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EU4 - Development Diary - 7th of July 2020

Good afternoon! I am once again eschewing the traditional Swedish summer vacation, this time because I’d prefer to wait until I can safely travel rather than taking a dull staycation in my Stockholm apartment. What that means for you lovely people is that you get summer content dev diaries! Let’s get right into it!

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Those of you who know me even slightly will be aware that I love all things South-East Asia (SEA). After 2.5 years on the project, I finally have the opportunity to create the SEA map rework of my dreams. Shown above is Mainland SEA. Burma/Myanmar is excluded from the map rework as I feel that the treatment I gave it during the development of Dharma still holds up. There will certainly be new content for nations in that region however, including what another dev fondly described as the “Shan mission stick” when we played MP this weekend.

The country setup has not been radically altered. The only new additions to the 1444 setup are the tribes inhabiting what is today the Central Highlands of Vietnam. I have, however, added many new provinces and increased the total development of the region significantly. According to the logs, the indo_china_region now contains 64 provinces with 542 total development. Note that these numbers, like all numbers presented in dev diaries, are not final. I’m especially satisfied with how Lan Na fits into its 5-province state, bordered on its west by impassable terrain. Speaking of impassable terrain, the Annamite Range now separates Vietnam from much of Laos, making Dai Viet a drastically more defensible nation.

A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities. We’ll talk about various ways that this will be achieved another time, but one prerequisite for the goal is having nations to vassalize:


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Several releasable nations now have cores on territory held in 1444 by Lan Xang and Dai Viet. These nations actually already exist in the game files, but are very rarely seen in 1.30 due to their lack of cores. Unfortunately there aren’t really any sensible ways that I’ve found to divide Ayutthaya or Khmer, though in Ayutthaya’s case Sukhothai can still serve as a vassal to which you can feed your Thai provinces.


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I’ve also taken a look at culture groups in the region. Central Thai and Northern Thai are now simply “Thai”, which belongs to the Siamese culture group that it shares with Lao and Shan. Countries in this culture group are able to form Siam, though Ayutthaya can only do so via its new mission tree. The “Indochinese” culture group is admittedly fairly arbitrary, but does serve to encompass regions of “natural” Vietnamese expansion on their “nam tiến” (southward advance). Cham has been moved to this group to reflect that we no longer equate culture and language.


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Next week we’ll take a similar look at Maritime SEA - modern Indonesia and Malaysia. In terms of scripted content you can expect plenty of historical events, mission trees, disasters, government reforms, estate privileges, and more from the 1.31 update. We’ll get to these in later weeks, but for now that’s all I have to say. Until next time, have a good week!
 
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@neondt will this patch be accompanied by a model update or unit pack? The generic unit models for Asia are awful and outdated at this point.
 
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I got a lot of good information from articles published in the Journal of the Siam Society. I recommend 'PIRACY, SMUGGLING, AND TRADE IN THE RISE OF PATANI, 1490-1600' by Francis R. Bradley for example. I also trawled JSTOR for anything interesting using the names of nations from the period as keywords.
I honestly LOVE that content designers take a dive in jstor. That's what makes PD great.
 
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Totally agree, even just a -1000 modifier for making an alliance/tributary that has its capital in the chinese superregion (without being the Emperor) would help. And Ming could have just 4 or 5 missions similar to the Missions Expanded mod: Hire advisor X, get a bit of mandate, etc. without any permaclaims, so just for internal management to counter their superior starting position. This way it would be even fun to play ming
When forming the Yuan Empire, it is more profitable to simply destroy the Ming dynasty and destroy the heavenly mandate than to take it.
Also, the Ming Empire has a celestial mandate, but no tasks. As a result, playing for him is boring, inconvenient and uninteresting. On the one hand - it is strong, on the other - tributaries with no own ways of interaction - they can not be punished, make peace with each other, the annual gold as a tribute is ridiculous, the monarch's glasses - drip well, but this is the only reason they are needed and still get rid of them very quickly. It is the presence of missions that can somehow awaken interest in the Ming Empire.


Sadly EU4 is not about "people" and dynasties, that is why I have high hopes to Imperator, "perfectly" balance along with characters and nations interactions and highest possibilities.

