk properly, much less run a city state. And it strains believability for every House to murder every other house to well, and then for the city to except Cosma so readily, so I rethought.

I could perhaps re-write it to skip ahead a few years from when he is rescued at aged five to...idk, eight? when Leone comes to stay for the first time. That would make Cosma (barely) eight years old, Leone seven and a half and so on and so forth.

Would that be better? In your opinion?

Maybe, but the story remains enjoyable and you have worked to build the story and characters to this point. I think El Pip may have the right of it in terms of age and sophistication (I was making a similar point more mildly in my earlier comment, though focusing on Leone, who is even younger). But first, you get some license because you are trying to tell a complex story through the eyes of children.

Second, rather than jumping too far forward, you could perhaps just cover the early years here more briefly, or in episodes covering some key, formative or memorable events. And/or use a few adult voices or perspectives of those looking after or interacting with the children to cover some aspects where a child’s voice that young can’t credibly.

Or even tell the story through Cosma’s eyes, but recollecting events from a few years hence, maybe as an adolescent before he takes power, but remembering events that were crucial in his story and development. That might help with both the voice and also perspective. But I think children often have more adult or sophisticated things to say in books and movies than is likely in average real life and we let them get away with it. You’re being adventurous in this story, so I for one am happy to cut you a bit of slack here, TBC.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I wouldn't say better, there is nothing particularly wrong with the writing.

What I would say is that so far the maturity of the ideas you want to discuss, doesn't match up with the ages of the characters (even allowing for precociousness) and that very slightly jars on me. It's a writing nuts and bolts efficiency thing I suppose, why make life hard for yourself writing young children voices if you aren't going to use the fact they are young and have that childish view of the world, a very precocious child defeats a lot of the point (unless them being precocious is an important character trait that has to develop very young, for whatever plot reason).

That said I wouldn't say it needs a re-write, I suspect I am in a tiny minority on this one. By all means carry on, it will be fine.

Maybe, but the story remains enjoyable and you have worked to build the story and characters to this point. I think El Pip may have the right of it in terms of age and sophistication (I was making a similar point more mildly in my earlier comment, though focusing on Leone, who is even younger). But first, you get some license because you are trying to tell a complex story through the eyes of children.

Second, rather than jumping too far forward, you could perhaps just cover the early years here more briefly, or in episodes covering some key, formative or memorable events. And/or use a few adult voices or perspectives of those looking after or interacting with the children to cover some aspects where a child’s voice that young can’t credibly.

Or even tell the story through Cosma’s eyes, but recollecting events from a few years hence, maybe as an adolescent before he takes power, but remembering events that were crucial in his story and development. That might help with both the voice and also perspective. But I think children often have more adult or sophisticated things to say in books and movies than is likely in average real life and we let them get away with it. You’re being adventurous in this story, so I for one am happy to cut you a bit of slack here, TBC.

There's the unsolvable issue of all the characters being written, for the most part, with grammatically correct English and speaking and living lives that forward a narrative (as opposed to real life which is never that structured). In this case there's also the issue of the fact that these two boys are not really in a position to remain innocent. Cosma has been tortured for most of his life and Leone was born during the Mad Doge's insane period and has seen how it hurt his own family. Both one day will have to take charge of or be at least a big player in the running of a Venetian family, and the Master is their teacher. In these ways I think they have to come to terms with and learn about adult things pretty early on. Do they comprehend them? Not really, but that doesn't mean they don't think about them, talk about them or try to act like they understand them.

They are young and I do want to showcase their lack of understanding, even as they gain more knowledge (which I think was better handled when they were learning about Bastian). I suppose they have a childish view of the world but know certain things that go directly in the face of that, but haven't figured it out yet. And their capacity to tell stories to themselves about how they feel and what they think even when its clear they think and feel differently is present too (Cosma's worry about his smallness and in this chapter, how he instantly writes off and hates the village for being smelly and comes up with many more reasons to hate it as he walks through the street).
The very beginning of the story could be tweaked so that it is an older Cosma directly telling us that he is about to talk about his life as he recalls it though I thought I didn't really want to outright say that when I was originally writing it. I always saw it as a story he was telling himself as he was living it, as many people do.

