(Updated) More details for Anatolia & Aegean & Armenia & Kurdistan after Cradle of Civilization

[withche.07]

Currently Anatolia feels superficial in terms of province borders and so on.

I just want you to compare real size of Anatolia to Europe (I used this: http://thetruesize.com)

There are like only 35-37 provinces for modern day Turkish lands.
Then compare it to NL + Germany + Czech + Slovakia + Half Poland + Quarter Ukraine and a bit of France and Austria and Hungary. There are like 100s provinces there.

So there should be more provinces. I am looking at Osmanlı vilayets and sanjaks (https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmanlı_vilayetleri_listesi)

I suggest:

1.
Hüdavendigar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hüdavendigâr_Vilayet
and old hüdavendigar map:
http://tarihvemedeniyet.org/2009/10/hudavendigar-vilayeti.html

there were 5 sanjaks in this.
Kütahya (already seperate in the same name)
Karahisar-ı Sahip (already seperate in the name of Hamid)
Ertuğrul (should be newly added bordering Eskişehir while taking some of Eskişehir province)
Bursa (should be newly added as eastern half of hüdavendigar)
Karesi (should be newly added as western half of hüdavendigar and there should be new anatolian beylik claims in this (Karasids/Karesioğulları)
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karesi_Beyliği
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karasids

So instead of Hüdavendigar, 3 new provinces Bursa, Karesi (Balıkesir) and Ertuğrul. Populations were high enough.

2.
Edirne:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrianople_Vilayet
and old edirne map (basically shows seperations):

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gümülcine_Sancağı#/media/File:Adrianople_Vilayet_—_Memalik-i_Mahruse-i_Shahane-ye_Mahsus_Mukemmel_ve_Mufassal_Atlas_(1907).jpg

Kırkkilise (already seperate, no problem)
Tekfurdağı/Tekirdağ (should be newly added as very eastern part of Edirne)
Gelibolu (should be newly added as very southern part of Edirne, modern day Çanakkale, or gallipoli)
Gümülçine and Dedeağaç (should be newly added, I guess they are too small to be seperate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Gümülcine
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedeağaç_Sancağı
and Edirne sanjak (normally)
So instead of huge Edirne 4 or 5 new provinces: Edirne, Gelibolu, Tekfurdağı and Gümülçine/Dedeağaç (seperate or together)

3.
Aydın:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidin_Vilayet#/media/File:CUINET(1894)_3.348_Smyrne_Vilayet.jpg
Too big again
Sarukhan Sanjak (already seperate)
Menteshe Sanjak (already seperate)
Smyrna Sanjak (should be newly added as new Smyrnia province, it was very crowded in past and still is.)
Denizli Sanjak
Aydin Sanjak

I believe Aydın and Denizli (they feel small alone) might be together getting some lands from saruhan, saruhan is already too big.
So instead of completely wrong Aydın, there would be 2 or 3 more provinces: Smyrnia (İzmir), Aydın and/or Denizli.

4.
Konya

I feel like this one is ok, some of its very small sanjaks (Bourdur and Isparta) was added to artificial Hamid, its okayish. (Afyon + Isparta + Burdur as one)

5.
Ankara Vilayet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara_Vilayet
I feel like this one is ok, too. Only Kırşehir might be added in between Kayseri, Bozok and Ankara.
So 1 more province to make others a bit smaller and realistic.

6.
Kastamonu: ok.

7.
Trabzon:

There should be Lazistan in between Trabzon itself and Guria (Batum)

8.
Halep (Aleppo)

more provinces needed between Halab, Marash, Malatya.
2 provinces should be added, Antep and Urfa, seperate.

9.
Diyarbakır:

1 Mardin province should be added. Diyarbakır is too big.

10.
Sivas:

Sivas (already added)
Amasya (already added)
Karahisar-ı Şarki
Tokad

There should be Tokad province together with Karahisar-ı Şarki. I think they are too small to be seperate.