Sadly this more about balance about Ming, they start already so powerful because historically accurate, no problem there, but the AI in a lot of my campaigns they always are stables and powerful, with new missions they will be more powerful, but I will like to see them with few minor missions for the country that keep the MoH like -0,05 autonomy, diplomatic slots or reputation, 5% recovery morale speed, -10% liberty desire in subjects, etc.

But it's not even about the people, it's about the name. If (conditionally) Korea takes the heavenly mandate, it should no longer be called Korea =) maybe some random name of the Chinese dynasty, now there is a mechanism for changing the name of the country without changing the tag.

China in the form of a bot does not know how to play - even if it has a religious reason for war, it prefers to make the country a tributary, losing 200 diplomatic points. I played for China for fun, actively engaged in colonialism, and then moved to play for colonial autonomy and watched what it does. He becomes incredibly strong in the number of his army and in its quality and in the amount of gold, but he is not inclined to territorial expansion. Which by the way is good

And in the end, in the game, the Ming Empire often falls apart, but I have never seen the formation of the Qing Empire, despite the tasks. As the formation of the Yuan
 
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I hope this means the development malus for tropical provinces will be scrapped. It makes little sense when by the mid-late game Dhaka and Ayutthaya had swollen to about a million inhabitants each, larger than any city in Europe.

It won't be scrapped, but it will be mitigated. More on that later.

I think that the Province named Sip Et is incorrect. It is incorrect folklore etymology that the name was Sip Et but misread as Roi Et.

The province name should be Roi Et, according to nowadays historian consensus.

Good to know. Thanks!
 
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When forming the Yuan Empire, it is more profitable to simply destroy the Ming dynasty and destroy the heavenly mandate than to take it.
Also, the Ming Empire has a celestial mandate, but no tasks. As a result, playing for him is boring, inconvenient and uninteresting. On the one hand - it is strong, on the other - tributaries with no own ways of interaction - they can not be punished, make peace with each other, the annual gold as a tribute is ridiculous, the monarch's glasses - drip well, but this is the only reason they are needed and still get rid of them very quickly. It is the presence of missions that can somehow awaken interest in the Ming Empire.




But it's not even about the people, it's about the name. If (conditionally) Korea takes the heavenly mandate, it should no longer be called Korea =) maybe some random name of the Chinese dynasty, now there is a mechanism for changing the name of the country without changing the tag.

China in the form of a bot does not know how to play - even if it has a religious reason for war, it prefers to make the country a tributary, losing 200 diplomatic points. I played for China for fun, actively engaged in colonialism, and then moved to play for colonial autonomy and watched what it does. He becomes incredibly strong in the number of his army and in its quality and in the amount of gold, but he is not inclined to territorial expansion. Which by the way is good

And in the end, in the game, the Ming Empire often falls apart, but I have never seen the formation of the Qing Empire, despite the tasks. As the formation of the Yuan
I think Yuan should not be formed by the AI, maybe in a very successful AI Oirat early war against Ming, but that's it. On the other hand, Manchu should be highly encouraged to invade china. The only times I've seen AI Qing they just stay there doing nothing until Russia claims the Amur and they die. I thought the SEA expansion would be a great opportunity to take a look at the behavior of AI chinese emperors, to make them the juggernaut they should be
 
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Will the Vasall and supercity mechanics be limited to sea or can free cities in the HRE and merchant republics like Venice, Ragusa or Lübeck use them too?
 
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About Dai Viet mission tree, I think you can consult the Dai Viet mission tree in the ET mod. On the other hand, there should be a disaster for Dai Viet. If the legitimacy is 0, Dai Viet will release 2 vassal Annam and Tonkin, King-Lord government enacted(Similar to Shogunate-Damyo government type). Cuz in the past, Annam and Tonkin were not 2 separated independent kingdoms, they both under Le dynasty of Dai Viet, and they were fighting against each other, which means you can't use the regular vassal mechanic. Moreover, in the current game, these 2 nations are Theravada, but in history all Vietnamese were following Mahayana faith, I hope there is a rework for this.
 
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Paris and London already had more population than that.

@ImAdrian yes, pls but just avoid to create new achievements with the idea and the shake of a punch and memes. We prefer alt-history.
Paris in 1444 was only about 200K. London was even smaller like 50K or 100K.

