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EU4 - Development Diary - 18th of August 2020

Good morning! As promised, the focus of today’s dev diary is Vietnam.

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In 1444 Dai Viet is a newly independent nation, having won its sovereignty in a bloody war against the occupying Ming Chinese forces through the efforts of Vietnamese national hero Lê Loi. Early campaigns against Champa began a centuries-spanning process of Vietnamese expansion southwards. Dai Viet is now ruled by Lê Loi’s infant grandson Bang Co, though true power resides with Queen Regent Nguyen Thi Anh and Trinh Kha (a 2/3/5/1 General). For all the promise of the early Lê dynasty, the seeds of its undoing were already present; the immense power that would be hoarded by the Nguyen, Trinh, and Mac families would divide the nation multiple times throughout our period.

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Shown above is the new Vietnamese mission tree available to Dai Viet, Annam, and Tonkin. Some highlights:

  • Like other nations in this update, Dai Viet receives many Subjugation CBs through its mission rewards. Dai Viet gets Subjugation CB’s on Lan Xang, Lan Na, Khmer, and Ayutthaya. They later get permanent claims on Burma.
  • The rightmost mission branch begins with the Rule Muang Phuan mission. Muang Phuan is a small semi-independent nation in the strange position of being guaranteed by both Lan Xang and Dai Viet, while also being a tributary of Ming. You can either try to diplomatically vassalize Muang Phuan or ignite the powder keg of war with Lan Xang by launching an invasion.
  • The Defy Ming mission can allow you to steal the Ming subject Yue during their Crisis Disaster, so it may be worthwhile to time completion opportunistically. The mission also reduces Ming’s Mandate by 20, so again it pays to be opportunistic and complete the mission when you’re ready to engage them on the battlefield.
  • Completing the Claim the Mandate mission fires an event that allows you to cosmetically change your nation’s name. You can choose between Viet Nam, Dai Nam, or stick with Dai Viet.
  • The Purchase Western Arms mission requires having strong relations with a European power present in the East Indies, and rewards a permanent -30% Artillery Cost and +10% Siege Ability.
  • The Faith and Learning mission requires constructing many Temples and achieving high religious unity. If you are playing a Confucian nation this rewards a large permanent bonus to your Harmonization Speed, else it permanently reduces your Idea Cost by 5%.
  • The State Education mission requires the construction of Universities, and adds Institution progress to your capital for each Institution that is active but not yet fully present in the capital.
  • The Imperial Citadel mission does something I can’t talk about yet, but also gives you the opportunity to move your capital to Hue, or else rename Dong Kinh to Hanoi.

I’ve excluded the four missions in the top left part of the mission tree because they deserve a bit more elaboration and they’re tied to some additional content for Dai Viet.

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These four missions are aimed at preventing exactly the scenario seen above. The player must consolidate the power of the state and curtail the power of the powerful noble families, or else they will eventually make a major power grab and divide the country in two. A new Disaster, called the Northern and Southern Dynasties, can fire after the Age of Discovery when Dai Viet has a particularly incompetent ruler. By following the mission tree this disaster is relatively easy to avoid, but if you do decide to play through it you can choose whether to side with the northern or southern faction. Historically this happened twice at different times during the period, but in EU4 it can only happen once, with slightly different effects depending on when it happens. The northern dynasty, represented by the Tonkin tag, is ruled by the Mac dynasty if the Disaster fires during the Age of Reformation and by the Nguyen dynasty in later Ages. The southern dynasty, represented by the Annam tag, is controlled by Lê loyalists in the Age of Reformation, and afterwards by the Trinh family (descendants of Trinh Kha). Land is divided between the north and south of the country, and even includes dividing subject nations between the two contenders for the throne - so if for example Dai Viet had vassalized Ming and Khmer, Ming would go to the northern dynasty while Khmer would go to the southern dynasty. Dai Viet is now reformable by both of these breakaway nations.

So, how do you avoid all this? The four missions required to do are as follows:
  • Dai Viet begins with a new generic Estate Privilege for the Nobility called Control of the Army. This privilege greatly increases Nobility influence, increases Leader Cost, adds additional Nobility influence whenever you recruit a leader, and adds a little monthly Army Tradition (it’s not all bad). The Control the Army mission requires you to revoke this privilege while building to 100% of your land force limit.
  • The Curtail the Nobility mission requires reducing the influence of the Nobility estate while holding at least 50% Crown Land.
  • The Restore Examinations mission refers to the Confucian examination system employed by China, Vietnam, and Korea throughout various points of their respective histories. State officials must complete a series of examinations that test their knowledge of Confucian literature and statecraft before they can assume office, a system that was at least theoretically meritocratic as the examinations were open to all. You must enact The Examination System government reform (shown below) while also employing any 3 advisors without running a deficit.
  • Prevent Division simply requires you to own Dai Viet’s core territories, have 2 stability, and for neither Tonkin nor Annam to exist. Completing this mission prevents the Northern and Southern Dynasties disaster from ever happening, and rewards -10% Stability Cost Modifier for the rest of the game.

