CKIII Dev Diary #26 - Map Scope

[elvain]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

why why would you do that?!?!!?

because that's how it's supposed to be in the medieval era?
For the entire middle ages nobody managed do that. Medieval naval technologies simply did not allow that.

 

[Servancour]

I've seen a whole bunch of requests for other areas already. I won't be able to post screenshots of everything, but here is a little something at least. Arabia, the Danube and Eastern Carpathia, and India:

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

There is this mapbuilding feature I see all the time in videogames and media that makes no sense and bugs me a lot, and it seems its happening here as well.

And that is making the "border" between the Green/Atlantic/Central European and the Dry/Mediterranean/South European terrain somewhere in the middle of France, and simultaneously making Spain equally dry all around.

There is no big difference between the climates and landscapes of North and Southern France, in fact, the South is probably even greener due to the forested and mountainous landscapes of Occitania compared to the vast farmlands of the North.
On the other hand, there is a MASSIVE difference of climate and landscapes within Spain.

Example:
France: Piccardie compared to Rouergue, insignificant differences.
Spain: Galicia compared to Almeria, incomparable differences.

See what i mean?


I took a look at a satelite map of Europe and eyeballed where you could see the place where the terrain becomes visually different and did manage to divide Europe and the Near-East into 4 different zones. Unsurprisingly it also seems to correlate with the type of biome of that area.

Not expecting you to change anything at this point in development, but i'm just raising awareness for this commun misconception.

 

[Arkangelus]

I am EXTREMELY ANGRY that it seems YET AGAIN that you have UNFORGIVABLY made Ayrshire a single county instead of being split into 14 subdivisions. The historic parish of Western Kilmarnock is not even present as a historic site on the map despite the area growing COUNTLESS POTATOES and ARABLE LAND FOR COWS which contributed SOMEWHAT to medieval Scotland being a place where you could be free enough to eventually contribute somewhat to the reformation. I will only buy 3 copies of this game and all the dlcs in protest until you fix this.

 

[Slime99]

Okay, some gripes with Ingria.
The area shouldn't be a piece of Novgorod, but split in two. Vodi (an Estonian tribe) and Izhori (Karelian tribe). Vodi (and Izhori) would often would align themselves with Novgorod, but not entirely a part of Novgorod prior to 1149, when Novgorod repelled an invasion of Tavastians/Jäämi/Em/Häme. Izhorians lived in the east around Neva and would later penetrate further into Ingria.

Vatjalaiset – Wikipedia

fi.wikipedia.org

Водь — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Inkerikot – Wikipedia

fi.wikipedia.org

Ижора — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

 

[elvain]

Ok here's an idea for a compromise about the African coast thing. Maybe they can put a river tile across the coast so only certain cultures can cross ocean to africa.

A good try, but it would be as historical as allowing ships to cross the Atlantic straight from Spain/Canary Islands to Central America.
Nobody did that in Middle ages with medieval sailing technologies and nobody could, untill the mid. 15th century.

The reason is:
1) there were constant currents as well as constant winds both in the same direction. Ships therefore could go one way, but not the other - hence nobody could return back and since nobody was known to ever come back, nobody risked to go there.
2) Some people claimed that Vikings could, because they used oars. Yes, with oars they obviously could sail against constant currents and winds at the same time (as they did against rivers). The tiny problem here is that along the coast of West Africa, this situation is for some 1200 kilometers. Nobody could push against constant wind and current for 1200 kilometers straight. Not even the Vikings. Note that this distance is almost 300 kilometers more that straight from Norway to Iceland... and even the Vikings didn't go straight, but always stopped either at the Shetland or Faroe Islands... which makes this twice as much as the longest distance crossed by the Vikings.
The Phoenicians did, however - in the 6th century BC - and this would be legitimate claim. But here comes the third crucial constraint:
3) The coast all the way from Nul Lamta in Morocco (a bit north of Cape Bojador) was deserted with no ports or even water sources. One could go there and back if one could refill his supplies, but you can't refill your supplies when there's no sweat water nor food you can get from the coast for a lot more than 1200 kilometers. Ho would the Phoenician Hanno do that? He did that in times, when the Sahara was a savanna inhabited by gazzeles, giraffes and lions, just like we know from Saharan paintings made by the Garamantes. In the times of Hanno the Navigator, neither the Sahara, nor the coast of West Africa were deserts. And it is fairly possible that at that time, 2000 years before the Portugeese crossed this way, the currents and winds might have been different than a millenium later, at the start of Medieval period.