And Paris was the biggest city, now it did take a little hit in the hundred years war and the black death, but still.
 
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I've been researching Southeast Asia a fair bit for a mod I've been working on for some time, and I've compiled a couple of things that should be tweaked or added.
Nguyen Thi Anh should really be a 4/2/2 queen consort with Bang Co Le being the heir.
Nguyen Xi should be a two star general, around 2/3/2/4 siege specialist because of the tactics he invented.
Trinh Kha should have events relating to his power but could also be a level 3 statesman, half off and born in Thanh Hoa.
Sukhothai should be under a personal union (this is iffy because they are not Christian) but it's weird that your vassal has the same king as you and that he may die at a different time.

Hoping they fix that Bang Co Le is magically 22 despite being born in late 1441.
 
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If you love both Southeast Asia and Anarchist literature, then you're in for a real treat with the Art of Not Being Governed.

And yes culture groups in EU4 are messy and arbitrary. They're an eclectic mix of gameplay and historical considerations, bound by a very binary system. It's unfortunately just the nature of the mechanics and I don't see a change coming any time soon.

Yeah, I think trying to fit dynamic cultures or culture groups into EU4 would probably be ill-advised... I would love to see a strategy game that tackles ethnogenesis, but I think it would probably need to be pretty core to the design.
 
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Are we getting a mission tree for Cebu? Would love to see one focused on restoring the Chola Empire while starting out as a very remote fragment of it.
 
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This is fantastic!

Did you also correct the religous setup in Laos?

I can't say I'm well versed on religion in Laos. What do you think needs to change?

I've been researching Southeast Asia a fair bit for a mod I've been working on for some time, and I've compiled a couple of things that should be tweaked or added.
Nguyen Thi Anh should really be a 4/2/2 queen consort with Bang Co Le being the heir.
Nguyen Xi should be a two star general, around 2/3/2/4 siege specialist because of the tactics he invented.
Trinh Kha should have events relating to his power but could also be a level 3 statesman, half off and born in Thanh Hoa.
Sukhothai should be under a personal union (this is iffy because they are not Christian) but it's weird that your vassal has the same king as you and that he may die at a different time.

Hoping they fix that Bang Co Le is magically 22 despite being born in late 1441.

Interesting. I'll look into these things :)
 
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When forming the Yuan Empire, it is more profitable to simply destroy the Ming dynasty and destroy the heavenly mandate than to take it.
Also, the Ming Empire has a celestial mandate, but no tasks. As a result, playing for him is boring, inconvenient and uninteresting. On the one hand - it is strong, on the other - tributaries with no own ways of interaction - they can not be punished, make peace with each other, the annual gold as a tribute is ridiculous, the monarch's glasses - drip well, but this is the only reason they are needed and still get rid of them very quickly. It is the presence of missions that can somehow awaken interest in the Ming Empire.
I don't want to derail the thread by discussing China, but one thing I've been advocating for a while is to give EoC assess to factions even with MoH enabled and on top of (rather than instead of) Estates, so that EoC would have EoC mechanic, tributaries, estates and Factions to play around with hopefully making the game at least a bit more interesting.

Also, I have some other ideas on how to fix EoC:
 
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Hey @neondt i have few questions regarding the new content.

1. I have read comments about Ming mission tree and i have a suggestion. Rather than creating unique mission tree for Ming why not creating Chinese generic mission tree that will be shared between Ming, Ming revolter tags, Mongols and Manchus? The reason why am i suggesting this for Mongols and Manchus is because i have noticed that they have acces to some generic mission tree and this way would make them unique.

2. Would you consider revorking Confuciansim? My suggestion here is to allow Confucian nation to culture convert thru harmonized religion. Again this is only me what do you think?

And last thanks for the Emperor, i'm new player to all of this. I'm realy having a blast in my current Jerusalem and Roman (Byzantium) play.
 
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Will "Siam" have cultural names? Similarly to why we have Malaya and not Nusantara, calling the megaregion Siam only really makes sense as part of a Thai imperial project. E.g. a Chinese cultural nation might call it Nanyang, a Khmr nation Angkor.
 
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