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Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

Hello!

This week we’re going to look at some more changes we're planning, as well as a review of how some of the experiments mentioned in the last few dev diaries have evolved.

Thank you for the massive amount of feedback in those threads.

Reduction in Pops

Due to the effects on performance and a desire to reduce the micromanagement burden in the mid to late game, some of the things we’ve been deeply looking into are different ways of dramatically reducing the number of pops in the galaxy.

These experiments have generally revolved around modifying the growth (or assembly required) for pops as an empire’s population grows, with some variants trying a logistic pop growth (where growth follows an S-shaped curve as planets develop, based on a carrying capacity of a planet). These experiments have reduced the end date pop count to somewhere around one half of the old numbers with the expected performance improvements.

Organic pops will follow a curve where they begin at standard population growth, increase growth as the approach a midpoint between population and the planetary carrying capacity, then slow down to zero as they reach the top of the curve. Pop Assembly, on the other hand, is generally slow but consistent. The biggest change is that producing a new pop no longer costs a static amount of pop growth - it increases as the empire population does.

A significant reduction in pops has a cascade of major implications for the overall economy, production, and other gameplay effects. As such, these also require a pass on buildings, technologies, and even seemingly minor ripple effects like what the value should be for the trade value generated by pops.

There will be a lot of patch notes.

Most buildings have been standardized to now give 2 jobs per tier rather than the old 2/5/8 progression.

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Just one example of many.

We’ve also changed a few buildings to have new or additional features, such as the Spawning Pool and Clone Vats, which have had their Pop Growth modifiers replaced with the new Organic Pop Assembly. This fills the same slot on the planet as Robotic Pop Assembly, so generally you’ll want to pick one or the other. (Clone Vats also picked up a food upkeep cost to represent simple materials to break down.)

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Pops is Soylent Green!

A few other jobs got minor perks added to them, like the Medical Workers from Gene Clinics making it a little easier to live on less hospitable worlds.

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Doesn't normally produce exotic gas, this one happens to be a lithoid.

And a few new techs have been added to help compensate for lost productivity. One tech line increases both the job production of a planet as well as job upkeep - those fewer pops are still capable of producing the work of more on a developed planet.

Ring Worlds

As part of the balance pass, Ring Worlds have been bumped up to 10 segments from 5, and the jobs per segment have been adjusted.

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The Shattered Ring origin now possesses a warning that it may be a Challenging Origin for Lithoids due to a scarcity of minerals, and now also applies the Ring World Habitability Preference to your pops. We’re considering adding a similar warning for Hives selecting the origin, since the habitability preference change puts a serious crimp in their expansion.

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Put a ring on it?

Their starting blockers have also been adjusted to give a more balanced spread of jobs.

Ecumenopoleis

Like the Ring Worlds, these start with all building slots open. As mentioned before, you can now use the Arcology Project decision on a planet that has a mix of City and Industrial Districts.

Note: Empire has all technologies but no traditions active.
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The ecumenopolis has a unique distinction of being able to have both the Factory and Foundry building lines on the same planet.

Habitats

The changes to Habitat modules are much smaller in scope, but here’s the list of their districts.

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Void Dwellers have gotten a bit of attention as well with some tradition swaps for those that had minimal or no beneficial effects for them.

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Replacing Public Works Division:
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And for Void Dwellers with the Adaptability tree:
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Interstellar Franchising and Imperious Architecture now also function for Habitats.

Updates to Dev Diary 190

Some of these updates may not be new to people following the forum threads, but it's easy to miss things so I figured we should go over them.

Many people requested the ability to fully specialize their foundry and factory worlds. We've modified the Forge and Industrial World planet designations to shift one pop on each Industrial District to the appropriate job if possible.

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We've also upgraded the Food Processing Center, Mineral Purification Hub, and Energy Nexus to provide an extra job to each of their associated resource production districts. (The Food Processing Center will also improve Hydroponics Farms.)

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One of the suggestions made in the thread was to add a civic that increases unlocked Building Slots. Sounded like a great addition to Functional Architecture.

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Functionality increased!

Updates to Dev Diary 191

We’ve explored some additional options regarding the resettlement system we outlined in Dev Diary 191, and after trying a few things, and have settled on some extensive modifications to the system.