With this said, before the new navigation techniques, which allowed sailing against the wind, in the 15th century, nobody could sail around West African coast and back.
This naval route was in fact as hard to cross as the central Atlantic (with no possible stops on the way for more than 1000 kilometers)... so allowing it is like allowing Sailing to the Americas across the Central Atlantic... I mean - it was more possible to cross the Atlantic in the north, where you could stop and refill every 500 kilometers, than along the coast of West Africa, where you couldn't do that for over 1200 kilometers.

 

[Silversweeeper]

Paradox devs: let's not add China, that's too much

Also Paradox devs: AFRICA DOWN TO KONGO THO

As someone that's quite familiar with what it takes to add "China", comparing what has been added in Africa to a "China" addition is silly.


China itself would need to contain quite a few more provinces than were added in Africa (call it 50 counties) if you wanted to do it justice (even if you went with the EU4 province setup it'd be upwards of 100 provinces, and considering baronies are on the map you'd very likely want considerably more), and you'd likely want to add areas outside China proper since, you know, Tang was the overlord of Annam (Vietnam) in 867 and Liao held land in/had subjects in China proper and Manchuria (which wouldn't be great to skip; if nothing else, Jurchen Jin originated there and the Wanyan dynasty would be around in 1066), and with those additions you're also looking at Korea (it would be weird to skip it if you have China proper and Manchuria), the Shan states (since they'd be between Dali/Nanzhao (which would be odd to skip, seeing as they're in China proper) and Bagan and having that area impassible would be weird), and Champa (as they interacted quite a bit with Vietnam and China) as good things to add, which in turn makes the rest of SEAsia and Indonesia as far east as Bali more-or-less mandatory as they interacted with Champa and each other, makes Japan "necessary" (they didn't have a whole lot to do with the mainland in the era, so an argument could be made to skip them, but that would of course be an unpopular move if you're adding areas nearby), and makes various islands between Java and Japan rather appealing to include since they interacted with other realms previously mentioned, meaning you're looking at quite a bit more than what is necessary to just add China proper.

Culture-wise, it'd probably be 40+ (it depends on how granular you want to be, but using EU4's number for the relevant area that number isn't unreasonable) new cultures (I would assume the additions in Africa required significantly less than that), and judging by how granular CK3 religion is you'd probably be looking at at least a dozen religions (not counting reformed versions of unreformed pagans) in the Far East (there's roughly two "extra" religions south of where the CK2 map ends in West Africa, judging by the screenshot, and I'd assume there aren't considerably more in East Africa), and while the former might be relatively straightforward fleshing out the latter would be no small task.

What about characters? It is hard to say from the screenshots how the history files look in Africa, and just how extensive they are obviously depends on how complete the family trees in the area are (perhaps there's just a ruler and an heir per county for 867 and the same for 1066, perhaps not) and whether they extend further back (or further forward), but using the 50 county ballpark figure, assuming no ruler holds more than one county, and assuming there's a new ruler every 20-25 years you arrive at about 500 characters. The Imperial Family of Japan alone from Emperor Saga (who might be too late a cutoff, seeing as you'd not be able to properly connect the Taira clan to the Imperial Family if you had a cutoff after Emperor Kanmu) to Emperor Go-Sanjo's children (most of them were born before 1066) is about 250 characters, not including spouses belonging to other dynasties (some of which were quite extensive; the Fujiwara clan alone would be about as many as the Imperial Family unless you aggressively cut side branches), and they're of course only a small fraction of what you'd need (particularly since they'd not be the de facto rulers of anything (other than the bare minimum they'd presumably get to be playable), seeing as they'd be figureheads in both 867 and 1066), so Japan alone would easily be in the neighbourhood of 1k characters (quite possibly several times that if you're being thorough), and even if Japan is assumed to be character-heavy compared to some other areas, even if you ignore historical characters that wouldn't be needed for any start date (e.g. early rulers that mainly make the title history files more interesting and people holding vassal titles between 867 and 1066), and even if you cut "unimportant" characters (e.g. children and siblings of rulers that never amounted to anything) you're easily looking at 5k characters (and simplifying things would easily lead to complaints about the devs not doing the Far East justice, and seeing as various other title histories/family trees are fairly complete that wouldn't be entirely baseless), meaning you're looking at an order of magnitude more characters than for the new areas in Africa.

