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Thanks !
Also I encourage you to read the comic this game was based on. Bilal comics are great, if you ever have the occasion of reading one !
(Dunno how easy to find they are in other countries - I suppose in Western Europe at least it should be possible to find)
I think you did really great! It is not every GM that can keep a properly updated front page and post votecounts every day. Having those down already puts you in the good GM category, but the updates quality was just above and beyond for me. I really enjoyed reading them and I think the time delay was okay.
The screwup was entirely on my part, the GM is at right to take as much time as he wants to update (within reason) and non-lynched players can still talk until the update.
However, I would still like to defend my move. It was pretty well thought out and made sense. What we see now is that we lost the game in spite of it, but I wouldn't say because of it. While Graf might have been able to survive the day anyway, the JL was still growing too strong and they were onto most or all of us. The reason I picked aedan to be outed was because he had some votes already so would still be lynched even if not everyone followed the outing, but also because I suspected him of being JL. I think I should get at least some points for figuring that out and also that Alynkio wasn't. That part was the real risk of the move and it didn't actually end up going bad. And if we hadn't changed the hunt to Alynkio everything would have worked out just fine. Of course even with a change of hunt to Alynkio we might have been okay if I hadn't been dumb at deadline, and the hunt at least had some strategic thought behind it, but oh well.
Anyway, I had fun. Thanks to my wolfmates for being an active and fun pack to be in - this was one of my most enjoyable lite games and I think that my packmates are a big part of the reason why.
And thanks of course to Yvanoff for top quality GMing! I do hope you GM again in the future, and invite me when you do, I'll be sure to join.
The general move was a good one, I've tried in the past to create a fake outing as a wolf, but it didn't work out. It weakens the village, denies them a day of voting, and can be a good boon to the wolves. However, it has risks. You acknowledge two mistakes you made with regards to alynkio, though it took both to be a problem. However, I see another issue in your particular strategy, you contacted Alynkio very late in the day to make the outing. This is an unlikely move by someone actually in the JL, so it should've been the first warning to Alynkio that you weren't really part of the JL. This undoubtedly contributed to Alynkio's decision to go public with your contact, less likely to have occurred had you contacted him early in the day and given him a more built out story to have him then out me.
I'm also personally disappointed in myself for not seeing through the ruse of it being a patsy outing until after I had died. Wolf alynkio outing me would have been a stupid and short sighted move, so I only believed that to have occured in the heat of the moment when I was suddenly outed. Granted there was the possibility of him being a wolf planning to pretend to be a patsy, which would've been original, but I didn't even consider the patsy angle until after I died.
I'm also baffled that Drupplesnub was a villager, I'd pegged him as a certain wolf after he jumped on me immediately prior to the outing when I finally followed my suspicion on Graf being a wolf I'd had all game. His subsequent fierce support of Alynkio's false outing and anger at Alynkio's outing of Panzer seemed like waving around a neon sign saying "I'm a wolf." Wasn't expecting him to be either the last non-JL member to be targeted, nor on the winning side.
I think we should explain our strategy. Our goal was to tie two players, making it impossible for the wolves to win. The original switch was going to be to Drupple, however, I was late. That ended up being a blessing as Wagon and Graf were the final wolves. Being able to save Drupple kinda made victory a little bit more sweeter.
Wouldn't that tie attempt have been extremely risky if you had a villager in the tie? An alert wolf could've joined the snipe and killed the villager? Not saying it was a bad idea but it could've backfired spectacularly.
BTW, how did you guys actually catch me? I'm honestly still kinda confused by the reasoning that was given when I got lynched(or did I get scanned over the votesnipe?)
If done last minute, like we did, if there was a villager in the tie, then oh well, there would be 2 cleared villagers who knew each other, the wolves wouldn't have won.
Actually I think the last remaining Werewolf would have surrendered then (or I would have incited him or her to do so).