All planets with free sapient unemployed pops that are not locked down by migration controls will have a small chance every month of moving one to another planet within their empire that has jobs that they are willing and able to work, housing, and habitability of 40% or higher. This chance is increased if there are multiple unemployed pops that meet the criteria.

The system now prefers to move higher strata pops first, so rulers and specialists will move before workers, and this system also functions for gestalt empires. It will not relocate non-sapient robots or slaves. It will generally prefer to move pops to the planets with the most free jobs.

After some experimentation we’ve chosen to keep the Transit Hubs as Starbase Buildings that provide a system wide buff to the chance of auto-resettlement occurring. (Rather than being essential to have it occur in the first place.)

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Doubles the chance the pops choose to resettle themselves.

Greater Than Ourselves has been rewritten to also massively increase this chance when the edict is active, with a +200% bonus.

We initially had these pops considering destinations available through Migration Pacts as well, but decided against keeping that since it introduced a new Migration Controls micromanagement element that we didn’t find desirable.

We’ve also done a minor update to the Authority bonuses that seemed a little bit weak.

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Democracies now have a bonus encouraging their pops to seek their dreams, and Dictatorships have a bit of an easier time holding things together when they’re a bit overstretched.

Closing Thoughts

One other little quality of life improvement that was just added is this filter on the colonization interface.

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That’s probably long enough for today. We’re looking forward to your feedback on these as well.

Next week w̷e̵'̸l̸l̴ ̴b̸e̴t̵̮̄ǎ̸͈l̷̠̈k̴͔͂i̴̞͒n̷̪͊g̸̳͗ ̸͚̎a̵͉̐b̵̤̿ȯ̴̲ṵ̵̀t̸͇͂ ҈҂▒©╛⅜

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Since "w̷e̵'̸l̸l̴ ̴b̸e̴t̵̮̄ǎ̸͈l̷̠̈k̴͔͂i̴̞͒n̷̪͊g̸̳͗ ̸͚̎a̵͉̐b̵̤̿ȯ̴̲ṵ̵̀t̸͇͂ ҈҂▒©╛⅜" are at least 3 bytes utf8 encoded chars, I thought this could be a code.... But no luck so far. :p
 
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"The biggest change is that producing a new pop no longer costs a static amount of pop growth - it increases as the empire population does."

I think this is gonna make keeping some low pop vassals/ despoiler prey around somewhat worthwhile.

Also can you please make it so that Agrarian Idyll can repair relics worlds in ecumenopolis, without having to shuffle civics?
 
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Since "w̷e̵'̸l̸l̴ ̴b̸e̴t̵̮̄ǎ̸͈l̷̠̈k̴͔͂i̴̞͒n̷̪͊g̸̳͗ ̸͚̎a̵͉̐b̵̤̿ȯ̴̲ṵ̵̀t̸͇͂ ҈҂▒©╛⅜" are at least 3 bytes utf8 encoded chars, I thought this could be a code.... But no luck so far. :p
we'll be talking about҈ ҂▒©╛⅜

҈҂▒©╛⅜

5 characters.
What word has 5 characters and goes well with espionage?

Intel. My bet is "we'll be talking about intel"
 
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Pop growth currently happens in 3 "slots" per planet. An organic pop can grow, a mechanical pop can be built, and a pop can die off. I infer from what has been given that the new way is: an organic pop can grow, a pop can be assembled (organic or mech), and a pop can die off. So pure organic empires (including hive minds and spiritualists) can now use 2 slots for growth and the synth ascended are no longer so singularly OP in pop growth. I am concerned about the purely mechanical empires such as determined exterminators, as they get only one slot to assemble new bots.
 
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We’ve also changed a few buildings to have new or additional features, such as the Spawning Pool and Clone Vats, which have had their Pop Growth modifiers replaced with the new Organic Pop Assembly. This fills the same slot on the planet as Robotic Pop Assembly, so generally you’ll want to pick one or the other. (Clone Vats also picked up a food upkeep cost to represent simple materials to break down.)

View attachment 653806View attachment 653808
Pops is Soylent Green!

A few other jobs got minor perks added to them, like the Medical Workers from Gene Clinics making it a little easier to live on less hospitable worlds.

View attachment 653809
Doesn't normally produce exotic gas, this one happens to be a lithoid.

