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CKIII Dev Diary #26 - Map Scope

Salutations!

As a continuation from last week, I will be talking about the scope of the map and, perhaps more importantly, showing you how it all actually looks. Get ready for a very screenshot heavy DD!

Europe
Europe has been reworked from the ground up. We made sure to give all of Europe proper attention when painting baronies and counties. It was important for us to make sure we have a good and consistent quality level across the map. I’m sure you’ll find eastern Europe in particular fleshed out with a lot more detail than what you may be used to in CK2.

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Since we’ve already shown bits and pieces of Europe in screenshots and videos, let’s have a look at a few specific locations, and what special buildings they have available. Starting with France, it felt like an obvious choice to include Notre-Dame, one of the most recognizable cathedrals of the time period.

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Next up, Iberia. Featuring two major rivers, plenty of hills and a few special buildings. In the county of Granada you’ll find Alhambra. While merely an old ruin at game start, it can be upgraded to offer some of the highest fortifications in the game.

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Speaking of special buildings. The city of the world’s desire, features not one, but two, special buildings. This makes Constantinople a very spectacular holding, and if that isn’t enough, it also has the highest development level in the game.

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Before moving on, I’ll just leave this culture screenshot right here:

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The Middle East
The Middle East has seen the same level of attention and rework as Europe, with some particular attention spent on updating history across the region. For example, the Seljuks control a vast empire in 1066, properly representing their historical borders. They have a plethora of different cultures as their subjects and may fall apart if not careful.

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Development in the region is above your average starting levels. Baghdad, for example, starts out with one of the highest levels of development in the game — bested only by a few other locations such as Constantinople! Baghdad also has one of the single most impressive special buildings available, the House of Wisdom.

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Africa
Africa has seen some of the greatest additions to the map. No longer cut in half, the Sub-Saharan kingdoms have plenty of space to expand in as we have included the entire Nigerian coast.

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We have a total of five different pagan faiths to play as, giving you plenty of different options. A solid first pick would be Benin, within the Niger delta. They start off with a decent development level and access to a special building: The massive construction that is the Walls of Benin.

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Some cultures will start with the ability to sail major rivers, allowing them to use the Niger to quickly ferry troops back and forth. The coast on the other hand, will be open for everyone to use. You won’t be able to sail around the African coast to reach Europe however, or vice versa. That route is blocked by impassable sea, since it was often difficult, if not impossible, to sail along the western coast due to storms and rough seas. No viking raids in Africa, I’m afraid!

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Let’s not forget the Horn of Africa. Expanded to include Mogadishu, the area offers more space to play in, with christian, muslim, jewish, and pagan rulers all wanting a piece of each other.

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Finally, let's mention Egypt. A rich area that has a lot of floodplains, good development levels, and even a couple of special buildings. All encompassed by the Nile, a major river with green and lush vegetation.

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The Far East
Looking east, the map has been expanded to include the entirety of Tibet, along with a small extension of Mongolia, accompanied by a whole set of new cultures and faiths!

Starting with Tibet, the area has a whole bunch of independent realms since the Tibetan Empire is long gone by the time of our two start dates. There’s a wide range of rulers of different faiths and cultures spread out across the plateau. The two most prominent faiths being Bön and Nangchos, a Buddhist faith syncretized with different Tibetan beliefs and practices.

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Turning to Mongolia, there is a powerhouse present in both bookmarks. In 867, you have the Kirghiz Khanate, and Great Liao in 1066. Counties and provinces include Karakorum and the entire area surrounding lake Baikal.

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Expanding Tibet and Mongolia left us with a small empty space in the south, and we really couldn’t have that, now could we? So we went ahead and filled out Myanmar (or Burma) down to the Gulf of Martaban with brand new baronies and counties. Which gives you two rather interesting starting options. In 1066, you’ll be able to play as king Anawrahta of the Pagan Kingdom. Starting shortly after his conquest of the Mon kingdoms to the south, most of the area will already be under his control, giving you a great opportunity to push into India! Alternatively you can start as Pagan in 867, yet a small and upstarting kingdom, allowing you to play with the unique faith of Ari Buddhism.