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I mentioned The Examination System above, which is a new government reform that increases your Advisor Pool by 1 and reduces Nobility Influence by 10%. This reform is available to any nation that either has the Celestial Empire or Confucian Bureaucracy reform. Confucian Bureaucracy is yet another new government reform, initially granted to both Dai Viet and Korea in 1444. This reform reduces your Advisor Costs by 10% and is available to nations that have either Confucian religion or Vietnamese primary culture. Dai Viet's government had more in common with Chinese administrations than with the mandala-style governments of the rest of South-East Asia, while characterizing Korea's government as an "Autocracy" felt inadequate; the Confucian Bureaucracy reform kills two birds with one stone in this sense.


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On the topic of culture, I’ve altered the culture group setup in the region since I last talked about it. The Tai group contains countries that could sensibly form the nation of Siam, and since Siam is very much a focus for the update and an “historical winner” of the period it feels appropriate for them to have a strong culture group. Northern Thai is back but renamed to Khon Muang. Khmer is left on its own, again appropriate given that this period is very much a dark age for Khmer civilization. The Vietnamese culture, on the other hand, has been “buffed” by moving it into the Chinese group. This allows Dai Viet to hold the Mandate of Heaven without penalty and eases expansion into China on the way to achieving that goal. Miao is now in the Tibetan group, which was done less because it really fits into that group and more to move it out of the Chinese group. Cham has been returned to the Malay group, which gives it access to the Malay mission tree in addition to its own unique mission branches, which you can see below.

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Some highlights from the Cham mission tree:
  • The Reconquer Indrapura mission tasks you with reconquering the two provinces to your north. On completion both provinces become Cham culture, and Shunhua is renamed to Kandarapura.
  • Completing the Conquer Vietnam mission rewards -20% Culture Conversion Cost for the rest of the game.
  • Completing Subjugate the Highlands grants a Subjugation CB against the weakened Khmer Empire.
  • The Malay Connections mission requires that you have a moderately powerful Sunni ally in the Malaya region, such as Malacca. On completion you are offered an opportunity to convert to the Sunni faith.
  • The Expedition to Tondo mission requires conquering parts of Luzon and having a Colonist from any source. It grants +25% Colonial Range for the rest of the game, encouraging an early exploration of the Americas.

That’s all for this week! Since I’ve decided to take a short vacation this week, I may not be around to answer questions - or at least not as quickly. For the same reason next week’s dev diary may be a little shorter and focus on some of the minor nations we haven’t talked about yet like Lan Na and the Shan states.
 

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If Vietnamese culture can be a part of the Chinese culture group, what can't Zhuang also be a part of Chinese Culture Group? Historically Ming has taken over both Guangxi and Vietnam. It turned out that the rebellions in Vietnam are much more fierce than that of Guangxi (Zhuang) - which that's precise why Guangxi remained a part of the Chinese Empire, while Vietnam broke away.

In addition, if Vietnamese culture can become a part of Chinese culture, why can't this apply to the Koreans? A large chunk of Korea, too, has been under the control of China in the Han Dynasty, while the Korean culture is heavily influenced by the Chinese. It seems that Korea is a bit isolated in-game currently, so it might be a good idea to add it to the Chinese Culture group.

I have a rather bold suggestion: for whatever nation that has claimed the mandate, its national culture will be automatically added to the Chinese culture group, just like how the Manchurian culture work. In fact, Chinese lands have been conquered and inhabited by people of other nationalities (Xiongnu, Jie, Xianbei, Qiang, Di, Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols, ) multiple times in history. And for all of the cases, the conquerors abandoned their traditions and embraced the way of the Chinese. In the 1.31 patch, a large number of nations have the mission of conquering China and taking the Mandate. My suggestion fit nicely into the theme and will allow the holder of mandate to expand into China and rise to the Dragon throne without penalty.
Why not just make it so that under certain circumstances Vienam can switch to the Chinese culture group to get the empire over them? Manchu does something similar.
 
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The Defy Ming mission can allow you to steal the Ming subject Yue during their Crisis Disaster, so it may be worthwhile to time completion opportunistically. The mission also reduces Ming’s Mandate by 20, so again it pays to be opportunistic and complete the mission when you’re ready to engage them on the battlefield.

Missions which need me to wait before completing them if I want any actual benefit are my least favourite kind. Partly because of how nonsensically gamey it feels for cause and effect to be separated by decades for no reason, and partly because deliberately not completing a mission effectively disables the pop-up for completing other missions.

The Purchase Western Arms mission requires having strong relations with a European power present in the East Indies, and rewards a permanent -30% Artillery Cost and +10% Siege Ability.

This seems incredibly strong for a permanent modifier, especially considering that it seems relatively easy to achieve.
 
