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EU4 - Development Diary - 18th of August 2020

Good morning! As promised, the focus of today’s dev diary is Vietnam.

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In 1444 Dai Viet is a newly independent nation, having won its sovereignty in a bloody war against the occupying Ming Chinese forces through the efforts of Vietnamese national hero Lê Loi. Early campaigns against Champa began a centuries-spanning process of Vietnamese expansion southwards. Dai Viet is now ruled by Lê Loi’s infant grandson Bang Co, though true power resides with Queen Regent Nguyen Thi Anh and Trinh Kha (a 2/3/5/1 General). For all the promise of the early Lê dynasty, the seeds of its undoing were already present; the immense power that would be hoarded by the Nguyen, Trinh, and Mac families would divide the nation multiple times throughout our period.

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Shown above is the new Vietnamese mission tree available to Dai Viet, Annam, and Tonkin. Some highlights:

  • Like other nations in this update, Dai Viet receives many Subjugation CBs through its mission rewards. Dai Viet gets Subjugation CB’s on Lan Xang, Lan Na, Khmer, and Ayutthaya. They later get permanent claims on Burma.
  • The rightmost mission branch begins with the Rule Muang Phuan mission. Muang Phuan is a small semi-independent nation in the strange position of being guaranteed by both Lan Xang and Dai Viet, while also being a tributary of Ming. You can either try to diplomatically vassalize Muang Phuan or ignite the powder keg of war with Lan Xang by launching an invasion.
  • The Defy Ming mission can allow you to steal the Ming subject Yue during their Crisis Disaster, so it may be worthwhile to time completion opportunistically. The mission also reduces Ming’s Mandate by 20, so again it pays to be opportunistic and complete the mission when you’re ready to engage them on the battlefield.
  • Completing the Claim the Mandate mission fires an event that allows you to cosmetically change your nation’s name. You can choose between Viet Nam, Dai Nam, or stick with Dai Viet.
  • The Purchase Western Arms mission requires having strong relations with a European power present in the East Indies, and rewards a permanent -30% Artillery Cost and +10% Siege Ability.
  • The Faith and Learning mission requires constructing many Temples and achieving high religious unity. If you are playing a Confucian nation this rewards a large permanent bonus to your Harmonization Speed, else it permanently reduces your Idea Cost by 5%.
  • The State Education mission requires the construction of Universities, and adds Institution progress to your capital for each Institution that is active but not yet fully present in the capital.
  • The Imperial Citadel mission does something I can’t talk about yet, but also gives you the opportunity to move your capital to Hue, or else rename Dong Kinh to Hanoi.

I’ve excluded the four missions in the top left part of the mission tree because they deserve a bit more elaboration and they’re tied to some additional content for Dai Viet.

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These four missions are aimed at preventing exactly the scenario seen above. The player must consolidate the power of the state and curtail the power of the powerful noble families, or else they will eventually make a major power grab and divide the country in two. A new Disaster, called the Northern and Southern Dynasties, can fire after the Age of Discovery when Dai Viet has a particularly incompetent ruler. By following the mission tree this disaster is relatively easy to avoid, but if you do decide to play through it you can choose whether to side with the northern or southern faction. Historically this happened twice at different times during the period, but in EU4 it can only happen once, with slightly different effects depending on when it happens. The northern dynasty, represented by the Tonkin tag, is ruled by the Mac dynasty if the Disaster fires during the Age of Reformation and by the Nguyen dynasty in later Ages. The southern dynasty, represented by the Annam tag, is controlled by Lê loyalists in the Age of Reformation, and afterwards by the Trinh family (descendants of Trinh Kha). Land is divided between the north and south of the country, and even includes dividing subject nations between the two contenders for the throne - so if for example Dai Viet had vassalized Ming and Khmer, Ming would go to the northern dynasty while Khmer would go to the southern dynasty. Dai Viet is now reformable by both of these breakaway nations.

So, how do you avoid all this? The four missions required to do are as follows:
  • Dai Viet begins with a new generic Estate Privilege for the Nobility called Control of the Army. This privilege greatly increases Nobility influence, increases Leader Cost, adds additional Nobility influence whenever you recruit a leader, and adds a little monthly Army Tradition (it’s not all bad). The Control the Army mission requires you to revoke this privilege while building to 100% of your land force limit.
  • The Curtail the Nobility mission requires reducing the influence of the Nobility estate while holding at least 50% Crown Land.
  • The Restore Examinations mission refers to the Confucian examination system employed by China, Vietnam, and Korea throughout various points of their respective histories. State officials must complete a series of examinations that test their knowledge of Confucian literature and statecraft before they can assume office, a system that was at least theoretically meritocratic as the examinations were open to all. You must enact The Examination System government reform (shown below) while also employing any 3 advisors without running a deficit.
  • Prevent Division simply requires you to own Dai Viet’s core territories, have 2 stability, and for neither Tonkin nor Annam to exist. Completing this mission prevents the Northern and Southern Dynasties disaster from ever happening, and rewards -10% Stability Cost Modifier for the rest of the game.