I love seeing things I've been backing for a while get added to the game. I know I'm not the only one that suggested that Clone Vats/etc use the Robot slot for an extra pop, it's just nice to see our faction win!
 
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Four more comments, on top of previous concerns about carrying capacity leading to a bizarre meta of half-full planets:
1. The dictatorship boost is incredibly weak; you're only over your admin cap in the early game, when research/unity is so low it doesn't matter.
2. The new pop resettlement system seems way too complex without actual depth; you could achieve the exact same effect (but much more easily and simply) by just making GTOS universal. If performance is a concern, just have GTOS check once a month instead of every day as it does currently.
3. There really needs to be some kind of immigration system for assembly. It can be linked to the current system or changed to something like "exported capacity," but this change would be really helpful for machines/synths/and now bio-slavers.
4. If you want planet populations to level off over time, how about have this work via the immigration system rather than via pop growth itself: planets low on the curve (way below carrying capacity) have high immigration pull, planets half way through have no additional pull or push, and planets at or near capacity have very high push. This has the benefits of a carrying capacity system without creating a weird incentive to make all planets half-full. If you want to reduce total pop count on top of this, just reduce base growth and assembly speed and/or add a scaling negative modifier to growth/assembly as the game goes on.
 
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As for flesh assembly: or it just being added to pop growth slot as a constant modifier, which not taking any sub-modifers from global reduction, habitability, devastation, etc.
 
Which is the point. This was a feature to help with micro-management and how time-consuming it was. It's a GAMEPLAY feature. Not an RP one. And even from an RP perspective, it makes no sense. An Empire that has indentured assets/slaves would not let them sit around without doing anything. They would be shipped around without their say-so to wherever they're needed.

There's no logical reason whatsoever to restrict Authoritarians from benefitting from a gameplay feature meant to reduce micro-management. Which has been plaguing the game to an extreme extent in its last few iterations.

Further you guys keep ignoring that the GOES OUT OF IT'S WAY TO ENSLAVE UNEMPLOYED POPS FOR NO GOOD REASON! It will literally free slaves so it can enslave unemployed pops. Thus further preventing them from moving somewhere else.
Well I think that it will be possibile to add a similar feature, but for slavers, maybe a decision that instantly resettle all unemployed slaves, at a decent cost and it's called not migration but something like "slave shipping" or whatever, but with 100% of possibility, because not make sense to give the slaves the possibility to refuse to leave
 
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Except for slaves and robots, which is really gonna buff both slavery (arguably good) and robot assembly plants (already the single best building in the entire game).
Hey, to be fair. Cloning Vats will now also be pretty good. Honestly, an easy fix for slavery is to just frigging make slaves move too if free movement is enabled. Which makes sense when using slavery guilds/indentured assets and your base species is 40% enslaved. And then just slap the same influence cost onto it. Also lowering micro-management in the process.
 
10% reduction of sprawl penalty is still very weak compared to the extra edict dictatorial used to get. Especially considering that sprawl is one of the easiest things to manage, and even being over your sprawl often times has a negligible effect if you actually look at the numbers.
 
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Unsurprisingly, I am a big fan of carrying capacity being added. Looking forward to that system being official implemented, I always take my mods being made obsolete is a high compliment. As someone with some experience with making S-shaped population curves, I have a few thoughts:

1). Integrate migration (I always meant to but never really got it to work in a way I liked). As mentioned in the thread above, without it the meta becomes keep every planet as close to 50% capacity as possible to maximize growth, so constant manual resettlement is what you want to do if you are masochist who gets more enjoyment out of min maxing everything than playing the game. The fix is to convert some of the growth slowdown as you near full capacity into emigration push. There should be some inefficiency here, because moving to Alpha Centauri is a bit more of a challenge than moving to Detroit, so you shouldn't get 100% of the growth you would have from a high population dispersed as migrants, but you should have some.