Mechanics-wise, you'd have to contend with a number of realms not being well represented using a normal feudal or tribal government type (the new additions in Africa are probably adequately represented by those), the small matter of the regent in Japan (and, if you want to include mechanics for later in the era, also the possibility of a Shogun, who might have a regent of his own (who in turn might be subordinate to someone; it was quite messy)), and numerous other things (e.g. China's view of itself as the centre of the universe and the fact that anyone interacting with them had to play along).

On top of all of that, you also have to contend with various balance considerations (China would be a pretty big blob in both starts, but if you want a remotely historical situation in the region they shouldn't steamroll their neighbours, to name one thing to consider), making the region interesting to play in (particularly as vassals might normally be held on a very short leash as internal warfare in China should be the exception rather than the rule), and of course performance (it would cost more performance to add "China" than what little extra has been added in Africa, even if the cost still might be within acceptable bounds).


TL;DR: Any proper addition of "China" would have been far more work than that needed to add what has been added in Africa, so the implied suggestion that the latter would be the only trade-off you'd have to make is laughable.

 

[Servancour]

What is the "Cultural Fascination" that the House of Wisdom provides a bonus to? Is that something to do with technology or cultural tolerance?

We'll talk more about that in the future!

 

[Atimo3]

Time for some big brain vibe checking of African religions' names

Akom: No complains here, a proper name for the faith of Ashantiland, and less generic than just Akan Paganism.

Bori: Yeah, I can see that B on the side. It’s Bori, it’s a good name. Moving on.

Bidaic: Assuming this is the cult of Bida the serpent. It works, not much worse than other alternatives. It’s a made up word, but one that makes sense.

Roogan: I am pretty sure in a previous diary this one was called Roog Sene. At this point I am pretty sure the reason why Paradox doesn’t just give A ƭat Roog its proper name is because their system can’t handle the letter Ƭ . Which is a technical issue, I am not going to pretend I understand the limitations programmers face. Not a fan, but they are probably doing their best.

Siguic: Ok, this one is bad. The Sigui is a very important festival among the Dogon, but calling the entire religion after a festival seems very weird. I suggest they follow the pattern they established with Roogan and Bidaic and just name the religion after the head god Amma.

Orisan: This one is bad because there is a much much better alternative available, Ifá. I assume that by this they meant the cult of the Orishas, but the catch is that only the Yoruba call their gods that. Ifá, however is the name of the religious practice and is also used in the rest of the region (the Igbos and Ewes call it Afá). A proper well extended name is much preferable to a made up one.

[I had this make this one twice, curse you server update!]

 

[Servancour]

@Servancour
However I see the Keban and Karakaya dam lakes have been added around around Kharpert. These are obviously modern constructions and were not present at the time.

Duly noted. I'll see if we can get that fixed.

Will buildings like the Pyramids and the Hagia Sophia get graphical models on the map like they have in CK2?

Is there a graphical distinction between buildings of different cultures on the map? I honestly can't really see any.

Some special buildings will be visible on the map. Both the Pyramids and the Hagia Sophia are examples of those. We haven't added them all of them to the map just yet.

There is a difference, yes. It might be difficult to tell from the zoom level I used for most of the screenshots though. They won't look the same in India as in Europe for example.

 

[Zhetone]

I don't understand the crowd upset China isn't in but more of Africa is. Adding more of Africa requires adding no new systems and not so many provinces, while China is like adding a 50% expansion of the entire map and requires entirely reworked systems, otherwise it'll just be absurd, and it will also require massive balancing to ensure China doesn't just steamroll everything around it every game.

The development time required to adequately represent China, especially considering how outraged a lot of people would be if it were added in half-baked, just doesn't sound reasonable if they want to meet their release date. Clearly they concluded that it was not something which was wise to do in the development cycle, but it might be better this way long-term for China In people because it means when it is added, it'll be added with full attention given to it, rather than it having bad mechanics now which are only tweaked later or something.

 

[Tschobo]

I agree I would have rather seen East Asia than Sub-Saharan Africa, but that alas, people on these forums can't handle any opinions that aren't worded in a positive way.

And I don't want China and Japan in. At least for the launch. China is one of the empires that needs an imperial government, which in the launch is not possible or even planned. There were many issues and complaints from the fans of the ERE and same goes for China (in the case the ERE was a region that is not avoidable in this game and played a huge part in the timeline). Also, in my mind Japan would also need a different type of government than feudal or clans or tribal. I would love to have East Asia in, but as long as the imperial government is not implemented, it is not feasible.

And one additional point. Playing out one region against another is usually not the best to manifest your opinion (some of us waited for the current split of the African religions and the removal of the cuts of Mali and Somalia). As I said, I would love East Asia, but for now, it is not feasible.