11. Island group in very north aegean sea might be seperate:

Thasos, Limnos, Samothrace, Imbros (Gökçeada) & Tenedos (Bozcaada) as 1 province. They are big enough.

There are lots of maps (in Arabic) in these links I provided.

So this would completely delete Hüdavendigar and makes it 3. (2 new provinces) And new beylik.
Makes Edirne 3 more (or even 4) provinces bigger.
Makes Aydın 1 (or even 2) more province bigger.
This is my suggestion: remove artificial Hamid, make Afyon 1 province and Isparta-Burdur 1 province too. (1 more province)
Adds 1 more province around Ankara-Bozok.
1 more province next to Trabzon.
2 more provinces around Marash, Malatya, Halab.
1 more next to Diyarbakır
1 more next to Sivas
1 more island province at Aegean sea.

There could be lot more added from these sanjak maps.
1 more to Adana or even 1 more to Cyprus as there were 3 sanjaks in Cyprus in Ottoman times.

final link to look for maps and info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayet

Anatolia really cries for new provinces and updates dear Paradox, as you see Anatolia is already too big comparing to Europe, even making all sanjaks as provinces might work. I tried hard to make it more reasonable.
But some provinces feel really bad, like Edirne.

Note: I didnt look for southern eastern part of anatolia that much cause population was much more less.

Sorry for weak English.

My other suggestion for Anatolia:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...sultanate-of-rum-and-or-seljuk-empire.1008590

 

[chegitz guevara]

Safardic isn't even an EU4 culture as far as I know, and the closest thing would be Andalusian. Plus I don't see how any Ottoman player would want this as it would change a province that has an accepted culture to one without one

Perhaps. You know Spanish was spoken in Thessaloniki until 1944.

 

[Dieselface]

Perhaps. You know Spanish was spoken in Thessaloniki until 1944.

Yes I do. In fact, Ladino Jewish people were probably the majority until World War 2, or at least until the population exchange between Greece and Turkey.

 

[Zerodv]

Majority in the city, no way majority in the entire province.

 

[Dieselface]

Majority in the city, no way majority in the entire province.

In the surrounding rural areas it was a mix of Greeks and Bulgarians, but as far as I know most of the larger towns were thoroughly Greek, especially in western and southern Macedonia (the Greek region). Also most of the Turks of Macedonia lived in Thessaloniki, and not so much the surrounding area.

Yes I do. In fact, Ladino Jewish people were probably the majority until World War 2, or at least until the population exchange between Greece and Turkey.

They dropped to only 20% of the population after WW1

 

[Dieselface]

But I would also support splitting the Salonica province, not even for the Jewish cultural puposes, but just because as it's currently drawn it just seems too big and chunky. I would actually split it between east and west, or Salonica and Serres.

 

[Vogelwiese]

You mean like happened in the real world?

I know that it happened but the alliance ingame usually happens far earlier and is far more consistent than the historic one. Usually at a point in time where either an Alliance between these two would be unthinkable or before Austria is even a threat to even just one of them. I think AI Austria usually picking pretty bad allies (mostly HRE no other large nations) has something to do with it though.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Don't forget them Armenian highlands. They remained mostly Armenian and Kurdish until the 20th century

The 20th century would be far outside the normal timeframe of an umodified EU IV game. A bit closer would be 1896:

 

[withche.07]

I read about Thessaloniki discussion, I also think it is a good idea, we are not expecting Ottoman players to enjoy it or not but, it is quite historical reality that there was a province shifted to Jewish.

Also thanks for the map, it looks even better for eastern parts which I wasn't sure.
There is definitely Tokad and Karahisar provinces (I suggested as 1 new province) right between Amasya and Sivas and mountain wasteland.
There is also quite big Urfa province right above of Halab. (which I suggested)
There is very big Mardin province right below Diyarbekir (which I suggested)

It also contains Aintab at the north of large Halab, it doesnt look as province but big enough.

