• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

EU4 - Development Diary - 18th of August 2020

Good morning! As promised, the focus of today’s dev diary is Vietnam.

dd_vietnam.png


In 1444 Dai Viet is a newly independent nation, having won its sovereignty in a bloody war against the occupying Ming Chinese forces through the efforts of Vietnamese national hero Lê Loi. Early campaigns against Champa began a centuries-spanning process of Vietnamese expansion southwards. Dai Viet is now ruled by Lê Loi’s infant grandson Bang Co, though true power resides with Queen Regent Nguyen Thi Anh and Trinh Kha (a 2/3/5/1 General). For all the promise of the early Lê dynasty, the seeds of its undoing were already present; the immense power that would be hoarded by the Nguyen, Trinh, and Mac families would divide the nation multiple times throughout our period.

dd_dai_missions.png


Shown above is the new Vietnamese mission tree available to Dai Viet, Annam, and Tonkin. Some highlights:

  • Like other nations in this update, Dai Viet receives many Subjugation CBs through its mission rewards. Dai Viet gets Subjugation CB’s on Lan Xang, Lan Na, Khmer, and Ayutthaya. They later get permanent claims on Burma.
  • The rightmost mission branch begins with the Rule Muang Phuan mission. Muang Phuan is a small semi-independent nation in the strange position of being guaranteed by both Lan Xang and Dai Viet, while also being a tributary of Ming. You can either try to diplomatically vassalize Muang Phuan or ignite the powder keg of war with Lan Xang by launching an invasion.
  • The Defy Ming mission can allow you to steal the Ming subject Yue during their Crisis Disaster, so it may be worthwhile to time completion opportunistically. The mission also reduces Ming’s Mandate by 20, so again it pays to be opportunistic and complete the mission when you’re ready to engage them on the battlefield.
  • Completing the Claim the Mandate mission fires an event that allows you to cosmetically change your nation’s name. You can choose between Viet Nam, Dai Nam, or stick with Dai Viet.
  • The Purchase Western Arms mission requires having strong relations with a European power present in the East Indies, and rewards a permanent -30% Artillery Cost and +10% Siege Ability.
  • The Faith and Learning mission requires constructing many Temples and achieving high religious unity. If you are playing a Confucian nation this rewards a large permanent bonus to your Harmonization Speed, else it permanently reduces your Idea Cost by 5%.
  • The State Education mission requires the construction of Universities, and adds Institution progress to your capital for each Institution that is active but not yet fully present in the capital.
  • The Imperial Citadel mission does something I can’t talk about yet, but also gives you the opportunity to move your capital to Hue, or else rename Dong Kinh to Hanoi.

I’ve excluded the four missions in the top left part of the mission tree because they deserve a bit more elaboration and they’re tied to some additional content for Dai Viet.

dd_disaster.png


These four missions are aimed at preventing exactly the scenario seen above. The player must consolidate the power of the state and curtail the power of the powerful noble families, or else they will eventually make a major power grab and divide the country in two. A new Disaster, called the Northern and Southern Dynasties, can fire after the Age of Discovery when Dai Viet has a particularly incompetent ruler. By following the mission tree this disaster is relatively easy to avoid, but if you do decide to play through it you can choose whether to side with the northern or southern faction. Historically this happened twice at different times during the period, but in EU4 it can only happen once, with slightly different effects depending on when it happens. The northern dynasty, represented by the Tonkin tag, is ruled by the Mac dynasty if the Disaster fires during the Age of Reformation and by the Nguyen dynasty in later Ages. The southern dynasty, represented by the Annam tag, is controlled by Lê loyalists in the Age of Reformation, and afterwards by the Trinh family (descendants of Trinh Kha). Land is divided between the north and south of the country, and even includes dividing subject nations between the two contenders for the throne - so if for example Dai Viet had vassalized Ming and Khmer, Ming would go to the northern dynasty while Khmer would go to the southern dynasty. Dai Viet is now reformable by both of these breakaway nations.