 

[Meshed Gear]

No viking raids in Africa, I’m afraid!

Achievement: Devs aren't the boss of me.

As a ruler of viking culture, raid a province on the West Africa coast.

 

[DahndI]

No viking raids in Africa, I’m afraid!

Challenge Accepted!

 

[FAB11AN]

Just a few things that I would like to ay/suggest (feel free to take it into consideration or not):

1. I think that the Levant and Egypt need to be more detailed, the current map you showed doesn´t allow for much strategic depth in an area (specially the levant) that should be a hotspot the whole game, seeing epic battles between muslims, crusades, the byzantines, the turks, the mongols, etc. I would suggest having more detail as it would allow for Crusader states to be more special and diverse and you could reflect the paulatine decadence of this states (as the map is right now I fear they would be gone in a war or two).

2. I´m quite impressed by the Sub-Saharan development. I actually didn´t think there could be a game under there that was interesting, immersive and feudal. I think the layout that you made is tremendously well done and will allow for a new area that is quite different from the rest of the game to be played. I really like the idea that only some countries are allowed to go through the rivers and I was wondering if it could be possible for some desert countries to be able to travel through desert wastelands and raid the neighbouring countries (the same could be done to arabia). This could be done with some oasis in the middle of the desert and only allowing this realms to be able to travel through (or maybe other non desertic realms could reach there through the desert but suffering horrible attrition and doing so really slow). This could allow for desert realms and routes to be represented and I think it could be a cool way for this Sub Saharan realms to not be so isolated from the rest of the world.

3. I also feel that maybe you should reconsider the defensive bonus from the Alhambra. Sure it was a great defensive fortification and quite impressive, but it was more of a "palace complex" than a fortification. Besides, I think is quite crazy that there is any fortification better than the Theodosian walls given that these are, by all acounts (with more than 20 proofs of it) the best medieval fortifications. That is why I think that maybe it is interesting to shift the Alhambra to something more cultural (after all it is the final splendor of islamic culture on the Iberian Peninsula), while keeping Theodosian walls to be something more defensive. Actually, I think it would be really cool and immersive if a siege of Constantinople was something you could only do if you have a really strong army as it was in real life. In real life the only way to overcome those walls would be with treachery (which would be awesome if could be implemented in some way) or late with massive cannons, and still then, Mehmed´s army was way bigger than the defending army.

4. The iberian peninsula I think also needs a little bit more depth as one problem it had in CK2 is that is low amount of provinces (compared to for example france which in ck3 seems to have a really high density) didn´t allow for a representation of the Reconquista struggle in which muslim and cristian kingdoms had fierce fights for centuries, this fights are hard to be represented when in a few wars the cristian (or muslim) realms have almost conquered the whole of Iberia. Maybe you could see about some special building such as the Pilgrimage site in Santiago and the Cordoba´s Mosque. Apart from that I think you should revise where Astorga lies on the map as I believe is a bit more to the right xD.

Keep up with the good work!!

 

[Keizer Harm]

The only map screenshot I'm missing is the Valley of Mexico. Surely the most crucial CK2 expansion hasn't been left out of the sequel?

 

[Servancour]

First the map looks pretty. Some questions though.

1.) The Notre Dame building states it is Level 1 Notre Dame: does that mean like Great Works in CK2, these special buildings would have levels?
2.) Could we have a screenshot of India and its religious diversity and any special buildings there?
3.) Could we get a map of the British Isles and its religious diversity and any special buildings?
4.) what is next week's dev diary about?

1. Some special buildings do. Such as the mentioned Alhambra. Notre-Dame doesn't however. The "Level 1" is always displayed by default. We'll look into that though.
2+3. I'll see what I can do.
4. You'll have to wait and see! Sadly, it won't be another map related one.

special building will only be constructable in specific counties ? Like notre-dame only in paris ?

Correct. Special buildings are located in specific locations only.

 

[Tschobo]

Paradox devs: let's not add China, that's too much

Also Paradox devs: AFRICA DOWN TO KONGO THO

Would you prefer a random cut in Africa, I at least don't. And it doesn't go down to Kongo but ends with a more natural cut. And without an imperial succession type and imperial events (I would even say that it would also need proper Nomads too) China would be as bizarre as the ERE currently looks and honestly it would cause the same uproar as the announced feudal elective for the ERE caused. And they never said that China will never come.

 

[Asiak]

Are we going to get any macro zoomed out shots pre-release?

Also as gorgeous as it looks I think a video of actually moving around the map really is needed.