What are the adv and disadv for each land doctrine?

[lwarmonger]

Well...not quite that simple. Each doctrine path advances at a different speed, with the difference being very pronounced during certain years. Also, Human Wave gets small discounts to mobile units, while Infiltration actually suffers a penalty.

Year.....HumanWave...Infiltration
1936.......40/80............50/40
1937.......50/80............50/40
1938.......50/80............50/70
1939.......50/80............50/70
1940.......50/100...........60/80
1941.......70/100...........60/80
1942.......70/100...........70/130 (+10% night attack)
1943.......70/140...........70/130 (+50% night attack)
1947.......70/170*.........90/150** (+50% night attack)

* - Mechanized and Armor only
** - Divisions with Artillery only

The nightfighting bonus, however, trumps all from 1943 on. +50% night attack means that you are never affected by attacking at night, while the opponent is. Technically, you attack better during the night than they can defend; -30% penalty to their -33%. It's gamebreaking once you get far enough in the game to research it. The final tech makes this gap even wider, even at the cost of a little speed and the cost of the Artillery.

Alright, went back and added the numbers again and you are right.

I would still think that different doctrines reward different styles of play. Infiltration Assault is the best in the game... if you have an infantry heavy army. Human Wave is the best for a mechanized force after the 1941 techs are researched... assuming that you have matching tech teams (if I recall correctly, not too many nations have tech teams that match Human Wave very well... although not even American tech teams do well with Superior Firepower Doctrine... which is quite annoying).

 

[orimazd]

This thread will change the way I play this game.

 

[DarkSoul1984]

Yeah, I'm a superior firepower kind of guy, but that's because I am COMPLETELY ANAL about coordinating my air force and army.

 

[unmerged(79229)]

Infiltration Assault also gives night bonuses to some brigades; does this mean that armor/mot divisions normally unaffected by the bonuses acquire those bonuses if they have those brigades attached, and do units that already possess night bonuses gain an additional bonus for having those brigades attached or do they not stack?

 

[blue emu]

Infiltration Assault also gives night bonuses to some brigades; does this mean that armor/mot divisions normally unaffected by the bonuses acquire those bonuses if they have those brigades attached, and do units that already possess night bonuses gain an additional bonus for having those brigades attached or do they not stack?

That's how it would work if the scripting commands themselves worked correctly. They don't. Unless this has been fixed in a recent patch, it's not possible to assign a terrain bonus (such as night_move or night_attack) to a brigade... when you try to do that (as the Infiltration Doctrine tries), the bonus ends up getting assigned instead to the Division-sized unit-type that shares the same internal code number... in this case, to Interceptors.

The bonus would not stack even if it worked... check out the Armor advocate, who gives +5 combat efficiency to both Tanks and SP-Art. In-game, a Tank with SP-Art only gets +5, not +10.

Infiltration Assault is the best in the game... if you have an infantry heavy army.

... and if you don't mind waiting until 1942 or 43 to get your main advantages. Infiltration matures rather late to suit many countries... including Japan.

 

[unmerged(14249)]

1. Attritional Containment (associated with France and Italy)

Italy changed in 1938 to Baistrocchi's doctrine of La Guerra di Rapido Corso. This emphasised rapid manuever, penetration, encirclement and exploitation. This is the Mobility Focus and so Italy starts at the beginning of that path in the 1938 scenario.

The French made a doctrine switch too under de Gaulle and Leclerc.

Andrew

 

[lwarmonger]

... and if you don't mind waiting until 1942 or 43 to get your main advantages. Infiltration matures rather late to suit many countries... including Japan.

Granted, however most doctrines have to wait until at least 1941 to reach their potential (the exception being Blitzkrieg).

What makes up my mind is which avenue the tech teams in the nation you are playing are suited for. I don't think getting a specific doctrine path (let's say Human Wave) without having the tech team for it is usually worth the cost of more or less permanently using up that tech slot and the slower research time for each doctrine involved.

 

[lwarmonger]

Italy changed in 1938 to Baistrocchi's doctrine of La Guerra di Rapido Corso. This emphasised rapid manuever, penetration, encirclement and exploitation. This is the Mobility Focus and so Italy starts at the beginning of that path in the 1938 scenario.

The French made a doctrine switch too under de Gaulle and Leclerc.

Andrew

The Italian Army may have made that switch on paper, but since they were hopelessly inept at it, were still in all practical terms on the Attritional Containment path (or at least on the "doing the best we can with substandard equipment, inept officers, and soldiers who really don't want to be here" path).

On paper (in Mussolinis pipe dreams) they had 8 million bayonets and a first class air force. On paper.

 

[dublish]

Infiltration Assault is the best in the game... if you have an infantry heavy army.

And everyone has an infantry heavy army.

So now we know why I have little respect for people who use Infiltration Assault.