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In same logic, entire European cultures should share same culture group.
That guy is arguing against Vietnam being in the Chinese group by expanding the logic others he's arguing with are using for it to an absurd extent. That's not what he actually wants. It's a "by your logic" argument. IE: "they look the same are in the same 'cultural sphere' so there's no reason not to include all of them according to you guys"
 
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I feel like this culture discussion is going in circles. Hopefully EU5 will have a more dynamic system (and ideally will abandon culture groups as they are now).

As for the broader matter of Indochina, I've been wondering how is the development spread out in the area. Could we perhaps get a glimpse of the current development setup?
 
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It’s almost like a computer game is inadequately capable of reflecting real life historical circumstances with its countless subtleties and nuances… geesh guys, how upsetting..
 
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The Manchu weren't Chinese either, but they were moved to the Chinese culture group for game balance reasons. And besides, wasn't Vietnamese culture very heavily influenced by Chinese culture, to the point of being considered a part of the Chinese cultural sphere, even though linguistically they have nothing to do with China and were repeatedly able to assert their independence from China?
The problem is this was done to better facilitate the Manchu invasion of China. Following the invasion, we get a long period of Qing rule, and Manchuria remains within China today. I am not aware of any Manchurian nationalist sentiment after the Qing conquest.

Including the Vietnamese with the Chinese is very different. Unless I am mistaken, Vietnam was never annexed by China. And unlike with Manchuria, the Vietnamese never conquered China. The cultural change was done to facilitate Vietnamese conquests of China. Why? This never happened, and quite frankly was never likely to happen historically. I think it is entirely accurate to state that the Japanese, Tibetans, and Koreans have at least as much in common with the Chinese as the Vietnamese do. Which is to say, less than the English have in common with the Germans.
 
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I am not aware of any Manchurian nationalist sentiment after the Qing conquest.
The Manchu were assimilated.
Unless I am mistaken, Vietnam was never annexed but China.
You are very mistaken. Vietnam was ruled by China off and on for ~1000 years.

That said, yes. I'm kind of disappointed the go-to route for so many countries in Asia is just to become China, but I can't think of much else tbh.
 
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Cham was grouped with Vietnam in a previous dev diary.

Why don't they group Korean and Japanese in the Chinese group? Probably because their cultures are more distinct from Chinese culture.
Were they? Please do tell. What’s the basis for your claim here. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
 
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The Manchu were assimilated.

You are very mistaken. Vietnam was ruled by China off and on for ~1000 years.

That said, yes. I'm kind of disappointed the go-to route for so many countries in Asia is just to become China, but I can't think of much else tbh.
You’re talking about the various Han invasions. Han control was considerably shorter than 1000 years, and was always tenuous. Vietnam was never well enough integrated into China that I would call it “annexed.” More importantly though, the Chinese (again unless I am mistaken and if I am please cite a dynasty so I at least have some idea what you’re talking about) never ruled over Vietnam after the Han. The Han are so far before our game’s timeframe that by your logic all Romance cultures should be in the same group.
 
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You’re talking about the various Han invasions. Han control was considerably shorter than 1000 years, and was always tenuous. Vietnam was never well enough integrated into China that I would call it “annexed.” More importantly though, the Chinese (again unless I am mistaken and if I am please cite a dynasty so I at least have some idea what you’re talking about) never ruled over Vietnam after the Han. The Han are so far before our games timeframe that by your logic all Romance cultures should be in the same group.
How long do you think the Han dynasty was? Not 1000 years. It's clearly not all I was talking about. Vietnam was also under the rule of the Liang, Sui, and Tang dynasties, and was militarily occupied by the Ming less than 20 years before 1444. China directly controlling Vietnam was still obviously not a thing for most of the medieval period though.

Not in favor of them being Chinese culture at all though.
 
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I also find it really funny that one of the infamous nations to have Hostile Coring Cost precisely because of resisting the Chinese time and again is now part of their culture group.

Hey guys, you know the Moroccans? They're Iberian now, just in case they want to conquer Spain!
 
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Hey @neondt i have a little q. Do you plan to add mission tree for Persia ? If it's not a secret.

I'd like to write large mission trees for Persia, the Ottomans, and the Mamluks. Though it's not something that's explicitly planned for right now. And my time on EU4 is coming to an end so it'll be out of my hands soon enough. Personally though I think a free update focusing on adding mission trees to the Middle-East would be a good idea.
 
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I also find it really funny that one of the infamous nations to have Hostile Coring Cost precisely because of resisting the Chinese time and again is now part of their culture group.

Hey guys, you know the Moroccans? They're Iberian now, just in case they want to conquer Spain!
Them not being friends doesn't mean that they aren't culturally similar.
 
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Being in the same culture group will immidiately make vietnamese an accepted culture once Ming conquers it, because Ming holds "cultural union" status from game start. Now, just consult your history books, if the vietnamese shared that perception during Ming occupation, or if they rather revolted in a long and bloody war to gain liberty from the chinese alien forces!?

@neondt please fix :cool:
Lol. If Champa or Khmer had conquered Dai Viet, there would have been a much bigger revolt.
 
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