Hey, I like the current westernization... it's very exiting, you never know when an event will ruin your progress so you watch the screen praying 'please, let it be increased RR'. The new one will be pretty much about watching the paint dry... for a decade. Hardly an exiting and fun thing.
1.4 - Westernisation Changed
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I would prefer it to be more bloody (rebels) than long, though. In my last westernizations rebels were not really a problem. Will that +5RR affect this significantly?
The current state of Westernization is quite frustrating, but all in all you can still play through hardships and so on. I just can't understand why they went "mh, the current Westernization is boring, let's change it" and changed it in "watch paint dry", as you say. It's OBVIOUSLY not an improvement, as described.
try westernizing with times of trouble as russia or peasant war as any nation. rebels will destroy you.
I say wait and see what kind of events are going to happen. The wild assumptions in this thread are useless and proven to be wrong so far.
I always assumed that you prepare before westernization and not just start it for the hell of it.
The assumptions are rather simple and based on math, 2400 points are needed for an eastern nation to westernize, you can get up to 30 points per month, 2400/30= 80 months of watching the paint dry.
i didnt read up on events so i got surprised by times of trouble (which pops up at -3 stab) when i westernized in 1550s as russia. i almost rage quit with no income and no manpower but suddenly times of trouble disappeared for no apparent reason (i had like 1 stab) and i was saved. fighting with 80% your forcelimits while bleeding money and loans and with almost no manpower was pretty ridiculous but i survived... it was the harshest and very first westernization i did and took me 50 years from 1550 to 1600.
2400 for Eastern, since you can save 999 of each type, thats 2997 points saved, at 30 points per month used in westernization that means It'll take around 7 years in total to westernize. And as long as you keep getting more points you can keep building buildings or whatever you used to do while westernizing, maybe even war as long as you keep them short and simple and watch the war exhaustion level. For other tech groups you'll have less points to use but at least there'll be events while the thing keeps going.
I was going to ask for the 8 tech behind requirement to be waived but frankly this makes it a non-issue.
I was going to ask for the 8 tech behind requirement to be waived but frankly this makes it a non-issue.
In the current system, you need ~1000 ADM points to raise stability from -3 to +1, which takes ~100 months at 10 ADM/month, and then it takes ~50 more months for your westernization bar to go from 1% to 100%...so 80 months is about half of that, so there's less watching paint dry.
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I'm still confused if this:
means that you can save up a lot of points and use them.
Cause if these are the costs
and you don't lose your existing points you could save up 2997 mp and just let them drain for extreme reductions in westernization time.
means that you can save up a lot of points and use them.
Cause if these are the costs
and you don't lose your existing points you could save up 2997 mp and just let them drain for extreme reductions in westernization time.
I would imagine that some of the events are pretty nasty, so it is probably not just 80 months of watching paint dry. More like 80 months of watching paint dry while dealing with destabilizing and rebel spawning events.
I think what people don't like isn't that it takes a long time, it's that it sinks all of your monarch points during that time-frame, leaving you with nothing else you can really do, and no way to respond to new problems. I'd say it's more of a weakness of the monarch point system than of westernization though. The hoops many players are willing to jump through in order to avoid spending points completely defeat the point. Monarch points were billed as a way of forcing the player to make choices and sacrifices. Here's the thing that's become apparent to me though: players don't want to have to make sacrifices or hard choices, and will do almost anything to avoid it, especially if there's no way to compromise.
Making all the MP costs lump sums gives the player "sticker-shock". It's like having to pay the full price on a new car every time you need a new one. For most people, unless you're really wealthy, the micro-management you'd need to pull off in your everyday life in order to afford that would be completely maddening. The advantage of the slider system of EUIII was that it allowed the player to make long term investments on multiple expensive projects, without completely sacrificing progress elsewhere. It also allowed you to adjust in emergencies. Say you get hit by a nasty event chain, or get pulled into a really bad war. There's no way to pause or slow down westernization in order to focus on a more imminent problem. You're just screwed, and most players are more likely to just give up and quit than spend decades recovering from a disaster they had no chance of mitigating.
Making all the MP costs lump sums gives the player "sticker-shock". It's like having to pay the full price on a new car every time you need a new one. For most people, unless you're really wealthy, the micro-management you'd need to pull off in your everyday life in order to afford that would be completely maddening. The advantage of the slider system of EUIII was that it allowed the player to make long term investments on multiple expensive projects, without completely sacrificing progress elsewhere. It also allowed you to adjust in emergencies. Say you get hit by a nasty event chain, or get pulled into a really bad war. There's no way to pause or slow down westernization in order to focus on a more imminent problem. You're just screwed, and most players are more likely to just give up and quit than spend decades recovering from a disaster they had no chance of mitigating.
I think how it works is it automatically takes 10 points per month per category if you have them. Thus, if you gain 12 per month, 10 of those will go to westernization, and your pool of points will increase by 2 per month. On the other hand, if you only make 8 points per month, then you lose a net 2 points from your pool every month until it reaches 0, and then westernization will only increase by 8 per month instead of 10.
Was really excited about this change but its kind of lackluster, really need some options to go other techs besides western, and I still don't get what the -8tech/neighbor thing accomplishes.
33 months... that's how long it takes. 50 if you do not want to wait for a +1 stab event.
Seeing as it is seemingly capped at 10/month/category, you can't spend more than 30/month. So the time will be unaffected by saving up as it'll still take a minimum of 80 months to spend 2400 points.
Yes, that's it exactly, that's why it is so much easier and faster than before. And you'll still be making more points in the meantime so you're not "sitting around watching the paint dry", it's even less than waiting for AE go down sometimes.
What difference is there to the current system in your opinion? The only clues about the events during westernization, are 'bad' and 'lose process'. How do you even know, in what way the whole westernization is going to happen?
At least with the new patch you can declare war on someone, if you want to spice the process up because youre bored of 'watching the paint dry'.
Gotta say I do not like this change at all. Disregarding the fact if this makes it easier/harder it just seems like a step in the wrong direction. When PI originally announced EU4 you centered your design decisions around "meaningful decisions". It is how you introduced MP. How does taking away all my MP points, essentially taking away choices/decisions/actions I can further develop the idea of "meaningful choices"? At least in the old system I had diplo points to broker peace deals. This update makes me want to afk while it runs on speed 5 after starting westernization. PI has stated before that this game is more focused on conquering than other PI games, but this new westernization is essentially forcing you to be peaceful for 20 years?! The old system still gave you the freedom to choose but with great risks. This new system is essentially saying: "nope, just chill for 20 years, maybe watch France gain a few provinces". Meaningful decisions. Meaningful - decisions. If you felt the current system needed rebalancing, that's fine but this is a step in the wrong direction.
Just ask yourself how this new system can be more fun than the old system when it restricts the decisions/choices you can make more so than the previous system?
Just ask yourself how this new system can be more fun than the old system when it restricts the decisions/choices you can make more so than the previous system?