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Stellaris Dev Diary #215 - Gameplay themes & Balancing considerations

Hello everyone!

First I want to thank you for the overwhelming support that you’ve shown us with announcing the Custodians initiative. It’s been really fun and motivating to see so many positive responses, and for that we’re truly thankful. At the same time, I must admit that it is also a bit scary in the sense that we shouldn’t have the expectation that this will suddenly resolve any issues you might have with the game, or that we’ll be able to deliver large amounts of significant changes with every update. Let’s appreciate this opportunity and make the best of it :)

Species Pack Gameplay Themes
Last week we already talked about what the Lem Update (honoring the author Stanislaw Lem) would focus on, but I’d also like to go into more detail regarding some things.

We mentioned that we would be adding gameplay to the Humanoids Species Pack and the Plantoids Species Pack, and although I won’t talk about the exact details yet, I do want to talk a little about how we approached it, and the themes we chose.

Plantoids was a bit easier, because there are some obvious fantasies. Going around the themes of growth and plants we’re adding some new traits, civics and origin. We felt like it made sense to open up these gameplay additions to both Plantoid portraits as well as for Fungoids.

Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.

Let us know about any ideas or thoughts you have regarding those :)

We will be talking more about these in much greater detail later, but that may possibly be in August.

Game Balance
We’re going to take a look at reworking some of the major outstanding balance issues that we’re having.

One example that I want to talk about is the issue with Research Booming, where power players can essentially outpace other empires due to focusing a lot on research. What enables this is usually Districts that provide Researcher Jobs, which is relatively easy to gain access to early on through Origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers (the latter not being nearly as strong).

For Shattered Ring we are looking into changing the start from a pure “end-game” Ring World, to be more of an actual “Shattered Ring” that you need to repair before you gain access to the powerful Districts of the Ring World. Putting additional emphasis on the fantasy of restoring this ancient megastructure to its former glory can be a fun addition to the Origin itself. Although we haven’t decided exactly what we’re doing, changing the start to be a Shattered Ring that you can restore with the Mega-Engineering technology is a likely route.

Unity & Empire Sprawl
Beyond Lem, we are also going to take a look at Empire Sprawl and Unity. The design for Admin Capacity was never really something that I felt worked out, and we never finished the design that was intended for it. Continuing to use Admin Cap as a mechanic also feels a bit like a dead end due to multiple reasons (ranging from design to technical), so we’re instead going to look into another solution.

I have a design for doubling down on using Unity as the resource for internal management, removing Admin Cap entirely, and to make Empire Sprawl something that you can never mitigate anymore. More sprawling empires will always suffer harsher penalties from Empire Sprawl, and we’ll instead focus on how Unity can be used internally to mitigate some of those penalties. Examples could be Edicts that have a Unity Upkeep Cost, and perhaps reduce the Research Cost Penalty induced by Empire Sprawl. Angry Pops could potentially also have a Unity Upkeep Cost, to represent the drain on your society.

Note that these ideas are very much in their infancy and very prone to change. We will probably start talking a bit more about that once Lem has been released, but I wanted to share some thoughts with you so that we could gather some initial feedback.

------

That’s all for this week folks! We’re in the middle of reviewing our dev diary schedule, so we’re hoping to be back with 2 more dev diaries before we take a summer break. We’ll keep you in the loop as we go.
 
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Hello everyone!

First I want to thank you for the overwhelming support that you’ve shown us with announcing the Custodians initiative. It’s been really fun and motivating to see so many positive responses, and for that we’re truly thankful. At the same time, I must admit that it is also a bit scary in the sense that we shouldn’t have the expectation that this will suddenly resolve any issues you might have with the game, or that we’ll be able to deliver large amounts of significant changes with every update. Let’s appreciate this opportunity and make the best of it :)

Species Pack Gameplay Themes
Last week we already talked about what the Lem Update (honoring the author Stanislaw Lem) would focus on, but I’d also like to go into more detail regarding some things.

We mentioned that we would be adding gameplay to the Humanoids Species Pack and the Plantoids Species Pack, and although I won’t talk about the exact details yet, I do want to talk a little about how we approached it, and the themes we chose.

Plantoids was a bit easier, because there are some obvious fantasies. Going around the themes of growth and plants we’re adding some new traits, civics and origin. We felt like it made sense to open up these gameplay additions to both Plantoid portraits as well as for Fungoids.

Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.

Let us know about any ideas or thoughts you have regarding those :)

We will be talking more about these in much greater detail later, but that may possibly be in August.

Game Balance
We’re going to take a look at reworking some of the major outstanding balance issues that we’re having.

One example that I want to talk about is the issue with Research Booming, where power players can essentially outpace other empires due to focusing a lot on research. What enables this is usually Districts that provide Researcher Jobs, which is relatively easy to gain access to early on through Origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers (the latter not being nearly as strong).

For Shattered Ring we are looking into changing the start from a pure “end-game” Ring World, to be more of an actual “Shattered Ring” that you need to repair before you gain access to the powerful Districts of the Ring World. Putting additional emphasis on the fantasy of restoring this ancient megastructure to its former glory can be a fun addition to the Origin itself. Although we haven’t decided exactly what we’re doing, changing the start to be a Shattered Ring that you can restore with the Mega-Engineering technology is a likely route.

Unity & Empire Sprawl
Beyond Lem, we are also going to take a look at Empire Sprawl and Unity. The design for Admin Capacity was never really something that I felt worked out, and we never finished the design that was intended for it. Continuing to use Admin Cap as a mechanic also feels a bit like a dead end due to multiple reasons (ranging from design to technical), so we’re instead going to look into another solution.

I have a design for doubling down on using Unity as the resource for internal management, removing Admin Cap entirely, and to make Empire Sprawl something that you can never mitigate anymore. More sprawling empires will always suffer harsher penalties from Empire Sprawl, and we’ll instead focus on how Unity can be used internally to mitigate some of those penalties. Examples could be Edicts that have a Unity Upkeep Cost, and perhaps reduce the Research Cost Penalty induced by Empire Sprawl. Angry Pops could potentially also have a Unity Upkeep Cost, to represent the drain on your society.

Note that these ideas are very much in their infancy and very prone to change. We will probably start talking a bit more about that once Lem has been released, but I wanted to share some thoughts with you so that we could gather some initial feedback.

------

That’s all for this week folks! We’re in the middle of reviewing our dev diary schedule, so we’re hoping to be back with 2 more dev diaries before we take a summer break. We’ll keep you in the loop as we go.

Another overall thought:

It would be nice if a player's uninhabited systems had more life and strategic consequence. Right now, you claim dozens of star systems (more as the game goes on), but only ever pay attention to the handful with inhabited planets and starbases. Most of the time I find this leaves me with huge sections of my empire that might as well not be there. It's just kind of dead space, and it accounts for most of your map.

Personally, I would think of this from three perspectives:

  • Aesthetic - It would be fun to just have sprites and animation that made your empire feel alive and more lived-in, both within the system and the galaxy view.
  • Strategic - Uninhabited systems could have more purpose to them, or at least more interaction. I'm not sure exactly what that would be, but something to make it feel like these are inhabited sections of my empire that require active governance. One idea, for example, is to require that stations collect and transmit system resources the same way they do trade, so that even your most backwater systems need an active network of starbases, trade routes and pirates.
  • Starbases - While a little bit off topic, it might help if starbases felt more like active communities. At least in my imagination, I would like them to be like DS9, a frontier outpost with its own activity and stories. Right now they're pretty much set-it and forget-it. Most modules and buildings on a starbase are military, or niche/specialty, so personally I tend to build my anchorage/shipyard/trade/defense template and move on.

Just one more idea on the pile!
 
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Not too hyped about dwarves and elves in a sci-fi game, but the rest of the changes sound good.
 
Hello everyone!

First I want to thank you for the overwhelming support that you’ve shown us with announcing the Custodians initiative. It’s been really fun and motivating to see so many positive responses, and for that we’re truly thankful. At the same time, I must admit that it is also a bit scary in the sense that we shouldn’t have the expectation that this will suddenly resolve any issues you might have with the game, or that we’ll be able to deliver large amounts of significant changes with every update. Let’s appreciate this opportunity and make the best of it :)

Species Pack Gameplay Themes
Last week we already talked about what the Lem Update (honoring the author Stanislaw Lem) would focus on, but I’d also like to go into more detail regarding some things.