So, how do you avoid all this? The four missions required to do are as follows:
  • Dai Viet begins with a new generic Estate Privilege for the Nobility called Control of the Army. This privilege greatly increases Nobility influence, increases Leader Cost, adds additional Nobility influence whenever you recruit a leader, and adds a little monthly Army Tradition (it’s not all bad). The Control the Army mission requires you to revoke this privilege while building to 100% of your land force limit.
  • The Curtail the Nobility mission requires reducing the influence of the Nobility estate while holding at least 50% Crown Land.
  • The Restore Examinations mission refers to the Confucian examination system employed by China, Vietnam, and Korea throughout various points of their respective histories. State officials must complete a series of examinations that test their knowledge of Confucian literature and statecraft before they can assume office, a system that was at least theoretically meritocratic as the examinations were open to all. You must enact The Examination System government reform (shown below) while also employing any 3 advisors without running a deficit.
  • Prevent Division simply requires you to own Dai Viet’s core territories, have 2 stability, and for neither Tonkin nor Annam to exist. Completing this mission prevents the Northern and Southern Dynasties disaster from ever happening, and rewards -10% Stability Cost Modifier for the rest of the game.

dd_govreforms.png


I mentioned The Examination System above, which is a new government reform that increases your Advisor Pool by 1 and reduces Nobility Influence by 10%. This reform is available to any nation that either has the Celestial Empire or Confucian Bureaucracy reform. Confucian Bureaucracy is yet another new government reform, initially granted to both Dai Viet and Korea in 1444. This reform reduces your Advisor Costs by 10% and is available to nations that have either Confucian religion or Vietnamese primary culture. Dai Viet's government had more in common with Chinese administrations than with the mandala-style governments of the rest of South-East Asia, while characterizing Korea's government as an "Autocracy" felt inadequate; the Confucian Bureaucracy reform kills two birds with one stone in this sense.


dd_culture.png


On the topic of culture, I’ve altered the culture group setup in the region since I last talked about it. The Tai group contains countries that could sensibly form the nation of Siam, and since Siam is very much a focus for the update and an “historical winner” of the period it feels appropriate for them to have a strong culture group. Northern Thai is back but renamed to Khon Muang. Khmer is left on its own, again appropriate given that this period is very much a dark age for Khmer civilization. The Vietnamese culture, on the other hand, has been “buffed” by moving it into the Chinese group. This allows Dai Viet to hold the Mandate of Heaven without penalty and eases expansion into China on the way to achieving that goal. Miao is now in the Tibetan group, which was done less because it really fits into that group and more to move it out of the Chinese group. Cham has been returned to the Malay group, which gives it access to the Malay mission tree in addition to its own unique mission branches, which you can see below.

dd_champa_missions.png


Some highlights from the Cham mission tree:
  • The Reconquer Indrapura mission tasks you with reconquering the two provinces to your north. On completion both provinces become Cham culture, and Shunhua is renamed to Kandarapura.
  • Completing the Conquer Vietnam mission rewards -20% Culture Conversion Cost for the rest of the game.
  • Completing Subjugate the Highlands grants a Subjugation CB against the weakened Khmer Empire.
  • The Malay Connections mission requires that you have a moderately powerful Sunni ally in the Malaya region, such as Malacca. On completion you are offered an opportunity to convert to the Sunni faith.
  • The Expedition to Tondo mission requires conquering parts of Luzon and having a Colonist from any source. It grants +25% Colonial Range for the rest of the game, encouraging an early exploration of the Americas.

That’s all for this week! Since I’ve decided to take a short vacation this week, I may not be around to answer questions - or at least not as quickly. For the same reason next week’s dev diary may be a little shorter and focus on some of the minor nations we haven’t talked about yet like Lan Na and the Shan states.
 