 

[Deo89]

Seriously, the best doctrine is the doctrine that suits the best for the country you play.

USA for example, best for them is Supperior Firepower or even Spearhead, just build tons of Mechs or Moto with AC's attached to them and land with them in Europe, you'll conquer it in no time.

 

[unmerged(79229)]

That's how it would work if the scripting commands themselves worked correctly. They don't. Unless this has been fixed in a recent patch, it's not possible to assign a terrain bonus (such as night_move or night_attack) to a brigade... when you try to do that (as the Infiltration Doctrine tries), the bonus ends up getting assigned instead to the Division-sized unit-type that shares the same internal code number... in this case, to Interceptors.

The bonus would not stack even if it worked... check out the Armor advocate, who gives +5 combat efficiency to both Tanks and SP-Art. In-game, a Tank with SP-Art only gets +5, not +10.

Actually, I feel that is all to the good because it seems to me that if the bonus really applied to brigades, then Infiltration Assault would be best for every army of any composition rather than just infantry, as you could just brigade engineers onto your armor divisions to get the bonus. And it seems like a 50% night-time bonus to interceptors could come in handy...

 

[blue emu]

Actually, I feel that is all to the good because it seems to me that if the bonus really applied to brigades, then Infiltration Assault would be best for every army of any composition...

ONLY if you weren't planning to fight until 1943. That's when you get 80% of that bonus (40 of 50).

Why do so many people keep overlooking or underestimating the time-factor? The friggin' war is almost always OVER by 1943...

 

[unmerged(79229)]

ONLY if you weren't planning to fight until 1943. That's when you get 80% of that bonus (40 of 50).

Why do so many people keep overlooking or underestimating the time-factor? The friggin' war is almost always OVER by 1943...

Sure, if you play as a major power starting in 1936 in vanilla HOI2.

 

[Black_Shade]

ONLY if you weren't planning to fight until 1943. That's when you get 80% of that bonus (40 of 50).

Why do so many people keep overlooking or underestimating the time-factor? The friggin' war is almost always OVER by 1943...

For the nighttime bonus, maybe. But both the UK/Jap/etc can tech rush the +50% morale bonus from the start of the game, which will finish in time for the war to start in 1939/early 1940, giving you basically max morale very early on. Might tie up a tech team for 3 years, but there are so few important techs in the game that this isn't really a huge deal. Although I certainly wouldn't switch doctrines if I was Ger or the SU.

 

[unmerged(7559)]

For the nighttime bonus, maybe. But both the UK/Jap/etc can tech rush the +50% morale bonus from the start of the game, which will finish in time for the war to start in 1939/early 1940, giving you basically max morale very early on. Might tie up a tech team for 3 years, but there are so few important techs in the game that this isn't really a huge deal. Although I certainly wouldn't switch doctrines if I was Ger or the SU.

Have you done this yourself? The -90% advance research penalty really hurts. On a quick check, it seems to take Japan around 5 years to research Infiltration Assault from -36 (25 days per 1% on lvl9 and non-matching field, quick conservative estimate would say that the lvl6 three matching fields guy is around as good as lvl9 with two matching fields, which means it takes 80*25 = 2000 days to research). That would mean it's 41 already, and Inf Assault only gives the +10 bonuses.

Also the night attack bonuses dont apply to mot or mec, thus you wont be benefitting fast armored warfare there. So the question is also where you will be fighting, if it's forests, jungles, mountains, or watery terrain, infiltration seems to get an edge, but if it's plains, then Human Wave sounds like the thing. I'm playing ger, and after stockpiling shitloads of money through trade, I'm having a ball stealing techs at 60g per 25% attempt. Trying to get the Human Wave blueprints from all around, planning on switching to it around -42. If the game isn't over by that time, that is. But it's a long long way to pacific...

 

[unmerged(74954)]

For a nation such as the USA, with a MASSIVE industrial base, I believe that the Superior Firepower is the best throughout the game. The USA, unlike any other nation besides the USSR, can produce anything it wants to, which means a good combination of Mech, Arm, and Infantry, as well as anything else it wants. For example, in my current game as the USA, (1944, trying to invade Japanese home islands), the high Org really helps in the amphibious assaults, and the SPA, vital to Marines and Mech, is also helpful. In 1946, however, it looses the Mech construction bonus, which isn't good. However, I still maintain that it is the best doctrine for the USA.

 

[Lord Finnish]

I think Inflaritation is best doctorine. No big moves happen prior to 1942, and huge morale boost+good org. are good combination in late game. All non-armor nations I play I pick inflaritation.

 

[Jalex]

So playing as the UK unless I take out Japan before 1943 I basically can't?

 

[unmerged(70421)]

it'll be hard without US help, but not impossible

 

[ArneHD]

Especially if they are tied up in China. This might change the way I play the game though, I always thought that Mobility/Spearhead was better no matter what.