Provinces I couldn't catch:
Looks like there is also Bajaset province (inside modern day Ağrı at Turkey) and it is right above Van province, It is also quite big and it contains so called Ararat Mountain (in Armenian language) as I know pretty much holistic for Armenians. That could easily make Armenian cultured province for sure. Good catch!


There is also blueish Kozan sanjak on map right between Adana and Kayseri.
I looked into it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozan,_Adana

Sis (Kozan) had an important place in ecclesiastical history both the Armenian Apostolic Church and as a Roman Catholic titular see. It is first mentioned in Theodoret's life of St. Simeon Stylites.
In the Middle Ages, Sis was the religious center of Christian Armenians, until the Armenians moved the seat of Catholicos back to Vagharshapat (Echmiadzin), in Armenia. Lequien (II, 899) gives the names of several bishops of Sis, before and after Gregory IX.

In 1441, Sis having fallen from its high estate, the Armenian clergy proposed to remove the see, and on the refusal of the Catholicos of the day, Gregory IX, installed a rival, namely Kirakos I Virapetsi (Kirakos of Armenia) at Echmiadzin, who, as soon as Selim I had conquered Greater Armenia[citation needed], became the more widely accepted of the two by the Armenian church in the Ottoman Empire.[7]

The Catholicos of Sis (of the Holy See of Cilicia) maintained himself nevertheless, with under his jurisdiction several bishops, numerous villages and convents, and was supported in his views by the Catholic Pope up to the middle of the 19th century, when the patriarch Nerses, declaring finally for Echmiadzin, carried the government with him. In 1885, Sis tried to declare Echmiadzin schismatic, and in 1895 its clergy took it on themselves to elect a Catholicos without reference to the patriarch; but the Porte annulled the election, and only allowed it six years later upon Sis renouncing its pretensions to independence.[citation needed] That Catholicos had the right to prepare the sacred myron (oil) and to preside over a synod, but was in fact not more than a metropolitan, and regarded by many Armenians as schismatic.[7]

Looks like this is also great find, it was even city for modern Turkey until it was terminated.

Also another list of vilayets and sanjaks until 1876 from French source (Abel Pavet de Courteille):

 

[withche.07]

I also tried a bit to redraw map according to my new changes (Saruhan could be smaller)

 

[Reaux]

Split Salonika into Macedonia and Salonika. Then when the Moros event fires, Salonika's culture can change to Safardic and the religion to Jewish.

An event about migration of Sephardic Jews to Salonika after Recounqista could add some flavor. Accepting Moorish refuuges plus Jewish. Changing religion of the Salonika to Jewish (as most of the city population will be jew) and getting more devopment to province. Fits historically too.

 

[Dieselface]

The problem is that Jews never became the majority in the whole province, just the city of Thessaloniki. So it would make no sense to make them the majority unless you made the city separate from the rest of the province

 

[ConjurerDragon]

The problem is that Jews never became the majority in the whole province, just the city of Thessaloniki. So it would make no sense to make them the majority unless you made the city separate from the rest of the province

Which means that changing both culture (andalusian) and religion (jewish) of the province would be too much. But changing only one of both while giving the Ottoman Empire an incentive to accept that (e.g. a boost to development) would be fine. However such an event should still depend on Spain actually conquering Granada and banishing it’s non-christian population if it does not convert.

 

[chegitz guevara]

The problem is that Jews never became the majority in the whole province, just the city of Thessaloniki. So it would make no sense to make them the majority unless you made the city separate from the rest of the province

Hence, splitting the province in twain.

 

[withche.07]

Some flags for Beyliks I suggested to add:

as formable nation / claim
1. Karesi

2. Teke

3. Alaiye

Some more maps to clearly show some beyliks on map like Ahi, Teke, Hamit, Karesi etc. (early 14th):

1300:

Another 1300s:

1380:

early 14th:

1300-1400 comparison:

for more:
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/asmin/xanatolia10711517.html

 

[celethiel]

The problem with that "basically guaranteed alliance with France" is that it's simply an emergent property of the game mechanics: the Ottomans don't like Austria, France doesn't like Austria, they both mark Austria as a rival, and this gives them a common interest in preventing the Habsburgs from growing up into the Habsblob.