We mentioned that we would be adding gameplay to the Humanoids Species Pack and the Plantoids Species Pack, and although I won’t talk about the exact details yet, I do want to talk a little about how we approached it, and the themes we chose.

Plantoids was a bit easier, because there are some obvious fantasies. Going around the themes of growth and plants we’re adding some new traits, civics and origin. We felt like it made sense to open up these gameplay additions to both Plantoid portraits as well as for Fungoids.

Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.

Let us know about any ideas or thoughts you have regarding those :)

We will be talking more about these in much greater detail later, but that may possibly be in August.

Game Balance
We’re going to take a look at reworking some of the major outstanding balance issues that we’re having.

One example that I want to talk about is the issue with Research Booming, where power players can essentially outpace other empires due to focusing a lot on research. What enables this is usually Districts that provide Researcher Jobs, which is relatively easy to gain access to early on through Origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers (the latter not being nearly as strong).

For Shattered Ring we are looking into changing the start from a pure “end-game” Ring World, to be more of an actual “Shattered Ring” that you need to repair before you gain access to the powerful Districts of the Ring World. Putting additional emphasis on the fantasy of restoring this ancient megastructure to its former glory can be a fun addition to the Origin itself. Although we haven’t decided exactly what we’re doing, changing the start to be a Shattered Ring that you can restore with the Mega-Engineering technology is a likely route.

Unity & Empire Sprawl
Beyond Lem, we are also going to take a look at Empire Sprawl and Unity. The design for Admin Capacity was never really something that I felt worked out, and we never finished the design that was intended for it. Continuing to use Admin Cap as a mechanic also feels a bit like a dead end due to multiple reasons (ranging from design to technical), so we’re instead going to look into another solution.

I have a design for doubling down on using Unity as the resource for internal management, removing Admin Cap entirely, and to make Empire Sprawl something that you can never mitigate anymore. More sprawling empires will always suffer harsher penalties from Empire Sprawl, and we’ll instead focus on how Unity can be used internally to mitigate some of those penalties. Examples could be Edicts that have a Unity Upkeep Cost, and perhaps reduce the Research Cost Penalty induced by Empire Sprawl. Angry Pops could potentially also have a Unity Upkeep Cost, to represent the drain on your society.

Note that these ideas are very much in their infancy and very prone to change. We will probably start talking a bit more about that once Lem has been released, but I wanted to share some thoughts with you so that we could gather some initial feedback.

------

That’s all for this week folks! We’re in the middle of reviewing our dev diary schedule, so we’re hoping to be back with 2 more dev diaries before we take a summer break. We’ll keep you in the loop as we go.
STELLARIS CHADS KEEP WINNING. On a more serious note, would it be possible to have a mid to late game tech that consolidates resource gathering for strategic resources. Balance wise, it is understandable to have these take up building spaces early on, but it becomes a serious liability for tall empires who cannot afford to lose building slots later in the game lest they start having serious struggles .s
 
Bold news Grekulf.

Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with EU4. I've been trying to get this going for a good while.

This is the truest statement and offers a lot of insight. I truly do believe you care and put your heart into Stellaris. I respect your resolve.

I must admit that it is also a bit scary in the sense that we shouldn’t have the expectation that this will suddenly resolve any issues you might have with the game, or that we’ll be able to deliver large amounts of significant changes with every update.

Given the past record I have lowered expectations. I cautiously hope to be pleasantly surprised. Designating them 'custodians' will cause confusion between posts about Galactic Community and People Who Will Make Stellaris Quality, especially when using the forum search function. It will be more practical to have a name not tied to something already used in Stellaris.

As we learn more about these very important people clearer expectations can be set. For instance, if they're 1/4 the size of the content team then it would make sense updates wouldn't be significant, but gradual. Probably a bandage to rip off sooner than later.

I'll expand on this elsewhere, but regarding research boom. Players get access to more events/anomalies/precursor than AI, giving them an unfair advantage to AI empires in research when the aforementioned offers technology or research points. View StarNet AI's files for inspiration in making AI Empires matter.
 
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One example that I want to talk about is the issue with Research Booming, where power players can essentially outpace other empires due to focusing a lot on research. What enables this is usually Districts that provide Researcher Jobs, which is relatively easy to gain access to early on through Origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers (the latter not being nearly as strong).
I don't feel that this is really an issue limited to Ring Worlds and Habitats. As just about *any* empire, I'll spend my first several building slots on nothing but research labs. By 2250 on Grand Admiral, almost every AI has pathetic tech compared to me, even the ones with advanced starts.