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I mentioned The Examination System above, which is a new government reform that increases your Advisor Pool by 1 and reduces Nobility Influence by 10%. This reform is available to any nation that either has the Celestial Empire or Confucian Bureaucracy reform. Confucian Bureaucracy is yet another new government reform, initially granted to both Dai Viet and Korea in 1444. This reform reduces your Advisor Costs by 10% and is available to nations that have either Confucian religion or Vietnamese primary culture. Dai Viet's government had more in common with Chinese administrations than with the mandala-style governments of the rest of South-East Asia, while characterizing Korea's government as an "Autocracy" felt inadequate; the Confucian Bureaucracy reform kills two birds with one stone in this sense.


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On the topic of culture, I’ve altered the culture group setup in the region since I last talked about it. The Tai group contains countries that could sensibly form the nation of Siam, and since Siam is very much a focus for the update and an “historical winner” of the period it feels appropriate for them to have a strong culture group. Northern Thai is back but renamed to Khon Muang. Khmer is left on its own, again appropriate given that this period is very much a dark age for Khmer civilization. The Vietnamese culture, on the other hand, has been “buffed” by moving it into the Chinese group. This allows Dai Viet to hold the Mandate of Heaven without penalty and eases expansion into China on the way to achieving that goal. Miao is now in the Tibetan group, which was done less because it really fits into that group and more to move it out of the Chinese group. Cham has been returned to the Malay group, which gives it access to the Malay mission tree in addition to its own unique mission branches, which you can see below.

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Some highlights from the Cham mission tree:
  • The Reconquer Indrapura mission tasks you with reconquering the two provinces to your north. On completion both provinces become Cham culture, and Shunhua is renamed to Kandarapura.
  • Completing the Conquer Vietnam mission rewards -20% Culture Conversion Cost for the rest of the game.
  • Completing Subjugate the Highlands grants a Subjugation CB against the weakened Khmer Empire.
  • The Malay Connections mission requires that you have a moderately powerful Sunni ally in the Malaya region, such as Malacca. On completion you are offered an opportunity to convert to the Sunni faith.
  • The Expedition to Tondo mission requires conquering parts of Luzon and having a Colonist from any source. It grants +25% Colonial Range for the rest of the game, encouraging an early exploration of the Americas.

That’s all for this week! Since I’ve decided to take a short vacation this week, I may not be around to answer questions - or at least not as quickly. For the same reason next week’s dev diary may be a little shorter and focus on some of the minor nations we haven’t talked about yet like Lan Na and the Shan states.
 

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This.

Cantonese and Mandarin are not really mutually intelligible. There is no way a Mandarin speaker without Cantonese influence could communicate with a Cantonese speaker colloquially, and vice versa. The pronunciation of Cantonese is also more similar to ancient Chinese when comparing with Mandarin. Cantonese speakers could somewhat guess the meaning of certain Korean and Japanese words (e.g. telephone: denwa in Japanese, dinwa in Cantonese, dianhua in Mandarin).


I'm not sure if putting Vietnamese in Chinese group is a good idea. Language and politics aside, a Dai Viet player going for SEA historically will be surrounded by red cultures which is less than ideal. As a previous poster said giving Dai Viet some Confucian government reforms would be enough, or switch them to a Chinese version of Vietnamese should they choose to go for EoC (which IMO is good since AI will never manage to do so).


admittedly the Jurchen solution would be the most ideal for Dai Viet, it doesn't make a ton of sense for Dai Viet to be in the Chinese group in 1444 when we know Paradox likes to make culture groups to encourage historical expansion say for the Ottomans, that obviously makes no sense for Dai Viet in the eu4 timeframe. Dai Viet would go on to be independent for the rest of the timeframe only further diverging from China culturally.

But if neondt doesn't want to do that scripting for whatever reason he deigns, I do think Dai Viet being in the Chinese group is a buff for the Viet player.

For the AI... yeah they might be screwed. but China did have interests expanding there multiple times over, the reasons the Vietnamese were able to hold out (Guerilla warfare and attrition) are very poorly modeled in game unfortunately
 
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So far I was quite interested in what I read about the SEA update - after all, it's still my favorite region to play in, somehow.

But these culture group changes make no sense to me.
Khmer in their own group, just to nerf them? Considering the alledged practice of "taking" the population of conquered villages by the victor to bolster the meager manpower available in the region, I would expect the cultures of Khmer and its surrounding area to be quite intermixed.

The cultures of Indochina had been changed previously, because having a Mon-Khmer culture group did not improve gameplay. Having Khmer as their own culture pretty much only means the best way of handling that situation is culture converting the land they hold. That is not historical, that didn't happen, as the Khmer still exist to this day. During the dark ages, Khmer culture became intermixed with their occupier's culture, noticeable for example in their language, with the Old Khmer not being understandable to modern Khmer speakers due to influences from other Indochinese cultures. There are many other cultures which get grouped together, even though they shouldn't, but Khmer is the one that gets special treatment? I really don't understand the reasoning of "very much a dark age for Khmer" - that doesn't make them an alien culture, it just means the nation is weak.