Good responses guys, thanks very much. I shall think on this further. Anything else?

 

[Bullfilter]

I shall think on this further. Anything else?

Just tell the story that needs to come out and don’t worry about us too much - we’ll just think of the boys as being clever and having had to grow up before their time

 

[JabberJock14]

In terms of the content, this chapter does a nice job at introducing new characters and giving them, well, character. Elisa shows through nicely in this scene. She has spunk - I hope she sticks around later on, when Cosma does become Doge.

As for the character speech/age question - yeah, they do tend to speak better than kids their age should. In general it seems like you're writing the kids' dialogue a year or two ahead of where they should be. For example, my son is about to turn three, and while he can form full (but short, simple) sentences, it often takes a while to get out. And the concept of age (we've been trying to get him to say he's three) is still kind of a mystery to him. So Clotilde being able to get out her sentence about her name and age is probably not something a two-year-old could do. Three at the earliest and understanding the conversation well enough to jump in probably would be closer to a four-year-old.

So the idea of having everyone two-three years older is not necessarily a bad one. You're not far off where they'd need to be teens or anything, but those few extra years makes a huge difference in development. Again, from personal experience, my son at two could not express himself in sentences. Now at three, he can do that, identify colors and numbers (up to 10), etc.

Or even tell the story through Cosma’s eyes, but recollecting events from a few years hence, maybe as an adolescent before he takes power, but remembering events that were crucial in his story and development. That might help with both the voice and also perspective. But I think children often have more adult or sophisticated things to say in books and movies than is likely in average real life and we let them get away with it. You’re being adventurous in this story, so I for one am happy to cut you a bit of slack here, TBC.

This is another solution worth considering. That would make sophistication of the children is then more of an unreliable narrative situation - let's be honest - part of the reason it's hard to write in a children's voice is because we don't remember ourselves when we were limited in vocabulary and experience. In re-telling it, Cosma would likely be able to add sophistication his younger self lacked. And he likely would do the same for everyone in the scene.

The narrative set up for that could be tricky - does every story start with a 10 or 11 year old Cosma reflecting? He is learning, so perhaps a lesson takes him back to a memory? Like I said, the set up each chapter could be more trouble than its worth.

Ultimately, it's an enjoyable narrative with lively characters and clear points to each chapter - so you've nailed the key parts! The age aspect is a relatively minor thing.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

In terms of the content, this chapter does a nice job at introducing new characters and giving them, well, character. Elisa shows through nicely in this scene. She has spunk - I hope she sticks around later on, when Cosma does become Doge.

Mm. Well, anything is possible...

As for the character speech/age question - yeah, they do tend to speak better than kids their age should. In general it seems like you're writing the kids' dialogue a year or two ahead of where they should be. For example, my son is about to turn three, and while he can form full (but short, simple) sentences, it often takes a while to get out. And the concept of age (we've been trying to get him to say he's three) is still kind of a mystery to him. So Clotilde being able to get out her sentence about her name and age is probably not something a two-year-old could do. Three at the earliest and understanding the conversation well enough to jump in probably would be closer to a four-year-old.

Well I based the relative age to dialogue off of myself and my brother from what recordings we have (since we trust our memories as much as any responsible scientist does...which is not at all) and the children I've worked with in the past. This may have biased the speech towards the higher end of competence but we've known near-absolute mutes with excellent reasoning and abstract thought skills at aged five. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn where the kids go from above average to extraordinary but Cosma is definitely supposed to be the latter, and the other three have some wonderful genes and family backgrounds (we'll get to that, House Galbaio was where paradox seemingly dumped all the clever AI in my game) , plus future things to build up to.

The narrative set up for that could be tricky - does every story start with a 10 or 11 year old Cosma reflecting? He is learning, so perhaps a lesson takes him back to a memory? Like I said, the set up each chapter could be more trouble than its worth.

He's the sort of person that would do something like that if he was bored or was beginning a journal about his life (which he would only be comfortable reflecting on years after...that business in Venice). It would be no more challenging than writing those scenes tastefully.

Perhaps we can take advantage of the story book elements being used here? The chapter titles, quite a bit of the naration and the ongoing plot right now all fit into a storybook written for children, perhaps even a bedtime story written by Cosma. It has simplifications, his past views as he remembers them, slightly larger than life characters that would come from childhood impressions and lessons that would be valuable for a child to learn. Doable?

Ultimately, it's an enjoyable narrative with lively characters and clear points to each chapter - so you've nailed the key parts! The age aspect is a relatively minor thing.

True. It would perhaps be something that gets better with time as we read on and learn more so that it's something that gets explained with more chapters and rereading old ones. This is where this format might hurt the story a little.
However it may also be a problem with the writing and thus this format helps isolate it and improve it so the whole things gets better. Since the overall aim is a good read, I don't really mind if it's one or the other, so long as it's good in the end.

 

[JabberJock14]

This may have biased the speech towards the higher end of competence but we've known near-absolute mutes with excellent reasoning and abstract thought skills at aged five. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn where the kids go from above average to extraordinary but Cosma is definitely supposed to be the latter, and the other three have some wonderful genes and family backgrounds (we'll get to that, House Galbaio was where paradox seemingly dumped all the clever AI in my game) , plus future things to build up to.

Cosma isn't necessarily the main offender - he is the oldest between him and Leone and since he is a genius, that he's a bit ahead of the curve makes sense. But it may be difficult pairing him with Leone, who comes across as equally genius (or perhaps moreso, given than he's on a very similar level despite being a year and a half younger) since they probably should be operating on different wave lengths. Likewise Clotilde is advanced as well (I get that too - it's hard to give a two-year-old dialogue). Elisa, I'm not sure about. I actually imagined her around 12/13 based on her listing of chores/taking care of children, though that may have been too old. Which points to the potential issue that it's not Cosma, but the need to surround Cosma with his peers forces everyone to be a bit ahead of where they perhaps should be.

We're in the weeds with that level of critique though. It's not that big of a deal and while interesting discussion material, isn't worth stressing out about.

He's the sort of person that would do something like that if he was bored or was beginning a journal about his life (which he would only be comfortable reflecting on years after...that business in Venice). It would be no more challenging than writing those scenes tastefully.

Perhaps we can take advantage of the story book elements being used here? The chapter titles, quite a bit of the naration and the ongoing plot right now all fit into a storybook written for children, perhaps even a bedtime story written by Cosma. It has simplifications, his past views as he remembers them, slightly larger than life characters that would come from childhood impressions and lessons that would be valuable for a child to learn. Doable?

Him writing a children's narrative of sorts could work - though I admit not being well versed on when narratives specifically for children became commonplace. Or him telling the story to his children aloud?

Another option might just be a journal of sorts? Or, to use a CK2 flavor bit, a monk writing a family history?

But yeah, don't get too stressed about it, especially if you aren't going to be spending a ton of time with them at this age. As they grow older, this will become less of a issue. And it's not really that big of an issue now - more of a refinement.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Cosma isn't necessarily the main offender - he is the oldest between him and Leone and since he is a genius, that he's a bit ahead of the curve makes sense. But it may be difficult pairing him with Leone, who comes across as equally genius (or perhaps moreso, given than he's on a very similar level despite being a year and a half younger) since they probably should be operating on different wave lengths. Likewise Clotilde is advanced as well (I get that too - it's hard to give a two-year-old dialogue). Elisa, I'm not sure about. I actually imagined her around 12/13 based on her listing of chores/taking care of children, though that may have been too old. Which points to the potential issue that it's not Cosma, but the need to surround Cosma with his peers forces everyone to be a bit ahead of where they perhaps should be.

We're in the weeds with that level of critique though. It's not that big of a deal and while interesting discussion material, isn't worth stressing out about.

Him writing a children's narrative of sorts could work - though I admit not being well versed on when narratives specifically for children became commonplace. Or him telling the story to his children aloud?

Another option might just be a journal of sorts? Or, to use a CK2 flavor bit, a monk writing a family history?

But yeah, don't get too stressed about it, especially if you aren't going to be spending a ton of time with them at this age. As they grow older, this will become less of a issue. And it's not really that big of an issue now - more of a refinement.