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I’ll wrap it up here. Otherwise I’ll end up posting screenshots all day. Do you think I missed an important area somewhere? Let me know and maybe, just maybe, I’ll see if I can’t share some more.
 
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Awesome! Just a few minor concerns:
- How is performance? I remember that performance in CKII tanked for quite a while after India was added, but I assume that this won't be an issue as the game engine is built to handle such a large map.
- Slightly concerned that the expansion to the east is going to reactivate the "China Lobby" and we have to have the fight over including/not including China all over again. :rolleyes:
(
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i personally think we do not NEED CHINA KOREA and JAPAN ITS TOO MUCH TO HANDLE !!!! :) The game about feudalims can not represent a centralized and buerocratic state !
 
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Going to admit i'm very upset by the fact "Porto" is still a single county. Ideally, it should be 3, (Porto, Braga, Guimarães) but realistically i would be happy with just 2 (Porto and Minho)
Minho is always ignored and merged with Porto on strategy games, it has been this way in every CK, EU and HoI game.

This particular area in Northwestern Portugal has always been the most densely populated in the country and probably in the entire Penisula, expecially in the middle-ages.
View attachment 576855
(These are Populations from the early 16th century, sure already a bit outside of this game's scope and isn't representative of 1066, however, it is a documented fact that the Portuguese kings made great efforts to repopulate the centre and the interior (Beiras) in the 12th and 13th centuries, so by 1066 the difference between Minho and the rest of the country (especially Beiras) should be even more exagerated and not less. Unfortunetely I couldn't find detailed analytic data from the early middle ages, so if you do, please feel free to share).

As you can see, 3 out of the top 10 largest cities in Portugal are entirely located within the county of Porto, not a single other county has even 2 of the major cities, much less 3.
It's strategic, economic and symbolic importance is also absolutely fundamental in Portuguese history, the county of Portucale was unsurprisingly seated in Portus Cale (Porto) since 868, Guimarães (founded somtime in the early 10th century) was the second seat of the county from 1095 to its independence in 1143, and court of the first king. Braga dates back to the 1st century A.D, being the Capital of both the Roman district of Gallaecia and the Suebian Kingdom. And was by far the most important bishopric in the country. These three cities definitely warrant being counties and not mere baronies (i can't even tell if they are even baronies, Braga seems to be there but i'm not even sure about Guimarães).

I also don't see the argument of "them being too close to eachother to be represented by different counties" to hold any water, since Porto looks (very ironically considering it was the densest area of Iberia) one of the largest counties in the entire Peninsula. Even if you split Porto into 3, the resulting counties would be no smaller than existing ones such as Moura and Viseu. I can't visually directly compare them to the rest of Europe, but i'm pretty sure France and England are going to have much smaller counties (In CK2, Porto alone was the size of 5(!) counties in Wales) which is unjustified considering the density of Porto is on pair with the French average and far surpassed the English average (unsurprisingly it was the only county who reportedly tried and succeeded in becoming independent).

(Ideally, the entire Iberian peninsula would have more counties but fewer baronies, the Reconquista was a very long ordeal and you shouldn't be able to take a large part of Iberia in a couple of wars, but that's asking for too much at this point, so i'm just going to ask to please consider spliting Porto into at least 2 counties (Porto and Minho).
Thank you for reading.

I'd like to second this request, the distribution of counties in Portugal, especially in the north, could be significantly improved, even more so during the CK3 era.
 
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i personally think we do not NEED CHINA KOREA and JAPAN ITS TOO MUCH TO HANDLE !!!! :) The game about feudalims can not represent a centralized and buerocratic state !
I'm pretty sure they will develop a system for handling them, many countries already on the map used a similar bureaucratic government, including the ERE, the Abbasids, the Umayyads or the Seljuks; I believe they will come back to this in a DLC in the far future.
 
