(Updated) More details for Anatolia & Aegean & