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Oct 27, 2008
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  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
This is a rather small and simple cosmetic request. In the past Paradox's Gaelic unit graphics have fallen victim to what I like to call Hollywood "braveheartism" or the "kilted blue-faced barbarian effect".

Essentially, this means usage of laughably anachronistic 18th century Jacobite kilts in 11th century Gaelic unit graphics- as was the case in CK I and CK-DV. Plaid kilts weren't worn in battle until the Early-Modern period- medieval Gaelic soldiers wore ankle-length shirts (lèine), and [if they could afford it: IE, nobility/rich mercenary Galloglaich] ankle-length mail hauberks and conical helmets, such as in the following images:

galloglaigh+IV.jpg


(Anachronistic weapons, but depict well the sort of armour worn by the figures in the above medieval relief)
alexander_mcdonald.jpg


(Somewhat more feasible weapons, not sure about that helmet though)
images


(Early-modern helmet, wearing a yellowish lèine under his mail shirt)
galloglass_soldier.jpg


(Another example of a yellowish lèine)
gallowglass_kern.jpg


I would be eternally, eternally grateful if Paradox broke the Braveheart trope that's oh so common in games like [*wince*] Medieval II TW, etc. An accurate Scottish-Irish sprite would be awesome.
 
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Arrgree!
 
Nice to see I'm not the only one this bothers.

Also, if you look up "Braveheart trope" on Google this thread is now the fifth result. Heheh wut.
 
I'm pretty sure the claidhmores/greatswords in those images are as much a "bravehertism" as the kilts you mentionned ;-) . But otherwise I tend to agree (including barefooted light infantry, resp. light infantry with a single boot/shoe, though the guy in hauberk going into battle barefooted seems odd to me...

P.S.: I just realised all three of those guys wear or carry bascinets, so the images are almost certainly anachronistic. Oh and I, just noticed the silliness of claidhmores worn on a baldric ;-) (ever tried drawing a two handed weapon from a sling on your back? even better, tried putting it back into the sling?)...
 
In all honesty, those troopers look ridiculous. And the first drawing looks like it was made by a guy with very little experience with metal making. What are those helmets supposed to be made of, cloth?? Ivory??

Also the huge swords. WTF. Huge swords are AFAIK an invention of the 15th and 16th century, where you would have big ass guys wielding these awkward things against tightly packed clusters of pikemen with 15 foot pikes. Against a medieval levy with much shorter pikes and spears, there would be no point in having such unwieldy swords, would there?? The relief shows much more realistic medieval swords.

Is that really how scotsmen want to see their characters depicted in a game?? It looks awful.
 
Also the huge swords. WTF. Huge swords are AFAIK an invention of the 15th and 16th century, where you would have big ass guys wielding these awkward things against tightly packed clusters of pikemen with 15 foot pikes. Against a medieval levy with much shorter pikes and spears, there would be no point in having such unwieldy swords, would there?? The relief shows much more realistic medieval swords.

It's a drawing of Albrecht Dürer, so yes it represent, without surprise, a soldier from the 15-16th century.
 
We currently don't know when the game will end. Perhaps that the OP hope that the game will include some of the 15th and 16th century :p
 
Wow you people have GOT to be kidding me. The images are just attempts to throw some bones at Paradox and show the non-use of kilts, not support an academic lecture. Yeah, most of the images show incorrect weapons or (in the case of the third one) later-era soldiers [see below] but way to nitpick and totally miss the point. I used them to give a vague idea of what the first image (the contemporary relief) was depicting. Point is, long shirts, mail hauberks, iron helmets, NOT kilts. End of story. Yeah, go ahead and nitpick the images I agree, that's good if it results in more accuracy, but for frig's sake, no blue-faced barbarians.

I'm pretty sure the claidhmores/greatswords in those images are as much a "bravehertism" as the kilts you mentionned ;-)

Yes and no. In earlier eras they used large axes or shorter swords like in the contemporary relief (which the artists decided not to show for some reason, but I couldn't find better images). Claidheamhan mòra however did begin to appear in the last century of CK. Anyway like I said this is irrelevant I'm not talking about weapons but rather about clothing.

In all honesty, those troopers look ridiculous. And the first drawing looks like it was made by a guy with very little experience with metal making. What are those helmets supposed to be made of, cloth?? Ivory??

Also the huge swords. WTF. Huge swords are AFAIK an invention of the 15th and 16th century, where you would have big ass guys wielding these awkward things against tightly packed clusters of pikemen with 15 foot pikes. Against a medieval levy with much shorter pikes and spears, there would be no point in having such unwieldy swords, would there?? The relief shows much more realistic medieval swords.

Is that really how scotsmen want to see their characters depicted in a game?? It looks awful.

Note, again, that I made no mention of large swords in my text description. In the second image the artist made a mistake in adding them. I was talking about the actual clothes and armour- which for the supposed "awful" second image is quite accurate and follows the above contemporary image to a T, despite failing in terms of weapons. Just look at the relief, then at the second image, just for a second. Yep, reality can be so unrealistic, can't it? As for the helmets, no they are not made of cloth or ivory. Also, just based on the tone of your post I don't know for sure if you're trolling, being honestly ignorant, or both.

I thought the OP wanted to show us true-to-period costumes and weapons of the Scots?
First of all I DID, look at the first (contemporary) image. Thank you.

Second of all, in terms of the modern artists impressions no, you thought wrong: mainly because 100% accurate images don't exist (partially thanks to Braveheartisms and partially thanks to a very small number of images available on-line). The ones I'm showing above and below are the best (IE the least awful) I could scrape off the internet but they're not perfect. You're acting as if I drew them myself. Gimme a break!

I just realised all three of those guys wear or carry bascinets, so the images are almost certainly anachronistic.
Before you said that did you bother even looking at the primary-source stone carving (?) which was the first image I posted? The artist for the second image clearly was making an attempt at drawing whatever kind of sloped-conical helmet the figures in the carving are wearing. If you look carefully at the carving, the back of the conical helmet slopes down to protect the back of the wearer's neck, resembling a bascinet. Thing is I don't know exactly when that carving was made, so the helmets may or may not be true bascinets. In any case, even if they are basinets, who said the unit-sprites had to be from 1066 exactly? In CK I only one unit sprite was used for the whole period- hence a 14th century unit-sprite (theoretically wearing a true bascinet) would be feasable.

(Later-medieval helmet):
369main.jpg


Potentially better weapon (Axes, shorter swords):
images


(Looks sort of late-medieval/early modern in terms of helmet style, but somewhat more medieval weaponry)
galloglass_soldier.jpg


Yeah- that's what I was talking about, lèine. That's what this dude below is wearing, and what the two above are wearing underneath their armour. I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of the vest-like thing the Kern below is wearing but the yellow tunic looks decent enough.

(Ceitherne peasant-levy infantry):
gallowglass_kern.jpg
 
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Wow you people have GOT to be kidding me. The images are just attempts to throw some bones at Paradox and show the non-use of kilts, not support an academic lecture. Yeah, most of the images show incorrect weapons or (in the case of the third one) later-era soldiers [see below] but way to nitpick and totally miss the point. I used them to give a vague idea of what the first image (the contemporary relief) was depicting. Point is, long shirts, mail hauberks, iron helmets, NOT kilts. End of story. Yeah, go ahead and nitpick the images I agree, that's good if it results in more accuracy, but for frig's sake, no blue-faced barbarians.




Before you said that did you bother even looking at the primary-source stone carving (?) which was the first image I posted? The artist for the second image clearly was making an attempt at drawing whatever kind of sloped-conical helmet the figures in the carving are wearing. If you look carefully at the carving, the back of the conical helmet slopes down to protect the back of the wearer's neck, resembling a bascinet. Thing is I don't know exactly when that carving was made, so the helmets may or may not be true bascinets. In any case, even if they are basinets, who said the unit-sprites had to be from 1066 exactly? In CK I only one unit sprite was used for the whole period- hence a 14th century unit-sprite (theoretically wearing a true bascinet) would be feasable.

I noticed the helmets in the fist image and found that rather odd. I do somewhat understand the author of the second image to give them bascinets if that relief was his source. It would be interesting to have a dating for the first image, unfortunatelly I'm not good at interpreting medieval architecture styles and the like...
 
I agree with the OP.
 
I noticed the helmets in the fist image and found that rather odd. I do somewhat understand the author of the second image to give them bascinets if that relief was his source. It would be interesting to have a dating for the first image, unfortunatelly I'm not good at interpreting medieval architecture styles and the like...
I'll try and do some research on exactly that image- my internet's wonky so I haven't been able to. There's basically two possibilities:

1. It is a pre-14th century carving, thus the helmets are unrelated to but coincidentally resemble bascinets

2. It is a post-14h century carving, thus the helmets are most likely some kind of bascinet

Even so like I said- if they are 14th century there's nothing saying Paradox can't use a 14th century sprite, as it does fall under the game's time frame. And frankly I don't care what era is used as long as there aren't kilts and blue face paint, to be brutally honest.

EDIT: Looks like it may be the 14th century. The second picture is of similar figures, dated to 1384.

ttp://ulsterman3.tripod.com/Tomb_Dungiven.htm

Plus a better-resolution image of the original image in the OP:

images


Just an FYI that these are all galloglaich- a fighting style that originated among the Norse-Gaels but was copied by much of the Gaelic world by the high middle ages as Norse-Gael mercenaries became increasingly popular (in Ireland and Scotland) as a hired military elite. I used them as examples because they're pretty much a happy medium between Irish and Scottish Gaels- assuming that CK II uses the DVIP model and has (rather accurately) Ireland and Scotland having the same culture in 1066.
 
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ankle-length shirts /snip/ ankle-length mail hauberks
I don't see anything ankle length, lots of knee length.
Interesting stuff though, Evil Weasel!
 
I'll try and do some research on exactly that image- my internet's wonky so I haven't been able to. There's basically two possibilities:

1. It is a pre-14th century carving, thus the helmets are unrelated to but coincidentally resemble bascinets

2. It is a post-14h century carving, thus the helmets are most likely some kind of bascinet

Even so like I said- if they are 14th century there's nothing saying Paradox can't use a 14th century sprite, as it does fall under the game's time frame. And frankly I don't care what era is used as long as there aren't kilts and blue face paint, to be brutally honest.

EDIT: Looks like it may be the 14th century. The second picture is of similar figures, dated to 1384.

ttp://ulsterman3.tripod.com/Tomb_Dungiven.htm

Plus a better-resolution image of the original image in the OP:

images


Just an FYI that these are all galloglaich- a fighting style that originated among the Norse-Gaels but was copied by much of the Gaelic world by the high middle ages as Norse-Gael mercenaries became increasingly popular (in Ireland and Scotland) as a hired military elite. I used them as examples because they're pretty much a happy medium between Irish and Scottish Gaels- assuming that CK II uses the DVIP model and has (rather accurately) Ireland and Scotland having the same culture in 1066.

Concerning the link (missing the "h" of "http"). The three figures shown there wears gambisons (quilted armour) and a mail coif (essentially what I wear as a late 13th century sergeant-at-arms in re-enactment), unfortunatelly the helmets no longer seem to be visible. That would tend to demonstrate that the drawer of image #2 here in the topic somewhat misjudged image #1 here concerning the odd looking triangular mail coif for an integral part of the hauberk in #1 (I assume that large triangular coif is a local style (14th century I guess)) he also seems to have exagerated the size of those coifs (that big means rather heavy and uncomfortable on the shoulders and not very flexible in movement). But that's enough re-enactors talk that doesn't belong here...

Back to the topic...

The only major limitation I'd put in renderings in game would be that they shoudl be consistant throughout. That is not have 11th century sprites for normans, 14th century sprites for germans and early 16th century for italians. If all have 11th century, fine by me, if all have 15th century fine by me too. Though I'd personally prefer something 13th century, but then I'm a bit biased :) ...