2). Have population booms and busts. (another, always wanted, never got around to actually adding in Carry Capacity) My thoughts on how: don't zero growth out entirely at carrying capacity, then planets never actually experience over population, which is a fun/thematic part of sci-fi. Also, real populations don't reach a perfectly balanced steady equilibrium, they tend to exceed it and then crash, then bounce back. This largely happens because there is some lag between population growth, and environmental pressure pushing population back. How do you do this in game? First, let the population exceed capacity naturally by making the point where growth falls to zero be above 100%, say its 125%. Then, you need something to slowly build up that causes population to crash and fall under capacity to correct the imbalance. I would use planet devastation, as it works thematically and already has the needed modifiers. If the population exceeds capacity, add very very slow ticking devastation to the planet to simulate over extending the capacity of the environment to support your pops. Devastation decreases capacity and pop growth further, so in short order you should have increasing negative population growth, making pops actually decline (also, higher emigration). Since you will still be over capacity when the planet reaches negative growth, devastation will keep ticking up until enough pops have declined/migrated that the planet is once again below 100% capacity, then devastation will slowly tick down once again raising the capacity and growth rate again until pops are no longer declining, but growing again, and you have a cycle of boom and bust populations, because you create a lag time between the growth of the population, and the effect on population growth of capacity.

3). Remove manual resettlement. Sadly, point 2) would probably re-introduce incentives for micro manual pop resettlement that I was trying to avoid in point 1). Alas. The added influence cost of resettlement may be enough to keep this from being too meta. But personally, I am a fan of removing manual resettlement from the game entirely, and instead using planetary decisions that boost/decrease emigration push/immigration pull instead. Less direct control of individual pops in favor of bigger, but more powerful levers the player can push at the planet level is ideal for me. But I know there are plenty who like manual resettlement. But if there was ever a time to cut it entirely- it seems a pop growth overall like this might be the opportunity. The min-maxers will complain but they also will have less micro pop management to do, so really, I think its doing them a favor even if they dont realize it :p
 
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These changes sound great on paper, though of course there may be possible exploits that need to be addressed.

I hope they also keep resource costs the same. The current state of the economy is constant runaway snowballing that requires changing game settings drastically to rein in. With fewer pops, especially in the late game, maybe we don't have to play on 5X crisis strength with 0.75x habitable planets and 2300 endgame start anymore.
 
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10% reduction of sprawl penalty is still very weak compared to the extra edict dictatorial used to get. Especially considering that sprawl is one of the easiest things to manage, and even being over your sprawl often times has a negligible effect if you actually look at the numbers.
Yeah, it's more a nerf than anything.


Well I think that it will be possibile to add a similar feature, but for slavers, maybe a decision that instantly resettle all unemployed slaves, at a decent cost and it's called not migration but something like "slave shipping" or whatever, but with 100% of possibility, because not make sense to give the slaves the possibility to refuse to leave
1. Why a "similar" feature. You can use the very same one. There's no reason why slaves shouldn't get shipped around. Which wouldn't be necessary if the algorithm that decides who gets enslaved wasn't borked and insisted upon enslaving unemployed pops for no good reason and above everyone else. You guys are needlessly complicating something and I have yet to hear a reason as to why.
2. A decision to instantly resettle all unemployed pops. So basically a planetary decision, that resettles them at random? At which point, why bother and not just resettle them manually. It's pretty much the same amount of micro.
3. Also why "decent cost"? You guys are trying to slap punishments, restrictions, and other things onto something that is a QoL change. Micro-management the way we currently have it is unenjoyable busy work that detracts from the actual game. This is the equivalent of handing one player a broken mouse and telling them to deal with it. And then going "okay, maybe you can use the unbroken controller every hour for five minutes, but I get to slap you each time you do so and you have to quickly switch it in and out for the broken one again".

This is not an RP thing, this is not a balancing concern. This is a QoL feature.
 
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While you’re revisiting pop growth and such, is it possible to rework Synthetic Evolution to allow robot pop conversions again? I remember many versions ago where when you finished the special project all robots got converted into primary species too. It’s quite a hassle to deal with tons of robot subspecies whenever you conquer a new planet, too. Conquer a world with a single default robot pop and suddenly it’s being assembled on every world in the galaxy you control. It’s be nice if you could just absorb them into your primary species again.
 
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I agree that slaves should be able to Auto move if they've a species right allowing it.
Because it's annoying from a gameplay perspective to have some of your pops stuck, so you still have to resettle manually, and thus micromanage
 
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People talking about gaming the system by moving pops to keep planets at the ideal pop-growth point seem to be forgetting that moving a pop manually will now cost influence.
1. Not for slaves, robots, or corvee systems.
2. Since auto-pop migration is being added, you just don't build more jobs; new pops that grow are unemployed and therefore automatically resettle to other planets.
 
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