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Vivi_

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You forget that building a game from scratch requires some investements. Since no one play EU4 for it's amazing graphics and the detailed physics of its engine, I don't see any reason for the developers to build a brand new game when they release DLC on a regular basis and thus, make more money overall.

From a customer perspective, playing a good game updated with free updates and DLC is better than buying a new one everytime.
Don't forget the learning curve witch isn't flat at all. The older the game is, the more tutorials people can find, the more it can attract more players.
 

ZomgK3tchup

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That could be YEARS in the future, and by then other companies may exist, and the interest in paradox games will probably have cooled.
I haven't seen a single grand strategy game made in the last couple years that does anything close to what Paradox games do. They have hilariously little competition in their niche, and I doubt that a half-dozen competitors are just going to pop up over night.

The only game in recent memory that does something similar to what Paradox games do is Realpolitiks, and it's regarded as a mediocre knock-off. CK2 and EU4 have literally no competition while Stellaris competes with Distant Worlds and Endless Space, both of which are different enough that similarities are in name and genre only.

My only complaint to the DLC model is that it makes modding harder: only only do mods need to update more, but it's a little difficult to make mods that flesh out mechanics while being available to everyone regardless of what DLC they have. I've made quite a few, but I don't bother posting them anymore because of both of these hassles.
 

Sian

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Yeah ... the only thing I think Paradox should consider is some kind of "Season pack" (although that name doesn't quite fit), Limited and extended, that have respectively all expansion dlc, and everything in music/graphic packs as well, as a relatively hefty discount of what they originally was at.

Say a pack with CoP, WoN, RP and AoW (and maybe the Flavour packs?) as 'limited' at say ... equal price to the 'current' DLC before sales? ... and extended being those 4 paired with all the Music/Cosmetic Packs of the period. And so on with the next collection being ElD, CS and Cossacks
 

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If they want to stick with the current dlc model, my stance would be to just release every dlc for free after a certain period of time, say 2 years.

That way we don't have 1000 permutations of the game knocking around depending on who owns what DLC, and instead of just 4 or 5.

And on a cost basis, with each DLC being on average 10$. A person who bought each DLC at release would have spent the equivalent of 4 times the cost of the base game. Given the game is 4 years old, mathematically it's basically the same as re-releasing the game every year with minor updates.

I think this would be better for fans, as if they take a year or two off from playing, and want to come back, they don't have as much of a cost in DLC to pay.

Also, I basically can't recommend this game to my friends to play, because the upfront cost of the DLC is too high. With the old DLC, they've already made their money, so I would just roll them into the base game.
 

Werther

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If they want to stick with the current dlc model, my stance would be to just release every dlc for free after a certain period of time, say 2 years.

They will loose money because some can decide to not buy DLC if they are free some years later. The DLC pack with lower price after some time seems more realistic.

And on a cost basis, with each DLC being on average 10$. A person who bought each DLC at release would have spent the equivalent of 4 times the cost of the base game. Given the game is 4 years old, mathematically it's basically the same as re-releasing the game every year with minor updates.

You can't just re-release a game like that. Reviewers (YT or professional) will just destroy the game, they need to release something more. Release a game is really expensive for a company (marketing etc). I don't think that new player who don't want to play without DLC will invest money in a game because it's EU +1.

Plus, for us (regular player) it would be really bad, every 2 years i have to buy a new version of the game, which is just... the same game with 3 DLC content. I will loose saves, mods, have to install another copy, can't play multi with players who have the other edition etc...

Also, I basically can't recommend this game to my friends to play, because the upfront cost of the DLC is too high. With the old DLC, they've already made their money, so I would just roll them into the base game.

Do what you want, but i have a friend who just started to play and he had a lot of fun WITHOUT DLC. The free patches are cool, and the non DLC version is 100 times better than the vanilla version of the game. Dlc are not mandatory. Now he plans to buy some DLC. Old ones which are wayyy cheaper than what i paid for it.

And, that works: look at steamcharts, there is more players monthly now than 1 or 2 years ago. So i don't think that DLC and free patches are bad for the game. Better than CoD or other AAA strategy, aka release a """"""new"""""" game every year which are just DLC.
 