Elisa is ten, and she does far more than she should because she sort of has too, as well find out next chapter. Clotilde I think will have her dialogue taken out or heavily reduced down. She is, going off ingame stats and effects, pretty clever herself but I agree she's too young here. I think Leone and Cosma develope into intellectual peers that focused their energies in different pursuits (not so much going off stats here but what they both achieved in game and so on) so whilst I might look through his diaulogue again or mor likely barenit in mind going forward, he isn't too handicapped by Cosma right now because Cosma's not been in education and free for long enough yet for his real genius to start pulling him away from 'normal children' whilst Leone's younger but has advantages the other hasn't had. When they get a bit older and start splitting into their respectively interests, then they'll both leave each other behind in their chosen subjects.

All good thoughts on narrative framework. Children's stories don't really become a thing for a long time but Cosma could always push the boat out a little...though I think a youngish preteen writing about his 'younger years' would probably fit quite will too, and then voice becomes far easier to maintain. Since the narrative never sways from Cosma and we get his thoughts from the third person perspective I would say it's already debatable as to if an older aversion if him is the narrator. But we'll confuse on and review this issue later to see if it's gotten better or worse. They won't stay this age for much longer (I'm thinking next chapter then an age up of at least two years or more) because it time for us to go on. We don't really need to watch them learn to do everything as they go after all (riding an shooting and the academics will take years regardless) but I do want to show snapshots of these characters development, slowly reveal more knowledge about the adult characters and Venice before the big return. And then we can get in to the actual gameplay and how ridiculously off the wall and inaccurate the CKII republics are, especially Venice!

 

[Bullfilter]

Well, our first kid started using identifiable words for objects and some adjectives or exclamations in correct circumstances at 8-9 months old (had trouble pronouncing them properly, but they were recognisable). And none of them were things we’d taught her. Some quite abstract. It was actually a bit alarming at times! (More below)
Simple sentences at about one year. Never stopped after that .

So Cosma and Leone should go for it!

One example: we used to live under a bit of a flight path (not constant, but regular during the day). We must have remarked a few times, casually to each other, that a plane was going overhead. So, at all of 9 months, we start hearing her insistently using the word ‘panga’ regularly. It took us a little while to work out she was only using it when a plane was going overhead. Dumb parents were a bit slow catching on!

At around the same time, we were on holidays and had her in one of those baby backpacks. We’d been going through dense Tasmanian forest on a bit of a bush walk when we suddenly come into a clearing with a waterfall straight in front of us. Quite surprising and suddenly loud after the quiet of the close forest track.

The small group of people standing around were amused - and we were that and somewhat mortified - when I see this little arm pointing past my ear at the waterfall and a little bell-like voice saying, with perfect pronunciation and entirely appropriate exclamation “s#!t, s#!t!”. . Could’ve been worse . Did the same when the plane took off on the way back home. Again, perfect application She didn’t know it was a rude exclamation!

So, again, just let them go for it! And remember to watch your language around kids, even before they can talk!

PS: she’s now a linguistics honours graduate and about to turn 24, so I guess language was always going to be her thing

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Well, our first kid started using identifiable words for objects and some adjectives or exclamations in correct circumstances at 8-9 months old (had trouble pronouncing them properly, but they were recognisable). And none of them were things we’d taught her. Some quite abstract. It was actually a bit alarming at times! (More below)
Simple sentences at about one year. Never stopped after that .

So Cosma and Leone should go for it!

One example: we used to live under a bit of a flight path (not constant, but regular during the day). We must have remarked a few times, casually to each other, that a plane was going overhead. So, at all of 9 months, we start hearing her insistently using the word ‘panga’ regularly. It took us a little while to work out she was only using it when a plane was going overhead. Dumb parents were a bit slow catching on!

At around the same time, we were on holidays and had her in one of those baby backpacks. We’d been going through dense Tasmanian forest on a bit of a bush walk when we suddenly come into a clearing with a waterfall straight in front of us. Quite surprising and suddenly loud after the quiet of the close forest track.

