That is odd. It appeared in my game, so it is not completely missing.
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Espionage Megathread: The good, the bad and the review
- Thread starter A2ch0n
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Does anyone else made the observation that the "Arm Privateers operation doesn't work? I get to the final step but after "commence opperation" nothing happens.
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Crisis Beacon works! I tried it on Prethoryn when they were headed to the east part of the galaxy and when I used beacon on empire that was on the west side of the galaxy Prethoryn fleets immediately changed their course.
So I think this operation can be actually quite good and useful when fighting Crisis because you can steer their fleets to another direction and eat their starbases and homeworlds from behind.
Arm Privateers didn't work for me.
But yeah, espionage mechanics are actually quite good. The only problem are some of the operations that are either too expensive or totally useless (or both) and maybe that there are really not that interesting ways to increase your encryption/codebreaking.
So I think this operation can be actually quite good and useful when fighting Crisis because you can steer their fleets to another direction and eat their starbases and homeworlds from behind.
Arm Privateers didn't work for me.
But yeah, espionage mechanics are actually quite good. The only problem are some of the operations that are either too expensive or totally useless (or both) and maybe that there are really not that interesting ways to increase your encryption/codebreaking.
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Good to hear!
This is what is so frustrating. There is a solid, well thought out framework of a cool mechanic, but the execution is lackluster. Why not make sure that the system works flawlessly? Adjust costs and effects of all operations to be sensible and working from day one?
It is simply shoddy workmanship, and it is not a sign of quality, and it is very annoying.
My one sentence review:
Wtf were they thinking?
My longer review:
IRL diplomacy rarely goes like this:
Diplomat 1: We'd like to propose this treaty.
Diplomat 2: No.
Diplomat 1: May I ask why?
Diplomat 2: NEVER!
For some reason Pdx felt the need to hide virtually all information. Fleet, tech and economic power are all varying degrees of reasonable. The existence of defense pacts not so much, as they completely lose their deterrent value if they are secret. And hiding the rationale behind agreeing or disagreeing is just dumb.
If the intent was to force the player into infiltrating all their contacts in order to conduct diplomacy, maybe dont tie it to Envoys, of which we only have two or three most of the time.
I'm leaving Stellaris on the shelf until I see a dev diary about massive changes to espionage, unless there's an option I can select to disable it that I dont see right now..
Wtf were they thinking?
My longer review:
IRL diplomacy rarely goes like this:
Diplomat 1: We'd like to propose this treaty.
Diplomat 2: No.
Diplomat 1: May I ask why?
Diplomat 2: NEVER!
For some reason Pdx felt the need to hide virtually all information. Fleet, tech and economic power are all varying degrees of reasonable. The existence of defense pacts not so much, as they completely lose their deterrent value if they are secret. And hiding the rationale behind agreeing or disagreeing is just dumb.
If the intent was to force the player into infiltrating all their contacts in order to conduct diplomacy, maybe dont tie it to Envoys, of which we only have two or three most of the time.
I'm leaving Stellaris on the shelf until I see a dev diary about massive changes to espionage, unless there's an option I can select to disable it that I dont see right now..
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Yeah, I think the big thing the system needs is some sort of filler stuff that won't annoy people, but allow people feel like they are being proactive. My biggest critique, is you spend sizable chunks of time twiddling your thumbs if you want to do lots of espionage stuff. If one wants to be very passive with their espionage, then the setup is probably just right. I'm currently playing as a crisis empire and I'm to a point where I've build up and can afford to start doing lots of things, so that's a point where I'm not too bothered by the costs because I've got plenty of other things occupying me.
My suggestion for early game and playstyles that want to be more espionage focuses. I focused on asset costs because it feels if it were a bit cheaper it could really help give people some more to do. That said, I'd also suggest another operation that helps speed up infiltration gain for operations. What I would with this one, is have a minimum still for being able to do it, but instead of consuming infiltration, it consumes assets. If done right this could get a balance where more active players feel like they are doing something without it feeling like busywork. The trick is making the costs are just right that things feel right, but people don't feel like they are getting ripped off by burning their assets, given that assets are pretty good and thus you also don't want a situation where asset gain is too easy and quick.