Last edited:

Badesumofu

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If you're buying all the DLCs day 1 then you're playing the game *a lot* and likely getting very good value for money. If you only play a campaign from time to time, then you can be buying the DLCs only when they go on sale and still getting great value.

Worth pointing out as well that Civ 6 had nearly every feature of Civ 5 + DLC when it was released. Same with EU3 to EU4. I'd say game developers learnt something from the release of Civ V that gamers don't want to buy a whole new game only to lose a bunch of expected features. I expect it will be the same when EU5 eventually comes out, the base will be EU4 plus all expansions. They'll likely make it because they've added all they can to the current engine, or they're in a situation where they really need to be able to assume that a player has all the expansions already because their new features build on and are fully integrated with old ones. We already see this to an extent with Common Sense becoming more and more required.
 

NorthernXY

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Is the protectorate system still broken?
 

Plastic_Duke

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Protectorates don't exist anymore in 1.20, they're merged with regular vassals, something like overseas vassals. At least that's what I've read, somewhere.
 

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USA IS pathetic during this time period. They didn't have a comparative military to Europe until after the Civil War and a world class economy until after WW1...

That is generally because the Founding Fathers had inherited a long-standing tradition from England of distrust towards the standing army, so it was usually kept pretty small for most of the time before World War I. And since USA was busy expanding to the west, their main opponents were native Americans and Mexicans meant that it didn't really need a large standing army anyway.

In cases of war with Mexico, it not only mobilized most of its regular army but also raised additional regiments and mobilized state volunteers. Even its regular army at outbreak of the Civil War was small and had to be augmented through mobilization of state volunteers and raising of additional regular regiments.

There was simply nothing to drive it towards having a large, regular professional army until about the beginning of 20th century. The U.S. army didn't even organize itself into divisions (as we know it, unlike "divisions" in Civil War) until 1916, just shy of a year before U.S. entered the World War I, long after most of European powers already adopted divisions as its main formations.
 

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Protectorates don't exist anymore in 1.20, they're merged with regular vassals, something like overseas vassals. At least that's what I've read, somewhere.

My point was they're broken now, and have been in the past. Paradox is adding floors to a building without the foundation for it and the building is really starting to sway in the wind. Paris in central Africa is another example.
 

Shock360

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My point was they're broken now, and have been in the past. Paradox is adding floors to a building without the foundation for it and the building is really starting to sway in the wind. Paris in central Africa is another example.
But protectorates don't exist anymore, there's no problem. Instead vassals are much more customizable
 

NorthernXY

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But protectorates don't exist anymore, there's no problem. Instead vassals are much more customizable

Is 1.20 out? They were broken for all of 18 and 19.
 

Shock360

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Is 1.20 out? They were broken for all of 18 and 19.
You're discussing a problem that will no longer exist.... I don't see the relevance if it is implemented in the next patch or this one for discussion's sake
 

NorthernXY

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So if the fix is broken in 1.20 you'll be fine because they'll say it'll be fixed in 1.21? Paradox prooved they're fine with bugs if it'll cost money on their end to fix.

Like how my "Paris in Africa" is glossed over. Probably because it can't be refuted. There needs to be a V, time for a new foundation to build something better on.
 

Sian

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Seem to recall a patch notes, noting that the AI would no longer increase Development beyond twice the original amount
 

grommile

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Seem to recall a patch notes, noting that the AI would no longer increase Development beyond twice the original amount
As I understand it, the AI will ignore that constraint if it is trying to force institution progress, which results in the "Paris in Africa" phenomenon being complained about.
 

Arklari

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* Colonize a new world freshly ravaged by devastating first contact diseases, watching your people breed like rabbits to fill out the newly emptied lands! (Pure side effect: A USA that isn't pathetic like in vanilla)

Sorry to reply two pages late, but the way I understand it trying to play something like the USA will absolutely be going against the grain and be even more difficult in MEIOU than vanilla. So this is a bit of a weird argument.

I'm certainly looking forward to the mod update, but I think the team has way overhyped it. As well, M&T make design decisions that people don't like (I'm an avid fan of the series, and they almost had me never looking at the mod again with their terribly low state limit).
 