No sense in letting a hunt that would just rob a villager of a deserved victory take place
We didn't know the identity of the last villager, so a 2 way tie with 1 possible villager was a risk too. The only way we could make this work was a last second vote snipe, just not giving a chance to vote back.
Many thanks for hosting this Yvanoff.
Stellar job as a GM, really. Don't feel you screwed up about anything, because you didn't.
Congratulations to my fellow villagers. You played well. That tie was beautiful.
Pity I couldn't tell you guys any more drupple wasn't a wolf before I died, but you nailed it anyway.
The actual reason is just a matter of deduction.
The last day before I died the situation was this:
You have 4 people. Three of them are wolves. Wagonlitz was going after drupple in a way that made it (in my mind) impossible for both of them to be wolves.
Therefore, the *other* two people - being you, and graf zeppelin - must be wolves.
Now Graf Zeppelin played her game beautifully, acting all innocent all the time which made it hard for me to believe, but your posts and especially your obvious reluctance to take a stance regardin graf made it very very clear to me that you were a wolf, being forced into voting a packmate by outside pressure.
Stellar job as a GM, really. Don't feel you screwed up about anything, because you didn't.
Congratulations to my fellow villagers. You played well. That tie was beautiful.
Pity I couldn't tell you guys any more drupple wasn't a wolf before I died, but you nailed it anyway.
The actual reason is just a matter of deduction.
The last day before I died the situation was this:
You have 4 people. Three of them are wolves. Wagonlitz was going after drupple in a way that made it (in my mind) impossible for both of them to be wolves.
Therefore, the *other* two people - being you, and graf zeppelin - must be wolves.
Now Graf Zeppelin played her game beautifully, acting all innocent all the time which made it hard for me to believe, but your posts and especially your obvious reluctance to take a stance regardin graf made it very very clear to me that you were a wolf, being forced into voting a packmate by outside pressure.
Also, there is no way in hell I'm going to keep these scan results to myself.
Apologies for the colors, I asked Yvanoff to not make them bright yellow because that turns completely unreadable when my email client puts it on a white background ;-)
(edit: nm, in quote boxes *this* is unreadable. I'm changing it back.)
Truly Yvanoff, you went above and beyond with these. Awesome work.
Apologies for the colors, I asked Yvanoff to not make them bright yellow because that turns completely unreadable when my email client puts it on a white background ;-)
(edit: nm, in quote boxes *this* is unreadable. I'm changing it back.)
Truly Yvanoff, you went above and beyond with these. Awesome work.
As a side note: Scanning Caillean on day one is not going to be a permanent thing. It just was more convenient with the plans for the weekend ;-)
Okay, but what was up with Jerman switching to Jerman right at deadline. If he had been just a moment earlier it would have screwed up the entire plan.
Ok, now that the game is over, I had thoughts on the whole alynkio thing that I can now say. I think what alynkio did was perfectly fine. In these situations I tend to personally apply two things to the situation:
1) Do I reasonably expect to be hunted?
2) Can I reasonably expect for this statement to significantly change the night orders?
If both of those are a yes, I usually abstain from posting whatever I was about to post, because I just tend to prefer to avoid sharing info in that time if it's something along the lines of "Ok, so I'm probably about to get hunted, but here's a bunch of info I was withholding because I didn't want the wolves to be able to react to it". From what I gleaned from the thread, alynkio may have believed he was going to be hunted, especially based on how Panzer was reacting after deadline, so I'd put it as a tentative yes, but in alynkio's shoes I wouldn't expect a significant change to night orders, since the pack would still want me dead and I wouldn't expect the seer to waste time looking into me. In this case I'd say if alynkio posted that five minutes before deadline instead of thirty minutes after there'd be no major change in the course of the game.
And while I know Panzer's question about deleting all his posts was mostly theoretical, I'd suggest discouraging that. If that became a popular thing, my response would be to start archiving the thread regularly in one way or another. I don't see that strategy leading to more interesting gameplay, but rather it'd just give players with more time or tech savvy an advantage as they could make sure they had the whole thread even if something gets deleted.