The small group of people standing around were amused - and we were that and somewhat mortified - when I see this little arm pointing past my ear at the waterfall and a little bell-like voice saying, with perfect pronunciation and entirely appropriate exclamation “s#!t, s#!t!”. . Could’ve been worse . Did the same when the plane took off on the way back home. Again, perfect application She didn’t know it was a rude exclamation!

So, again, just let them go for it! And remember to watch your language around kids, even before they can talk!

PS: she’s now a linguistics honours graduate and about to turn 24, so I guess language was always going to be her thing

Fascinating! My partner is the language student (teaches English to refugees whilst doing their degree) but I've always been amateurly interested in languages and grammar (though for me it comes out in learning languages-doing BSL at the moment) so I am both aware and amazed by humanity's intrinsic grasp of words and language.

I suppose I should focus more on making sure their thoughts and actions remain age appropriate rather than their words. Children can parrot and correctly invoke words all the time but understanding is a bit different. So long as the overall feel of the kids is correct, I'm happy.

 

[Specialist290]

I'm going to echo what the others have said for the most part -- the children's speech does sound a little precocious, but not so much that it detracts from the overall enjoyment of the story itself. In general, literary conversation is much more articulate than real-world speech, so I'd view it as an extension of the same principle.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

True. Very true.
I' really glad that we can have a conversation about writing and characters though. Speaks well to the good community of the forum.

 

[Asantahene]

Some very interesting discussions about the kids. From my perspective, though the boys speech is somewhat precocious I don’t see that it’s unrealistic given their stats. A lot of my psychology doctorate is looking at intelligence in pre-teens and I never cease to wonder at just how bright and articulate they can be at a young age. Similarly my husband is a primary school teacher and some of the tales he tells reinforce that.

So stuck with it I would. Maybe skip ahead a bit but I have been impressed at how you’ve managed to make them look and feel both articulate and childlike...the very definition of precocious surely?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Some very interesting discussions about the kids. From my perspective, though the boys speech is somewhat precocious I don’t see that it’s unrealistic given their stats. A lot of my psychology doctorate is looking at intelligence in pre-teens and I never cease to wonder at just how bright and articulate they can be at a young age. Similarly my husband is a primary school teacher and some of the tales he tells reinforce that.

So stuck with it I would. Maybe skip ahead a bit but I have been impressed at how you’ve managed to make them look and feel both articulate and childlike...the very definition of precocious surely?

For the most part, my feelings exactly. Time skips will be implemented though, and were always going to be implemented because otherwise we'd be here forever...still, it was a good discussion and review of the story so thank you all very much for taking part in that.
Merry Christmas.
By the way, there just so happens to be a place for talking about writing in the AAR community that's just opened up (again, and this time I want it to stay open). So if anyone was looking for a place to talk about aspects of their work or writing or reading in general...

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

UPDATES! (Or : Guess who?)

It has been some time for me but RL beckoned rather forcefully with both kidneys. And then some broken fingers. And a few other things. Anyway...the story has been re-written somewhat in most chapters to contain an in-universe narrative of an older Cosma talking to his second son Filippo about his childhood. This should serve as a good device to get us through that part of Cosma's life up to the time when the pair are talking, which in actuality was only a few years into the game playthrough so there shall be plenty to follow after that!

A sixth chapter is currently in the works and should be coming today or tomorrow depending on editing time. I have to say, re-reading this AAR has been quite special for me since I consider it my best work on the forum and was delighted to remember the little writer workshop/discussion group that sprang up around it. Hopefully, this story can begin again and continue into the future.

EDIT: Yes, this means Albion is coming back too. One thing at a time.

 

[Bullfilter]

Ah, a much anticipated return. Good show! Will get around to re-reading the revised chapters in coming days.

 

[Specialist290]

Excellent Sorry to hear about the issues you've been having, but glad to know that you've come out alright despite them. Looking forward to seeing more!

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Indeed. Good to see you two here.

 

[stnylan]

Will look forward to its resumption.

 

[Asantahene]

Both kidneys? Ouch. Nothing lasting I trust? Hope all is now well mr

How grand to see that you will be returning to the fray with this excellent story which I would agree is your best work. Wilk eagerly await the continuing adventures of the diminutive Doge to be.