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I don't understand the crowd upset China isn't in but more of Africa is. Adding more of Africa requires adding no new systems and not so many provinces, while China is like adding a 50% expansion of the entire map and requires entirely reworked systems, otherwise it'll just be absurd, and it will also require massive balancing to ensure China doesn't just steamroll everything around it every game.

The development time required to adequately represent China, especially considering how outraged a lot of people would be if it were added in half-baked, just doesn't sound reasonable if they want to meet their release date. Clearly they concluded that it was not something which was wise to do in the development cycle, but it might be better this way long-term for China In people because it means when it is added, it'll be added with full attention given to it, rather than it having bad mechanics now which are only tweaked later or something.
 
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i personally think we do not NEED CHINA KOREA and JAPAN ITS TOO MUCH TO HANDLE !!!! :) The game about feudalims can not represent a centralized and buerocratic state !
why you keep saying its about feudalism ? the game was no more eurocentric since like 2014 so stop saying that . do you understand thet the name CRUSADER in ck2 and EUROPA in eu games are considered right now by the devs "unfortunate relics from the past" after their own words ?
the game is about the middle ages , feudalism or tribalism or islamic iqta or chinese bureaucracy are just sub categories that will define your play style .
so plz stop saying that the game doesnt need a china because the game is about our feudalism and crusades or whatever because the game doesnt represent one culture and religion any more .
 
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I don't understand the crowd upset China isn't in but more of Africa is. Adding more of Africa requires adding no new systems and not so many provinces, while China is like adding a 50% expansion of the entire map and requires entirely reworked systems, otherwise it'll just be absurd, and it will also require massive balancing to ensure China doesn't just steamroll everything around it every game.

The development time required to adequately represent China, especially considering how outraged a lot of people would be if it were added in half-baked, just doesn't sound reasonable if they want to meet their release date. Clearly they concluded that it was not something which was wise to do in the development cycle, but it might be better this way long-term for China In people because it means when it is added, it'll be added with full attention given to it, rather than it having bad mechanics now which are only tweaked later or something.

I tend to agree. I would love to have China in it. But in the current situation it is not feasible. The ERE was a mess in CK2 and also a system like the Mandate of Heaven in EU4 is not that natural. An imperial government would need much more inward focus than the feudal and tribal lands. It would be foolish to implement China as long as the imperial government system cannot be implemented in a proper form. And therefore I see it currently Out of Picture for now.
 
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I hope this means that we will one day get South East Asia (though especially in Indonesia that would require naval combat being a thing) so that we can properly roleplay the Cholas and to generally give India a bit more content.
 
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Isn't it weird in history game to demand to replace historical English name of the city with modern, very recent, transliteration? It's like if in Victoria 2 you demand to rename Bombay to Mumbai and Calcutta to Kolkata. If you know what I mean.
On one of the oldest English maps of the region, Russiae, Moscoviae et Tartariae published by Ortelius (London, 1570) the name of the city is spelled Kiou.
If you go full historic, use this.
 
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any chance you'd spell Kyiv, not Kiev?

Also, are there any special buildings there (St. Sophia Cathedral and the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra are possible candidates)?
 
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https://www.britannica.com/place/Kyiv - this spelling is a norm in modern day English
Why are you continuing to argue? It has been noticed many times by players of the Paradox games that in more recent titles (except HOI4 and Vic2 sans mods) that they have been adding historical local names in the local language (Cordóba rather than Cordova, Porto rather than Oporto). If that is to be respected, then neither Ukrainian nor Russian should be used, but the Old Rusian Kyjev (Києвъ). Same with Minsk, as it would be Mjensk (Мєнскь). Novgorod would be Novogorod (Новъгородъ). I get that you desire accuracy. I do too. But Kyiv is more fitting for if they actually were planning to split Old East Slavic into the East West divide that they will never do to represent Litvins (proto-Belarusians), Rusyns (Modern people in Zakarpat'ya and old endonym for Ukrainians), Novgorodians (who have had their dialect/local language attested to) and the Muscovites. I'm sure that they will do an abstraction that will make it strange.