That's a rough idea of what I'd try first, but really what the system needs is a throttle so that people can go more proactive with it when they want to, but can stick with the current pace or drop to it, when they want to be less active with espionage.
Finally, I feel it's a little unfair to put spark diplomatic incident as C rank. I think B- is a more fair assessment because I suspect it's primary purpose for existing is to be a cheap accessible option for crisis empires to earn some quick menace points. Regardless of what manipulation operations you deploy against you adversaries, you get ten menace points regardless. As the cheapest manipulation operation, that is really useful because you'll hit a point where you really don't need ore favors to stonewall the inevitable GC move to stop you. Smear seems to be of very little use in comparison because it's more expensive and eventually you hit a point where it won't let you target the empire relations you want. That said, it isn't higher than B- because the benefits outside of menace point farming are questionable, but mainly it does seem to hit some sort of CD (don't know if it's a hard CD or a soft CD, where the target empires diplomatic corp has had so many scandals that new ones apparently can't happen and this does eat into its value for crisis empires.
My suggestion for early game and playstyles that want to be more espionage focuses. I focused on asset costs because it feels if it were a bit cheaper it could really help give people some more to do. That said, I'd also suggest another operation that helps speed up infiltration gain for operations. What I would with this one, is have a minimum still for being able to do it, but instead of consuming infiltration, it consumes assets. If done right this could get a balance where more active players feel like they are doing something without it feeling like busywork. The trick is making the costs are just right that things feel right, but people don't feel like they are getting ripped off by burning their assets, given that assets are pretty good and thus you also don't want a situation where asset gain is too easy and quick.
That's a rough idea of what I'd try first, but really what the system needs is a throttle so that people can go more proactive with it when they want to, but can stick with the current pace or drop to it, when they want to be less active with espionage.
Finally, I feel it's a little unfair to put spark diplomatic incident as C rank. I think B- is a more fair assessment because I suspect it's primary purpose for existing is to be a cheap accessible option for crisis empires to earn some quick menace points. Regardless of what manipulation operations you deploy against you adversaries, you get ten menace points regardless. As the cheapest manipulation operation, that is really useful because you'll hit a point where you really don't need ore favors to stonewall the inevitable GC move to stop you. Smear seems to be of very little use in comparison because it's more expensive and eventually you hit a point where it won't let you target the empire relations you want. That said, it isn't higher than B- because the benefits outside of menace point farming are questionable, but mainly it does seem to hit some sort of CD (don't know if it's a hard CD or a soft CD, where the target empires diplomatic corp has had so many scandals that new ones apparently can't happen and this does eat into its value for crisis empires.
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It's more the other way. Actually we have a lot of filler operations because it's easy to mitigate real consequences. It would be much better if each decision the target make at least give some move in the direction you want. And with a difference in Codebreaking and a good Asset there should be only one option left. Much more important than the effectiveness is a free choosing for your target. The operation need a full list of all known contacts of your target empire (at least for smear and diplo incident).
It's meant to divide allies or federations. And actually it isn't possible to archieve this controlled and organized. Of course you can have a lucky punch. But thats not the way it should work.
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Assets are in a strange place. When you do not get assets early on someone he can shut you out of espionage by reaching a +3 encryption advantage. That lowers the maximum infiltration level below the level to get new assets and you are stuck, barring events.
If you get assets though there is nothing the enemy can do to stop you from spying or run operations against you. Thanks to his assets he will always be able to get more assets and raise his infiltration level no matter what the codebreaking/encryption difference is.
I feel there is a operation missing to remove an asset an enemy has on you.
If you get assets though there is nothing the enemy can do to stop you from spying or run operations against you. Thanks to his assets he will always be able to get more assets and raise his infiltration level no matter what the codebreaking/encryption difference is.
I feel there is a operation missing to remove an asset an enemy has on you.
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This is a problem i encountered recently too! You can of course catch up as soon you get the Encryption (Codebreaking) techs and with psi ascension. But especially in the early game this can be a problem. The solution would be a lowering of the network level requirement. Everything else is still fine.
This would be a cool idea! But i actually that would require to run a operation against yourself. Maybe another solution would be better here.
From looking in the files the past few days I can say:
- There are no provocation assets at all (though a mod could make some, they just dont exist in vanilla).
- Hives do not spawn sabotage assets
- MIs do not spawn manipulation assets
Assets are held in the root of a spynetwork... in english, if I am spying on you any assets I have on you are "held" in "my spynetwork aimed at you".
It should be possible to write an operation where you target me, and aim to randomly destroy an asset. Further, I have also been doing tests on decisions in operations, you can hold up to 3 decisions (based on default UI)
.png "Screenshot (4974).png")
So you could have an operation "TARGET ASSETS"
and then on phase one "Target: blue / yellow / red assets" (as there are no purple/provocation ones in vanilla) - with the buttons greyed out (or defaulting to abort operation) if they don't have that type.
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Yes. I've looked into the Asset file for that by myself yesterday and i was really surprised about the missing provocation assets. Why aren't there any specialists an an empire that are trained in covert operations? They should be very rare, yes but still exist. I will add some into my mod potentially.
The Hive and MI missing assets i did notice ingame but i wasn't sure about a complete absence of them, i rather thought it was simply a much lower chance. But i think that is quite logical and most likely i wouldn't change this.
there are only 2 vanilla provocations: bait crisis, arm privateers.
Having a crisis specialist wouldnt make much sense, maybe "criminal contact" (non gestalt) would work for arm privateers, and I remember seeing that different assets from other operation types can already do different things (e.g. saboteurs) in the starbase one, so I guess it just wasn't needed and they can have some overlap too.
I've also been able to come up with a few special contacts, e.g. an Ex-Legionnaire for a Galactic Emperor Assassination mission i'm planning out. So you can give them pretty weird conditions to spawn too
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Well to be honest you missed the real improvements needed.
The fault with espionage is that is its a flavorless effort that certainly has a wall of text behind it but doesn't really add much to the game. You can completely ignore it.
- Separate sound notifications from all other systems
- We need a separate screen dedicated to just espionage where we can manage all operations with ease.
- We need a separate leader structure so that all empires have an equal ability to pursue espionage
- Current system favors races who have more envoys
- Current system has no flavor, envoys cannot have traits, cannot level
- We need costs that are more appropriate to the type of work being done
- We need a lot more simpler missions that we have now
- Discovery missions which reveal the map or particular system
- Discovery missions which show ship positions for a decaying amount of time
- Discovery missions which reveal current researching technologies
- Discovery missions which may show off the build of a planet
- Discover missions which show off defenses of a planet
- Then increased difficulty versions which allow you to target a system for activities
- The ability to run multiple missions against one empire, again requires separate leader structure
- A defensive side to the whole system
The fault with espionage is that is its a flavorless effort that certainly has a wall of text behind it but doesn't really add much to the game. You can completely ignore it.
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I've made a list with ten additional operations that i will implement to my mod, as well improving all existing ones. But i i've decided to stay away from assassination missions actually. The only three legit targets for a assassination in my opinion are a chosen one, the great Khan and as you mentioned a galactic emperor.
In case of the chosen one, it would realistically fail. Such a powerfull beeing would sense the plot against him and stop the assassin even before it's attempt.
The Khan is part of the crisis and officially we can't spy against it. So maybe this would be cool, but it would be a huge gamechanger.
The Emperor is most likely a good target, but that would most likely even more annoying for a player emperor than anything else. After taking a lot of time and resources to become the custodian, make the term limit permanent and finally ascend to emperor, that would maybe a bit harsh. Don't know. I'll have a look at your idea as soon you reveal it
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Yeah there might be a workaround I've not thought of yet, but it doesnt look like there are any triggers to spawn a operation, in the same way you can spawn a digsite. Perhaps it could be an option (for the khan) by targeting any country that is a satrypy of the Khan ("kill overlord"), that might work. Gotta screw with the triggers some more, though if there arent changes to how sucessor khans work, too, it'll completely neuter them as a crisis.
