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Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 20th of December 2022 - Unit Pips Rebalance

Hello and welcome to another EUIV DD!

Today we will be talking about the rebalance of the Unit Pips we're working on for the upcoming 1.35 update. This task has been led by our QA Team, which was reinforced throughout the year, and that has been key to the release of Lions of the North, as the new members that have joined the Team credit over 5,000 hours of gameplay on EUIV. But apart from testing the game, they are also involved in the game design process, a classic at Paradox, which usually relies on close cooperation between the different teams. Therefore, this is the proposal we'll be testing in the following weeks, taking also into account the feedback we receive in this DD, of course!



Hello everyone, I'm @Pintu , one of the Embedded QA’s working at Tinto.

I want to show you the rework we are doing on the Unit Pips of the different Techgroups, one of the Systems that saw very few changes since the Release of EU4. As we implemented changes to the Combat calculations in the 1.34 update, we think now it’s a good moment to address this rebalance.

First I want to quickly outline what the Unit Pips do in what parts of combat they matter, for those not as experienced in the game. In each combat phase, Strength Damage is dealt depending on the Offensive Damage Pips of the Units, while Morale Damage is dealt based on Offensive Damage and Offensive Morale Pips. Defending works the same way with the Defensive Pips of the Unit, but half of the Defensive Pips (rounded down) of the Backrow Units is added on top of that. That means that over the course of the game, the priority of pips shifts from having a strong Shock Phase to a strong Fire Phase with a focus on defensive Pips, especially for Infantry.

With this rebalance of Unit Pips we mainly want to focus on Infantry Units that are clear strong or weak outliers on their Tech level and the introduction of more choices in Artillery Units beyond the first Technologies when they become available. As always, these are by no means final numbers and will be under close observation during our Testing, apart from the feedback we are receiving in this DD, so there are good chances these will change until the release of the patch.

One of the swiftly explained changes is that related to Aboriginal and Polynesian Units: both got their total amount of pips reduced, to be in line with the American and African Unit Groups. These changes make them preserve some of their strengths, while not being an outlier over other units.

1AboriginalBefore.png
1AboriginalAfter.png
2PolynesianBefore.png
2PolynesianAfter.png

Now onwards to a change that influences other groups as well, which means they have to get adjusted together. The Anatolian group has a very big advantage with their early Units with their Offensive Moral Damage. We decided to tune that down a little in their Unit Options on technologies 5 and 9. Unfortunately, this affects Muslim Unit groups, which should not have an advantage over Anatolians at that point, which in turn affects Indian Units. That's why we had to tune them down as well.

The Anatolian Group will keep one of their big Spikes in Pips on Tech 12, which will let them be a threat to the groups around them. This is also partly because their Unit will stay around until Tech 18, significantly later than other groups get new units.

3AnatolianBefore.png
3AnatolianAfter.png
4IndianBefore.png
4IndianAfter.png

Speaking of the Muslims, let's take a look at the changes the group got independently from other groups. The Muslim Unit on Tech 23 suffered from both very poor Offensive and Defensive Fire Pips. They do have great Morale and Shock Pips to make up for it, but with the importance of Fire Phase in the later stages of the game, we decided to help them out a little by buffing their defensive Fire on the cost of their defensive Shock.

5MuslimBefore.png
5MuslimAfter.png

The Chinese Group has one outlier in their Unit selection, which is situated on Tech 19, with both 3 offensive and 3 defensive Fire Pips, in addition to 3 Offensive Morale. The one drawback with that Unit is that its successor becomes available only on Tech 25, later than most other groups. Since they have an edge with that against most of their neighboring groups, the solution for this is that they lose one offensive Morale.

6ChineseBefore.png
6ChineseAfter.png

On the same Techlevel, the Nomadic Group has a very solid, while not great, Infantry Unit, that would do with a small Nerf to fit their theme of military decline more.

7NomadBefore.png
7NomadAfter.png

The African Groups (this includes Central, East, and West African), got a small reshuffle of Pips, to make their Last Unit on Tech 30 an actual upgrade over the previous version.

8AfricanBefore.png
8AfricanAfter.png

Last but not least a small change to the High American Group, where their Unit from Tech 18 gets a small bump in Pips. Before this Unit had the same amount of total Pips as the previous unit level.

9HighAmericanBefore.png
9HighAmericanAfter.png

Let's now move on to the Changes to Artillery. These mainly focus on the Introduction of one new Alternative per Unit, which focuses more on a defensive style, where Artillery is used to push half of their defensive Pips towards the frontline while sacrificing their damage output with lower Offensive Fire and Morale Pips. There will also be a small Adjustment on Tech 13, with making one of the Options a defensive one.

10ArtyBefore.png
10ArtyAfterHalf1.png
10ArtyAfterHalf2.png

You may notice that for the new types of Artillery we've just named them the 'Defensive' version of each level. This is not definitive, as it's mainly a placeholder; so, we will accept suggestions for naming each of the unit types.

And this will conclude the Dev Diary for this week and this year. Just like the Idea Group rebalance of last week, we are very eager to read your feedback and suggestions on this topic to improve it as much as possible.

See you at the next DD, on January 10th!
 

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This stack wipe thing will be history when population numbers are put into play and armies just disband and with ck3 you can chase some left overs.
I think eu5 will try to embed guessed population figures. An advantage to the game engine and its game performance unlike with vic3 not every pop needs to be tracked.
The pop is their just as a measurment.
But this is a new feature, or rather bug, introduced in one of last patches.

I'm avare that game devs curretly don't know how they game looks like in multiplayer late game but maybe they should have at least check that? Few months ago war was really fun. You had to properly manage your stacks, reinforce battles, try to intercepts support stacks with your arty stack. Just game where skill could win the war with more powerful enemy. Currently game devs ruined that. Last mp is a clownfest. All players have 1 stack with over million troops. Just that, no skill, no fun. Additionally game is lagging at speed 1 !!!

I have an advise. When introducing new features maybe it's worth to do some regression tests? With people that do understand the game? At this moment you have killed muliplayer games.
 
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Sigh. The Ottomans already vastly underperform their historical counterparts. The last thing they need is another nerf. Quite the opposite--I'd give them their cores on the Beyliks and better CCR value back if I were in charge.

I really hope they get a great mission tree when the Middle East immersion pack is released.
Are we playing the same game? Like 80% of my runs have the Ottomans absolutely ruin Austria, Hungary and Commonwealth. I'd say more often than not they surpass their historical borders in my games.
 
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Are we playing the same game? Like 80% of my runs have the Ottomans absolutely ruin Austria, Hungary and Commonwealth. I'd say more often than not they surpass their historical borders in my games.
i played them only once out of interest to see how they are designed, they seem no challenge to me to play they are to strong
a game who better balanced them was empire total war, but of course other metrics are used etc.
 
This reads more like a overallnerf to everyone outside of Europe. Im not complaining since EU4 was always a assymetrical game. But what purpose could defensive artillery have? You never wanna fight battles anyway since they are a manpower drain with no proper warscore given so why would the player need defensive pips outside of MP or runs where he refuses to ever expand.
 
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I find troublesome some pips that seem like a downgrade from the previous level for certain purposes. In cannons for example: In tech 25 5 offensive pips attack when in tech 29 the best pip for moral damage is only 4. Or in tech 7 2 offensive pips in moral attack when in tech 10 only 1. Obviously the there are more pips over all in the more advance tech but I think a more advance unit shouldn’t be worse than the previously of the same type. What I mean is the first option in tech 10 should be an update of the first option in tech 7 and continue like this. I think this is important to simplify. Also, by doing thinks in this way you can add a description saying “this line of unit is specialized in this ” or even colors to make easier to differentiate. This approach can help new players a lot.

other problem I see is the Muslim group you said “They do have great Morale and Shock Pips to make up for it” my problem with this is the moral pips. Why? Because Muslim group countries don’t have moral in ideas. this makes the pips in this category substantially less important especially because the AI does not try to accumulate mysticism or other moral modifiers to compensate.

I don’t see any change to the early pips for the Africans groups (you only change the late game pips) so I will suppose there are the same. I think they should be nerf. The pips in tech 5 are a total of 6 (for infantry) while in Europe only 3 this was okey when the African tags didn’t have good ideas but now after de dlc of Africa when I try to conquer Africa with Portugal for example, I usually have 25%-75% more casualtys in battle. Something I find counterintuitive, because like the mayority of us I imagine a group of people with lances fighting against firearms and heavy armor troops.
 
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I would really like Middle East DLC/update.
I would like to see both, so I'll be happy either way!

currently in our nightly 1.35 tests ottomans are doing better than in 1.34..
So the Ottomans are more OP than ever. :(
Are we playing the same game? Like 80% of my runs have the Ottomans absolutely ruin Austria, Hungary and Commonwealth. I'd say more often than not they surpass their historical borders in my games.
Same here.

My Friesland run that I just finished yesterday:
02. World map.png

My previous run with Gotland:
02. World map.png
 
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Are we playing the same game? Like 80% of my runs have the Ottomans absolutely ruin Austria, Hungary and Commonwealth. I'd say more often than not they surpass their historical borders in my games.
I think the only reason they arguably dont surpass their historical borders (in most peoples eyes) is because they never control the massive 3-dev deserts throughout the maghreb. As they are, it seems necessary to nerf them, such that you can revise their ancient content and add flavor and much needed QoL to make the Ottos worthwhile to play.