Sad thing is it's also Historical, France and the Ottomans double teamed the Austrians all the time, and allied (mostly for French Ambitions.) As for another scary alliance... Ottobans and the Russians have allied in my games before.

Yeah i get that much it's just pretty annoying that the strongest nations in the beginning of the game basically always ally each other (and usually don't lose this alliance). It's especially strange since Austria is not much of a threat in the beginning, a lot like Poland while it is by itself. I think France should probably be more neutral to Austria at first and have relations sour after the BI fires or other similar events like getting the Habsburgs on the Spanish throne or achieving PU's with Hungary and Bohemia. At the moment Ottos and PLC are probably the worst offenders when it comes to AI blobbing out of control since both of them have no larger roadblocks in the beginning. I just don't hink they should have it even easier and since this thread is about more provinces added to the Ottomans that's what i focused on.
The suggestion above your post is probably what i would go for which is basically remove free cores (and possibly make them permanent claims) for the Ottos to slow them a bit in the early game.

I don't think they should be Neutral to Austria, i think they should be actually hostile to any Emperor of the HRE, and possibly automatically rival them (the French that is.) Because that was what France did Agressively try to conquer it's neighbors and Consolidate it's power... hense how many wars started in Europe, or were Aggrovated.

This is where I remind you that at game start, Austria has an enormous force limit and a generous gold income.

Austria isn't a threat to France, but it's absolutely an obstacle (and France is a threat to Austria, or at least Austria's interests).

Yes... most absolutely, The French were a constant threat to the Holy Roman Empire, including the Habsburgs of Austria in particular. The Ottomans weren't considered a Threat to Austria it's self until they were on their borders (heck they weren't considered a threat to europe until they stood on the borders of the Holy Roman Empire and Austria), and were only a threat to Austrian Interests in... specifically Hungary.
-----------

I think that you found those maps cool, and it would be interesting to see Antolia bigger (although i don't like the Ottomans)... i think if you made Antolia bigger you'd definately have to split Turkish Culture up, though.

 

[chegitz guevara]

The MIEOU and Taxes mod has a billion new provinces in Anatolia. It's a great mod.

 

[Conqueror of Europe]

Should be, form Turan for turk nation with this

 

[Reaux]

Should be, form Turan for turk nation with this

Turan came to being a being in the late 19th century so it is not really a fit for the timeline. It fits better for the Hearts Of Iron

 

[withche.07]

Yeah I personally don't think Turan fits timeline, but Turkey tag might fit still for republican Turkish nation. Not in historical way but in logical way. It is weird to see dynasty name in a republic.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-revolutionary-ottomans-make-any-sense.833202

People were calling lands "Turkey" in even early 1800s.

Map of Turkey in Europe (17th century), published in the Rev. E. Blomfield's A Complete and Universal Dictionary, 1812

Map of Turkey in Asia published in Cooke's Geography, 1817

1877

 

[AndrejK]

Am supportive if Ottos get stuff to deal with, and Anatolia no longer a Turklish Sunni blob:

• Kozani to get Armenian culture and Coptic rel.,
• Alevis to be rerpresented as Shia (I guess Tokad and Yozgat, not sure)
• Karamanli Turks= Turkish people of Orthodox religion, could be added for flavour.
• Am in favour of event changing Thessaloniki rel. to Jewish (come on folks, ťhe Jews got 2 provinces in Ethiopia, they deserve at least one in Mediterranean)
• Mardin could become Assyrian culture and Coptic religion to represent Syrian Orthodox Church (not to be confused with greek Orthodox church of Antioch). (Assyrian culture + Nestorian religion to be extended 4 Hakkari- can be carvewd out, Urmia and possibliy Mosul, doubtful though)