I know that Paradox likes to do abstractions. Just look at the mess in Vic2 without mods that bundles English, Scots (and Scots Gaelic) and Welsh together as one culture in Britain. Or the grouping of non-Dutch Germanic peoples of the HRE into one German culture and all langues d'oil and langs d'oc as French and Occitan, with the exception of Norman. Don't get me started with Italy. In a game with much detail, it is certainly lacking in cultural detail. This is for CKII and CKIII. It is very strange that the only differences are that Bavarian and Swabian somehow cover more than their historical base (High Franconian language and dialects seem to have been simply absorbed into them). Cisalpine is strange, as it involves Venetia, which was the basis of Venice, a nation that distinguished itself, along with Genoa. Both of these divesrse states have been lumped together in what we can only assume to be a super North Italian culture. This paragraph was my rant that got eaten by the server.
 
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Why are you continuing to argue? It has been noticed many times by players of the Paradox games that in more recent titles (except HOI4 and Vic2 sans mods) that they have been adding historical local names in the local language (Cordóba rather than Cordova, Porto rather than Oporto). If that is to be respected, then neither Ukrainian nor Russian should be used, but the Old Rusian Kyjev (Києвъ). Same with Minsk, as it would be Mjensk (Мєнскь). Novgorod would be Novogorod (Новъгородъ). I get that you desire accuracy. I do too. But Kyiv is more fitting for if they actually were planning to split Old East Slavic into the East West divide that they will never do to represent Litvins (proto-Belarusians), Rusyns (Modern people in Zakarpat'ya and old endonym for Ukrainians), Novgorodians (who have had their dialect/local language attested to) and the Muscovites. I'm sure that they will do an abstraction that will make it strange.

I just fail to understand why in historic title a Muscovite form of spelling (Kiev) is used over Ruthenian in a game that has start dates well before Moscow is founded in 1147 and Muscovy becomes a player on a grand stage? At the CK3 time frame, Grand Duchy of Muscovy is merely a vassal of Golden Horde.
I also strugle to comprenend why do I see a two-headed eagle, a byzantine symbol adopted by Ivan III around 1460 as a crest in Kyiv? What happened to Rurikids, who used a trident as their crest (as is represented in CK2)?
 
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On one of the oldest English maps of the region, Russiae, Moscoviae et Tartariae published by Ortelius (London, 1570) the name of the city is spelled Kiou.
If you go full historic, use this.
The city had many names in English in the past, when all map-makers used to "invent" their own names for exotic places. But for at least the last two centuries the city was known as Kiev. That's what I call "historical name".

I just fail to understand why in historic title a Muscovite form of spelling (Kiev) is used over Ruthenian in a game that has start dates well before Moscow is founded in 1147 and Muscovy becomes a player on a grand stage? At the CK3 time frame, Grand Duchy of Muscovy is merely a vassal of Golden Horde.
It's not Muscovite name. It's Belorussian name. Or Polish.

I also strugle to comprenend why do I see a two-headed eagle, a byzantine symbol adopted by Ivan III around 1460 as a crest in Kyiv? What happened to Rurikids, who used a trident as their crest (as is represented in CK2)?
That's much better questions. Why indeed, Paradox?
 
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My opinion on china and the rest of asia being added.

I'd rather the game is made deeper not wider. Perhaps if systems for basic european stuff become deep enough with actual strategy for grand strategy then yeah sure.

China not bad. But even in CK2 with all DLC it's [mechanics for managing your realm] still pretty shallow.
 
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The transition from Bern to Aosta in South-Western Switzerland is very strange. It would look much more realistic with the province of Valais/Wallis in between them, as the Swiss Rhone valley there is quite big and it also had (and still has) its own diocese for example. In the east of Valais a connection with central Switzerland via the Furka, Grimsel or Lötschberg Pass or with Italy via the Simplon Pass would be possible, but not necessary.

Medieval trade routes in Switzerland:

image.png

Image from http://www.altwege.de/mittelalter-handelswege/handelswege-schweiz.html
 
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