1) Do I reasonably expect to be hunted?
2) Can I reasonably expect for this statement to significantly change the night orders?
If both of those are a yes, I usually abstain from posting whatever I was about to post, because I just tend to prefer to avoid sharing info in that time if it's something along the lines of "Ok, so I'm probably about to get hunted, but here's a bunch of info I was withholding because I didn't want the wolves to be able to react to it". From what I gleaned from the thread, alynkio may have believed he was going to be hunted, especially based on how Panzer was reacting after deadline, so I'd put it as a tentative yes, but in alynkio's shoes I wouldn't expect a significant change to night orders, since the pack would still want me dead and I wouldn't expect the seer to waste time looking into me. In this case I'd say if alynkio posted that five minutes before deadline instead of thirty minutes after there'd be no major change in the course of the game.
And while I know Panzer's question about deleting all his posts was mostly theoretical, I'd suggest discouraging that. If that became a popular thing, my response would be to start archiving the thread regularly in one way or another. I don't see that strategy leading to more interesting gameplay, but rather it'd just give players with more time or tech savvy an advantage as they could make sure they had the whole thread even if something gets deleted.
While I think @Wagonlitz had a point in that it's up to the players to prevent this behavior, as a GM I'd ban players who do that from participating in my games.
Also @Arkasas you've added the winners in the list of Lite winners but didn't add me to the list of Lite GMs
I don't really care whether the discouraging comes from players or GMs or both. I just know that if it becomes a popular strategy it won't make games more interesting to me, just add the menial chore of somehow keeping track of the thread personally where it can't be deleted.
The plan was to tie you are Wagon. I was told to switch to Wagon however, since I didnt respond they switched to Wagon to tie him and Graf.
Basiclly a communication error that worked out
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Nudge nudge, wink wink, a nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!
In any case, your GMing was good, Yvanoff. happycats is right and I will cite him the next time this comes up. Who wants to GM the next Lite?
Wow, those are amazing. Especially the last one. I've never actually seen a GM write roleplay for scan results. Even the most dedicated ones don't do that usually. I want an Yvanoff GM'd big now...
Hunting Alynkio was absolutely the worst thing we could have done after he had posted that.
Basically the problem was a conflict of opinions and desires in the pack: I wanted Alynkio to out Aedan, the village to lynch Aedan, see he's a villager, and lynch Alynkio in retribution the next day. I knew Alynkio would accuse me, but I was confident I could have defended myself and had the village made the wrong choice there we would have won a Stalingrad.
Wagonlitz, meanwhile, didn't want a fake outing at all. He wanted Graf to snipe out of a TIE with Euro and leave it at that. He thought the outing was way too much risk for too little gain. But if we were to do it, he said we 100% had to hunt Alynkio because the village may believe him the next day, and better not to leave any leads.
So we ended up with the compromise of doing the outing but hunting Alynkio, which honestly sort of is the worst of both worlds. I still had to go through all the risks of a fake outing, but the next day would have been just as random as if Graf had simply sniped out of a tie. All of that was made so that we wouldn't run the risk of Alynkio talking. Once he did talk, all that hunting him would do was to confirm to the village that he was telling the truth. I still maintain that he was completely within his rights to post that after deadline, but I have to say I felt really bad and powerless not being able to at least change the hunt order to not kill him at that point. That had been my original plan anyway. Without it the outing became sort of pointless, only benefit was making it a bit less risky... Which all went up in the air anyway when Alynkio talked and died.
I think whether talking post-deadline is allowed or not doesn't matter too much, but the GM should make it clear ahead of time whether it is allowed or not. I think it's clear the wolves would not have done they play they did if they predicted alynkio would reveal that Panzer used them as a patsy before the update. This can be fixed by the GM just unambiguously going one direction or the other on it in future games, and which direction it is matters little.