The same with the Tibetan culture group, it had previously been fixed, because cultures that aren't related had been put into it. Now we're back to that. Why not put those cultures into their own group? It'd make no difference, unless a Tibetan nation conquers the region, which is excedingly rare.


What blows my mind though, is the Vietnamese culture change. Yes, they were occupied by Chinese dynasties for a long time and technically part of the Chinese cultural sphere, but as others pointed out, why'd they be part of the Chinese culture group while Korean and Japanese aren't? The reasoning behind it, making them focus on going for China and the Mandate of Heaven - that didn't happen in Real Life. It's just not historical. It makes no sense. I know the game isn't a history simulator, but it should at least try to stay as historical as possible until the player intervenes. If Vietnam wants to go for China, it should be a struggle for them, and the unrest of China, being conquered by what they consider a tributary or vassal, coming under rule by what they are unlikely to see as part of their culture, can very well be represented by them not being in the same group.
As it is now, Vietnam will have a very hard time going into Indochina. They are already a different religion, but also being a different culture, the AE incurred for taking on anything but Champa will be insane.

If the Mandate of Heaven culture requirement is a problem, why not change that? Make it a requirement to own certain parts (Beijing, Nanjing, ...?) of China instead or have power projection, tributaries, being a big enough nation...anything else.
Not to mention, the Chinese culture group is already sizeable enough as it is.


As some others suggested, the Jurchen-Manchu solution would also be viable. If you take the mandate as Vietnam, Korea or Japan, you will be given a choice for turning your culture into "Imperial ..." and becoming part of the Chinese culture group - it should come at a cost though, like unrest, lowered tax/production/manpower and such. A whole nation of people won't be turned to a new culture without some trouble after all. Probably should also add unrest to all owned Chinese culture group provinces...


Overall I'm really disappointed by this backpaddling on the culture mess we had in Indochina and with the Tibet group.
And even more so I'm disappointed with the "final statement".
 
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I beg to differ, as long as WS hasn't been reworked, every tag should get +100 Siege Ability until 1821 to get this garbage over with quicker.
On a serious note, temporary bonuses blow, 20 years 20% production yeah f. that, permament bonuses are why I even bother with mission trees, saving mission rewards for when you really need them just sucks, I want my toys now! damn it! It doesn't need to be power creeped OP bs tho, just some lore friendly stuff like idk
"during the golden age of admiral Yu, Korea prospered yadda yadda 5% ship durability 10% dev cost modifier for coastal provinces"

stuff like that. I agree with you on arty cost -30% arty coast out of the world overpowered.
Moderate perma bonuses please, that make some historical sense.
You cant seriously tell me you get excited about 10% army morale for 20 years, you either just insta click it to get actual good missions or save until forever to fight britain for that 1 imperalism war.
You are reading things I didn't write.
Did I say the current 20 year modifier rewards are good? Nah. It should be 50 years IMO.
Did I say that +10% siege ability is OP? Nah. I said that the combination is OP. And that The 30% is too large.
And fixing broken stuff by breaking stuff elsewhere is no solution; fix sieging & warscore directly. We absolutely don't need more sources of permanent modifiers; there are already too many.
 
As a native speaker of both Cantonese and mandarin, I can say that there are areas where there is no equivalent of the cantonese word in mandarin. When speaking to my cousins of similar age but without the knowledge of cantonese like i do, they are only able to catch certain words but not all. I'm not sure of the converse though since it's hard to find someone who knows only cantonese and not mandarin.
 
When I play Dai Viet, I always extend southward before going on Ming so I'm not sure if this is a buff or a nerf. Mid 1500s Ming is broken apart most of the time so I attack Ming ezly at that time after conquer over half of Indochina for forces limit. As a new player, I rarely using mercenary and taking debts. I still suggest Vietnamese still in Indochina group so Dai Viet could build more armies/ships before attack Ming. I suggest to form NamYue (an ancient kingdom South China) as a reward of annexing Yue or "Defying China" When form NamYue, player could chose changing main culture (Vietnamese or Cantonese), which will change their main culture group. If I'm not mistaken, Savoy also has an option like that after finish a mission.
 
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In 1444, the Vietnamese Dong Kinh certainly did not have cultural similarities with the Choang, they were the Nung, an ethnic minority in Vietnam. Lao and Yunnan are culturally different from Vietnam, they are more like Thai. Cham people are definitely not the same culture .Mon - Khmer culture is completely different, it's ridiculous to combine the Vietnamese into this group , I don't think the Vietnamese people in 1444 belonged to the Mon-Khmer culture group
in 1444 I think the Vietnamese have a culture that is quite similar to those of Cantonese. I think Vietnamese people should be given more military power and separated into a special culture, similar to Chinese culture.
 
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