It seems to me that, when it comes to filling building slots, "build a research lab" is almost always the optimal choice. Sure, I'll spend some building slots on mining strategic resources, increasing the output of basic resources, increasing admin cap, or making planet-unique buildings. But other than that, it's nothing but labs.

Maybe labs should be moved to districts to create more tension (research vs resources), or maybe there should be some form of diminishing returns on research. (The "ahead of time" mechanic from other PDX games, or maybe researchers only contribute half as much when you have over 2k research, for instance.)

Or maybe this tension will be resolved with a rework of unity: If I have to decide between "should I use this building slot to increase research or to increase unity," that's strategic tension. This could also be cool thematically if it could somehow mirror the materialism vs spiritualism ethics axis.
 
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Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.
How are these civics going to work? If you pick the Dwarf portrait you're stuck with the Dwarf civic? Or is the civic an option if you pick any humanoid portrait so long as you have the humanoids pack?

Hopefully you're not locking specific portraits into specific civics, as the main benefit of the portrait system is you can customize your species to look [relatively] the way you want. It'd be disappointing to find out some portraits are locked into a tired cliché because you happened to want pointy ears on your ruler.

Also, as a wishlist item, it'd be nice if there were a few additional name lists to pick from where feasible. Four per type seemed like a lot at first, but given the number of empires in a galaxy, you'll have seen most of them after playing just a few games.
 
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You will understand if you play some multiplayer. Difficulty sliders are for adjusting the difficulty of AI empires and AI crisis, while origins and civics change your power relative to other players. Playing against 10x crisis strength and playing with some player who set themself to 10x...

Yes the host can have rules against it, but it's not fun to spend as much time writing, discussing, informing about and enforcing rules as you spend actually playing the game. And you won't know that some guy ignored/forgot the rule until you're already well into game and decrypted him.
HoI4's response to "people write 20 page rulebooks before they do multiplayer" was to add game rules to enforce the common rules. "You can't pick origin X when making your empire" could be a legit multiplayer-only toggle.
 
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How are these civics going to work? If you pick the Dwarf portrait you're stuck with the Dwarf civic? Or is the civic an option if you pick any humanoid portrait so long as you have the humanoids pack?

Hopefully you're not locking specific portraits into specific civics, as the main benefit of the portrait system is you can customize your species to look [relatively] the way you want. It'd be disappointing to find out some portraits are locked into a tired cliché because you happened to want pointy ears on your ruler.

Also, as a wishlist item, it'd be nice if there were a few additional name lists to pick from where feasible. Four per type seemed like a lot at first, but given the number of empires in a galaxy, you'll have seen most of them after playing just a few games.
I'd assume they're like the Necroid civics. Anyone can use Death Cults and Reanimated Armies, not juat Necroid portraits. So you could hypothetically make arthropoid Masterful Crafters alongside Space Dwarf crafters.
 
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For tech booming could you introduce a mechanic like EU4's tech tree where you get bonuses and penalties to researching techs when you are ahead or behind schedule? That way you can be super cutting edge tech-wise, but it gets more expensive the farther out you are. Similarly the reverse could help be a catch-up mechanic?

If you didn't want to tie it to an overall year-specific "era" concept you could make it based on how many other species know a given tech. First one to research costs more, but once half the galaxy knows it, the cost goes way down.

Another slightly tangential mechanic could be giving science ships something to do later in the game and have them be able to observe other empires to gain research kind of like how you research debris but without warfare?
 
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Empire sprawl being not possible to be fully compensated seems very good, one more incentive to play tall or at least in a different way.

As far as Research Booming is concerned, to me the problem with research is not that it is easy to get but that it is hard to spiphon off other empires and there is no distinction between discovering and implementing some technologies (boom, you researched anti-gravity engineering, now all your city districts are suddenly better, free of charge, no need to spend any actual resource on improving those districts). As far as not being able to siphon off technologies, look at the situation on Earth currently. Research is publicly published, patents are public, very often inventions can simply be transported between borders no major restrictions imposed. Military technologies are different of course. It seems to me that the cost of developing a non-millitary technology that an empire you have open borders/trade agreement/is a part of galactic union/migration pact/part of federation should be drastically reduced. I'm talking up to 80% cost reduction or even more. This could introduce an interesting dynamic where heavily investing into research is less necessary (though still beneficial) and make enigmatic engineering a very useful ascension perk if it reduces or removes the ability to siphon technologies off you easily.