Killing the emperor wouldn't stop you from being the Empire, as its hereditary, but it would be a flashpoint for rebellion, and with some slight tweaks to the heir event, it may spark an interregnum + separate sucession chain for the emperor player/nation.The Emperor is most likely a good target, but that would most likely even more annoying for a player emperor than anything else. After taking a lot of time and resources to become the custodian, make the term limit permanent and finally ascend to emperor, that would maybe a bit hash. Don't know. I'll have a look at your idea as soon you reveal it
My current rough plan for the operation (as I want to practice with a few other operations first) would have it be more like "oceans eleven" than "hitman", with the final kill mission gated behind a few other tasks, possibly tied to other countries in the imperium.
Also no clue yet how I'd deal with Gestalt Emperors (i've not actually seen one ingame yet so IDK if there is anything special going on there), maybe you just kill the avatar/drone on the throne - it damages unity as people see the emperor is not infallible, but that's about all you can do, as another drone takes its place 5 mins later. But yeah we'll see how it turns out.
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Not sure if that is needed. To get a +3 advantage before someone can get assets on you, at least in the early game, requires some investment. The encryption tech comes rather late from my experience (but that might just have been RNG) and is only a temporary measure as you can get the equal amount of codebreaking through tech.
Early game a +3 advantage usually comes through a combination of ethos (gestalt), civics and APs (Enigmatic Engineering can be taken as 2nd AP) which represents an investment (although in the case of gestalt empires it might just be an additional benefit and not the main reason you take it).
So how much chance should someone have to run operations against them without investing into the same things (ethos, civics, APs)?
If both sides minmax, the attacker will be able to get more assets from the defender as the minimum infiltration level is 30 (although some RNG is involved). And both sides must invest heavily (imo the defender more than the attacker).
I would like to hear an update from you as soon you've tested that. Could be quite interesting! I actually try to make my mod without any overwrites if possible. If you do the same, your mod is mabe compatible with mine
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Hello guys,
I think A2ch0n and Pancakelord should teamup and make an espionage mod together. Both of you have really great ideas to push espionage to a completely new level.
Count me in for extrem testing if you need some help on that end.
IMO Stellaris always needed a mechanic for covert actions. With your ideas we will finally get there. Since the days of Birth of Federation I hoped we will come to that point.
For all the people who love playing stellaris but arent a fan off espionage a "toggle on and off button" would be a nice addition.
To see Paradox releasing a system like espionage so unfinished ist very disturbing.
Looking forward for your espionage mod guys
I think A2ch0n and Pancakelord should teamup and make an espionage mod together. Both of you have really great ideas to push espionage to a completely new level.
Count me in for extrem testing if you need some help on that end.
IMO Stellaris always needed a mechanic for covert actions. With your ideas we will finally get there. Since the days of Birth of Federation I hoped we will come to that point.
For all the people who love playing stellaris but arent a fan off espionage a "toggle on and off button" would be a nice addition.
To see Paradox releasing a system like espionage so unfinished ist very disturbing.
Looking forward for your espionage mod guys
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By filler, I mean stuff that you do that makes it feel like your proactive, but done in a way to ensure that the overall pacing isn't changed too much. Like I said, the big issue is that you're stuck twiddling your thumbs waiting for stuff to build up in order to do things. If one isn't into espionage, this is fine, but the moment you want to be more proactive, it's pretty awful. This is also factoring in that paradox is trying to avoid having a setup where it ends up being awful to play against, hence the whole no assassination thing. That said, I do think if they made assets cheaper to get, it would give plenty of room to say have operations to weed out hostile assets. So this is probably a factor in why smear feels so underwhelming because they don't want it to be super easy to bust up federations or alliances.