Attachments

  • dd_champa_missions.png
    dd_champa_missions.png
    575,5 KB · Views: 0
  • 66Like
  • 26Love
  • 16
  • 10
  • 7
Reactions:
Happy to see northern thai back,

not super happy about the current culture set up (I think vietnamese, zhuang + miao would make a better group)

Also Ligor is still Malay, despite it being a thai kingdom, would be another small buff to the thai culture group as well as just plain historical accuracy to fix this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhon_Si_Thammarat_Kingdom
 
  • 4
Reactions:
  • Dai Viet begins with a new generic Estate Privilege for the Nobility called Control of the Army. This privilege greatly increases Nobility influence, increases Leader Cost, adds additional Nobility influence whenever you recruit a leader, and adds a little monthly Army Tradition (it’s not all bad). The Control the Army mission requires you to revoke this privilege while building to 100% of your land force limit.
Is this privilege used anywhere else? It seems like a very interesting effect, especially the part where recruiting generals grants estate influence. Could probably see application in other parts of the world.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Pity the examination system is so lackluster... But oof, that confucian beurocracy! Did someone say flip to vietnamese culture? While being Theravada. Excuse me while i

Trade in tea, 10%
Therevada 10%
Confucian beurocracy 10%
Meritocratic Recruitment 10%
estate privilege 25%
Innovative 25%

90% cost advisors. Not even hard.

And once you take mandate you can even drop the estate privileges for that absolutism.
 
I can see that culture group discussion is dominating the comments. Here's a final statement on that:

There is no culture group setup that will please everyone. This is the culture group setup that is best from a gameplay perspective. I have considered this from various angles and this is the setup we will be almost definitely be shipping with. Further discussion is extremely unlikely to sway me so consider if continuing this discussion is a good use of your own time.
One idea would be to include some cultures in multiple groups. Not just in Asia- for example, Savoy could be part of both French and Italian culture groups. Not only would this be historically accurate, but it would also be good for game play. (I do realize that this would be beyond the scope of the coming update, just a thought for the future).

One other thought though; -10% adviser cost is a pretty weak government reform, I'd suggest either raise the number or include some other small benefit.
 
  • 8Like
Reactions:
Including the entirety of East Asia in the Chinese group in 1444 would be unfeasible gameplay-wise. Not only were the numerous Northern hordes, tribes and kingdoms (The Mongols, Oirats, Uyghurs, Jurchens, etc.) not sinicised yet, the culture group would be way too large, coming in at somewhere around 2500~3000 dev, which is almost twice the size of the German group (the current largest culture group in-game).
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Since Champa in real history didn't have plans on taking Luzon and perhaps colonization, if you were ever to think of updating Philippines and finally make up that it's "in scope", I hope their missions are about colonization. They have the best position in South East Asia to reach the New World. I have also been thinking of Cebu and Madyas having different mission trees.

Cebu can get the mission called "Restoring the Chola Empire" which grants permanent less aggressive expansion impact and less core creation cost for the "Philippine Tiger" achievement.

Madyas on the other hand will get a limited time of colonial range bonus to reach Mexico faster for the "Sun Invasion" achievement. The permanent bonus might be just about more global settlers?

Since EU4 is more of an alternate history game and there are the formable nations of Zeelandia which is fictional in the timeline. I really suggest adding the formable Filipino nation. Whereas the Luzon kingdoms name that formable nation as "Luzones", Visayan Kingdoms as "Visayas" and the Mindanao tags as "Bangsamoro".

Here are some fair and balanced NIs I could ever think of:

Trad:
-10% idea cost
+25% chance of new heir

Riches of the Archipelago
-15% dev cost or -10%

Repulsion of The Ming Fleet by the Lantakas
+15% art. combat OR +1 art. fire
-15% art cost
(Real event in history, reliable, cheap bamboo cannons)

Struggle of Unification
+20 global settlers

Flexible Isolation
-15% stab cost mod

A melting pot of identities
-25% culture conversion cost

Banaue Rice Terraces
+15% goods produced or +10%

Manila Galleons:
+10% heavy ship combat

Ambition:
+5% discipline

The Missions I could suggest of the formable nation will heavily focus on colonization but has little claims on their Malay neighbors. The closest I could imagine they'd expand on is Borneo and Sulawesi. They'll also have the mission to convert to Catholic, and can be completed by discovering a Catholic province.