The current ways of siphoning technologies are not sufficient, research agreement is merely +25% and if one is technologically superior, they can just decline or break it, espionage is too weak and should be necessary just for military technology and debris is also too weak, at least if you have prerequisite technologies. In real world civilian technology transfer is a normal thing. I know the game doesn't mean to represent reality but it's just not satisfying that you have to reasearch everything, while some of your researchers could just go into a neighbouring empire and look at stuff.
 
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Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.

I really would love to see some Warhammer 40k inspired Civics and Origins for Humans.
 
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I love it! I always felt like unity was a huge waste of potential, as well as how empire sprawl just didn't really work as is. Removing empire sprawl or better, having unity have more to do with empire sprawl seems like a great way to turn 2 problems into a single, somewhat more manageable one.

As far as suggestions go, I feel like unity should be directly tied to pops. So an empire with 10 times as many pops should have 10 times as many unity costs, including traditions and edicts. The idea being that unity is about the hearts and minds of the people, so it should be directly dependent to the sheer number of pops. 1 pop worth of administrators, artists, etc. will have a massive power to change a society of 50 pops, but should, rightfully, be almost nothing in a society of 1000. It feels interesting to max out tradition trees and ascension perks by 2200 in heavily unity oriented empires (tall ones would have an easier time spamming unity) or to have like at best half of them by 2300 in the event of neglecting unity production (like many players do since administrators do produce enough unity for the current version).

No idea how you guys will handle empire sprawl but I feel like regardless of what is done about it, even tall empires should still have a reason to get unity specific jobs instead of neglecting them entirely. And wide empires should require absurd amounts of unity producing jobs to match tall empires before even taking empire sprawl penalties into account. Large empires change slowly, large empires that neglect art hardly change at all, small empires change fast, small empires that neglect art change slowly still. Additionally, maybe all traditions should cost the same, with unity costs only increasing based on population. There's potential for cheese but it's better than making it so large empires have more unity while small empires have less! Proportional unity plus some sort of forced overextension penalty (mitigated or not) would be balanced enough I believe.
 
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I don't understand this

I don't understand the issue of "Research Booming." I would expect that an empire that spends more resources towards tech and focuses on it should outpace one that does not. Why is that a problem? Or are you referring to an exploit that provides benefits beyond that of just merely making it a focus for your empire?

I understand the game by design props up weak empires and gives them protections (e.g. war goals to limit the scope of conquest) to make them harder to eliminate, thus giving them a chance to recover. This prolongs the game artificially for a more "epic" experience. Is instead the intention to do this with technology so that no empire can ever really be so technologically inferior that they cannot catch up?
You put down some reasearch labs and boom, you are winning. The different tiers have small differences, thats why during the mid game, reasearches can go as fast as some months while doing the easier researches at the begining meant years.
A HoI 4 like reasearch couldbe,where if you are ahead of time you get some slowdown, and if you are behind, you get some extra speed like in a research agreement, that its always good to have high tech, but not this op. And this wouldnt be op at all but admin cap change just ruined it, you could have 5 planet dedicated to reasearch even in a 200 star 0.25 hab game and be king
 
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HoI4's response to "people write 20 page rulebooks before they do multiplayer" was to add game rules to enforce the common rules. "You can't pick origin X when making your empire" could be a legit multiplayer-only toggle.
Hoi4 still has 20 page rulesets even after paradox added options for custom game rules.
 
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In principle you could say that "food" resources for Plantoids is organic matter which plants do need for growth. Soil is very different from regolith, after all.
Herbivores and carnivores can have food shipped in from another world but it feels like plants should be more dependent on fertile soil on the planet they live on to expand and thrive.

Perhaps there could be a plantoid housing district that can be built in place of an agriculture district (dunno if the engine even allows that?) that gives bonuses to plantoid pops instead of food output, so they compete with regular pops for agricultural output in a different way and prefer different planets to regular pops - after all, lots of agricultural potential sounds like a good planet for plantoids?
 
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