Asset operation should be cheaper, I've found that even in end game, if you go for a certain build, it's possible to luck people out if they get all the techs, but don't enable the edict. I don't think it should ever be at a point where someone is stuck unable to do anything, while they wait for RNG to give them an asset or having to invest valuable resources to ensure they never get hard countered like that. The strength with the edict and psionics shouldn't be that you always have a foot in the door. The edicts big draw should be you have another envoy and have to do less for base intel. Psionic has all the good stuff. I don't think either would be hurt if one could always have access to getting more assets with max codebreaking techs; especially, if there were operations that removed random assets.
I do wish we could use the system much more against crisis stuff. Not sure how best to achieve that because well the crises are trying to kill you. The failure to include them really undermines the espionage system.
Also as an aside, I wish the crises players had more to gain from this system. The poor interaction really undermines the playability of the become the crisis perk. Unless someone wants to take forever to hit crisis level, it's not feasible to really earn most of your menace points through this system, it take far too long and it's a shame. I would have loved it if we had to converging paths that led to the same goal for the perk. The obvious one is being hyper aggressive and warring your way to victory, and the one they kind of keep from happening is the more more cloak and dagger approach where you use espionage and diplomacy to essentially build yourself up. Obviously, both converge on galactic war because espionage and diplomacy will only buy you so much time in regards to stopping the galaxy from going after for trying to destroy it. I will say for solo games, there really should be an option to make use of your currently useless envoys to maybe coax some factions in the empires you're fighting to rebel and join your cause. I wouldn't put it in it MP because that could get really annoying to play against, plus if every player is reasonable, if the game feels like it's dragging, players can come to agreement on how to speed things up to the conclusion.
Really, the big thing the system currently suffers from is too much thumb twiddling and not a ton of feeling proactive and useful. Assets being made cheaper, operations to burn those assets to build up the rate of infiltration for better operations and operations to remove hostile assets could be the right setup to make the system feel proactive and useful, but also avoid an issue where people hate playing against it.
The secondary issue is that it doesn't jive with the pre-level 5 crisis path or have any use for level 5 crisis and IMO that shouldn't be the case. At least in solo play, MP is it's own can of worms.
Asset operation should be cheaper, I've found that even in end game, if you go for a certain build, it's possible to luck people out if they get all the techs, but don't enable the edict. I don't think it should ever be at a point where someone is stuck unable to do anything, while they wait for RNG to give them an asset or having to invest valuable resources to ensure they never get hard countered like that. The strength with the edict and psionics shouldn't be that you always have a foot in the door. The edicts big draw should be you have another envoy and have to do less for base intel. Psionic has all the good stuff. I don't think either would be hurt if one could always have access to getting more assets with max codebreaking techs; especially, if there were operations that removed random assets.
I do wish we could use the system much more against crisis stuff. Not sure how best to achieve that because well the crises are trying to kill you. The failure to include them really undermines the espionage system.
Also as an aside, I wish the crises players had more to gain from this system. The poor interaction really undermines the playability of the become the crisis perk. Unless someone wants to take forever to hit crisis level, it's not feasible to really earn most of your menace points through this system, it take far too long and it's a shame. I would have loved it if we had to converging paths that led to the same goal for the perk. The obvious one is being hyper aggressive and warring your way to victory, and the one they kind of keep from happening is the more more cloak and dagger approach where you use espionage and diplomacy to essentially build yourself up. Obviously, both converge on galactic war because espionage and diplomacy will only buy you so much time in regards to stopping the galaxy from going after for trying to destroy it. I will say for solo games, there really should be an option to make use of your currently useless envoys to maybe coax some factions in the empires you're fighting to rebel and join your cause. I wouldn't put it in it MP because that could get really annoying to play against, plus if every player is reasonable, if the game feels like it's dragging, players can come to agreement on how to speed things up to the conclusion.
Really, the big thing the system currently suffers from is too much thumb twiddling and not a ton of feeling proactive and useful. Assets being made cheaper, operations to burn those assets to build up the rate of infiltration for better operations and operations to remove hostile assets could be the right setup to make the system feel proactive and useful, but also avoid an issue where people hate playing against it.
The secondary issue is that it doesn't jive with the pre-level 5 crisis path or have any use for level 5 crisis and IMO that shouldn't be the case. At least in solo play, MP is it's own can of worms.