With a caveat: This content would likely need thorough testing to ensure it doesn't outright ruin certain player starts, especially fan-favorite Byz.
 
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The early fire pips of Anatolian, Muslim and Indian tech groups were meant to represent the earlier adoption of gunpowder by the armies of Ottomans, Safavids and Mughals (the so called "Gunpowder Empires") and lategame these tech groups fall behind compared to Western and Eastern by 2 and 1 pips respectively as they should. For cavalry, Western and Eastern lategame units has 21 and 20 pips respectively, compared to most of the other groups' 18 pips. Muslim and chinese groups fare a little better, having maximum value of 19. So the devs are keeping the lategame western edge while nerfing early game advantages other tech groups possessed, disregarding history when it doesn't suit Europe.

Also, Chinese tech group is one of the better ones barring Western/Eastern, they have 19 pip cavalry (most tech groups have 18) and their best infantry unlocks at tech 26 compared to others' tech 30.

Also why are the aboriginal and polynesian lategame pips so high, compared to technologically superior african/native american nations, anything goes I guess.
 
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This task has been led by our QA Team, which was reinforced throughout the year, and that has been key to the release of Lions of the North, as the new members that have joined the Team credit over 5,000 hours of gameplay on EUIV.
Given that you are mostly considered a noob until 1444 hours - that means you've added at most 3 more QA testers or they are all noobs.

I am not sure which is better.
 
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But you do realise, that playing late game on mp game started to be unplayable? Instead of playing the game and use what was the bast in late game you have a shi### game, where you fight With doom stacks because you can get instant sw if they have twice your size? When you add huge perf issues game has in a late when you start to use those few kk stacks it adds to totally broken game after 1750. The same with single Player, when you just abuse this 2x size army thing to wipe all AI enemies. I hope that "some tweeks" will mean like changing this stack wipe rule to like 4-5 Times bigger. Not twice only.


Just think how stupid it is now. You are sieging enemy fort with, Well 240k troops (so waaaay overstacked). Then the Defender just use 500k stack and force march in your stack. You wont react quickly enought to sent instant reinforcements. So after 1750 you will have instant wipe after like 10 days of battle. So as attacker you need to have much bigger stacks end this ends up in stacks of few mln fighting few mln. And one missclick when you and your allies armies won't be combined then you can see stackwipe for 1kk Just because first line broke. So one mistake, one missclick, one lag and your whole army is wiped.
If you play in a gimmicky way to exploit the instant stack wipes, then it shouldn't be expected to have good performance. also idk where you got the double army stackwipe idea from, but it definitely requires far more than double the enemy army to instantly stackwipe them. Otherwise my 20k hussars wouldnt be able to win against 60k french.

IIRC the rule is 10x the number of the troops to stackwipe enemy instantly but if you're really building several million men armies to exploit that, you've got bigger problems than an edge case game mechanic.
 
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Can you change the name of "janissary infantry" in Anatolian group as well. Since there are actually janissary units now the name makes little sense and it barely made any sense to begin with as a unit type description since janissaries went until after game's end date.

Unit pip balance is very welcome, it has been quite outdated as a system in general, I also have a feeling that non-Western units might get nerfed too much in early to mid game for no reason. Unit pipe balance for Anatolian/Muslim/Indian units was already questionable with how weak they got relative to Western units how early (Western military advantage becomes definitive in 18th century, not earlier) and now they are all tuned down further?

I would also welcome a rebalance of cavalry units. In all honesty Anatolian infantry should not be stronger than European ones in early portions of the game but Anatolian cavalry should be stronger by having earlier fire pips to represent mounted archery which should converge with European pips by 1600.
 
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Given that you are mostly considered a noob until 1444 hours - that means you've added at most 3 more QA testers or they are all noobs.
third possibility: they each, individually, have over 5000 hours.
 
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the Ottos worthwhile to play.
I legitimately find the Ottomans more fun than most of Europe.

Mostly because as the Ottomans, I can largely ignore both German Rome's nonsense, and colonization.
 
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I legitimately find the Ottomans more fun than most of Europe.

Mostly because as the Ottomans, I can largely ignore both German Rome's nonsense, and colonization.
I somewhat agree for the reasons you listed, but the archaic unique mechanics (pashas, events, missions, and sunni as a whole) leave much to be desired and a ton of points for improvment. Scandinavia went from being a low dev swamp with a couple so-so nations to a group of potential powerhouses with an even better formable. Seeing an actual rise to prominence from a less hegemonic position would make it a lot more enjoyable.
 
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