Politic Revolutionnaire

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That is generally because the Founding Fathers had inherited a long-standing tradition from England of distrust towards the standing army, so it was usually kept pretty small for most of the time before World War I. And since USA was busy expanding to the west, their main opponents were native Americans and Mexicans meant that it didn't really need a large standing army anyway.

In cases of war with Mexico, it not only mobilized most of its regular army but also raised additional regiments and mobilized state volunteers. Even its regular army at outbreak of the Civil War was small and had to be augmented through mobilization of state volunteers and raising of additional regular regiments.

There was simply nothing to drive it towards having a large, regular professional army until about the beginning of 20th century. The U.S. army didn't even organize itself into divisions (as we know it, unlike "divisions" in Civil War) until 1916, just shy of a year before U.S. entered the World War I, long after most of European powers already adopted divisions as its main formations.
You say they didn't need one, I say they didn't have the population to make one plausible anyways. Either way this discussion doesn't belong on this thread.
 

Badesumofu

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My point was they're broken now, and have been in the past. Paradox is adding floors to a building without the foundation for it and the building is really starting to sway in the wind. Paris in central Africa is another example.

You don't have a point. ROM broke them, and now the next expansion is being released they are being fixed. They are working on the foundations as well as adding new floors. Not that I would really call protectorates part of the foundation. The actual foundations are fine.

So, unless your point was that it took all of 2 patches to fix a relatively minor game feature...
 

dezuman

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Sorry to reply two pages late, but the way I understand it trying to play something like the USA will absolutely be going against the grain and be even more difficult in MEIOU than vanilla. So this is a bit of a weird argument.

I'm certainly looking forward to the mod update, but I think the team has way overhyped it. As well, M&T make design decisions that people don't like (I'm an avid fan of the series, and they almost had me never looking at the mod again with their terribly low state limit).

(TL;DR at the bottom)

It's not a weird argument, M&T isn't a blanket "make everything harder because of reasons"-mod. While the USA never became a world power in the timeframe it still went from being an unpopulated frontier to having several million inhabitants and growing fast, which cannot be modeled using vanilla-style development. Sure, the US won't be able to revolt for independence when it's just settled with a few thousand people, but that isn't exactly unreasonable. My point was about actually being able to become powerful later in the game. Of course if one as a colonizing nation focuses on settling the Americas instead of mostly dicking around in Europe one can get a populous USA far earlier than IRL. Basically we both simulate history better *and* allow for more dynamic fun.

As for your second statement that is harder to answer and even more so to answer briefly, but I'll try. I suspect that part of the reason why I am totally sold on M&T 2.0 is that I never really enjoyed pure conquest strategies for several reason, which is kind of an issue because there isn't a lot to do in vanilla (or even old M&T really) other than conquering stuff. Very limited internal politics, very little opportunity to actually develop your country (No, I refuse to consider Vanilla development as anything else than magically increasing arbitrary numbers) and just in general not a whole lot to do and strive for except for war and conquest.
While M&T 2.0 won't be perfect by any means (we have an ever growing list of stuff to be implemented post first release) I still think it's a long shot better than anything before it, simply because you can literally sit for hundreds of years barely fighting a war and still have stuff to do stuff, goals to set and reach and generally things to strive for and achieve. One of my favorite games is actually as more or less pacifist Hungary trying to turn the Balkans into a prosperous urban region (It's pretty shitty to start with). There's simply so much more to gameplay, and while most of the new content can be classified as "peacetime activities" it both lends new dynamics to war and doesn't necessarily make conquest harder.

And as for M&T making design decisions that "people don't like", that isn't exactly black and white. Many parts of the mod seems really terrible to outsiders that don't know that many things work very differently there. I could say completely out of context that provinces have a base unrest of 24 and that every province gets a modifier that mostly gives tons of monthly local autonomy. What that wouldn't capture is that it's all part of a system that basically makes remote lands harder to control but also gives autonomous provinces far less unrest to allow large empires without constant rebel whack-a-mole, while also making sure big nations aren't necessarily unstoppable behemoths if they don't make an effort to solidify control in their provinces (Like, say, building roads and stuff. Hello roman empire!).

But in the end me going on about this isn't going to change anyone's mind, so I'll just say this:
TL;DR: Try out M&T 2.0 when it releases and see if it's your cup of tea, it has far more stuff AND better performance than the current version of the mod!