Now, these ideas are balanced and some are based on their events and landmarks which played significant roles for the economy of the Filipino polities. Don't tell me this is overpowered
 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Since Champa in real history didn't have plans on taking Luzon and perhaps colonization, if you were ever to think of updating Philippines and finally make up that it's "in scope", I hope their missions are about colonization. They have the best position in South East Asia to reach the New World. I have also been thinking of Cebu and Madyas having different mission trees.

Cebu can get the mission called "Restoring the Chola Empire" which grants permanent less aggressive expansion impact and less core creation cost for the "Philippine Tiger" achievement.

Madyas on the other hand will get a limited time of colonial range bonus to reach Mexico faster for the "Sun Invasion" achievement. The permanent bonus might be just about more global settlers?

Since EU4 is more of an alternate history game and there are the formable nations of Zeelandia which is fictional in the timeline. I really suggest adding the formable Filipino nation. Whereas the Luzon kingdoms name that formable nation as "Luzones", Visayan Kingdoms as "Visayas" and the Mindanao tags as "Bangsamoro".

Here are some fair and balanced NIs I could ever think of:

Trad:
-10% idea cost
+25% chance of new heir

Riches of the Archipelago
-15% dev cost

Repulsion of The Ming Fleet by the Lantakas
+15% art. combat OR +1 art. fire
-15% art cost
(Real event in history, reliable, cheap bamboo cannons)

Struggle of Unification
+20 global settlers

Flexible Isolation
-15% stab cost mod

A melting pot of identities
-25% culture conversion cost

Banaue Rice Terraces
+15% goods produced

Manila Galleons:
+10% heavy ship combat

Ambition:
+5% discipline

The Missions I could suggest of the formable nation will heavily focus on colonization but has little claims on their Malay neighbors. The closest I could imagine they'd expand on is Borneo and Sulawesi. They'll also have the mission to convert to Catholic, and can be completed by discovering a Catholic province.

Now, these ideas are balanced and some are based on their events and landmarks which played significant roles for the economy of the Filipino polities. Don't tell this is overpowered

those are not fair they are busted. That's better than Spanish ideas. 15% dev cost and 5 discipline already make the ideas Teir 1. 15 goods and 1 artilery fire moves it up to the top 4 idea groups in the game. Tied or maybe even better than Russia and hindustan
 
Last edited:
  • 6Like
  • 2
Reactions:
those are not fair they are busted. That's better than Spanish ideas. 15% dev cost and 5 discipline already make the ideas Teir 1. 15 goods and 1 artilery fire moves it up to the top 4 idea groups in the game.
Oof, alrighty, how about just +10% goods and just +10% art combat? And reduce the -15% dev cost to only -10% dev cost. Does that make it fair?
 
Oof, alrighty, how about just +10% goods and just +10% art combat? And reduce the -15% dev cost to only -10% dev cost. Does that make it fair?

I think that puts it on par with top teir European nations still top ten not exactly sure where. Its always hard to compare dev cost to mil ideas. So im not sure exactly where it falls. But its inline with good Japanese daimyos in power level. Definitely the best ideas set in SEA. Guess it depends what your game design intent is as to whether its apropriate. But its not broken at least :p
 
Question, You previously stated that You no longer assign cultures to culture group based on language. Could You reassign Korean Culture to a bigger culture group then(maybe Chinese/Japanese)? Because currently Korean are the only culture in Korean Culture Group, like Khmer.
Have You considered a mechanic that allows to "move" primary culture to the other culture group, if you control all provinces of culture? I know this was used previously when Jurchens by forming Manchu were moved to Chinese group.


Also, are the Dai Viet missions "Defy Ming" and "Claim the Mandate " the same missions for Khmer - "Defy China" and "Take the Mandate"?
 
Last edited:
  • 7Like
  • 1
Reactions: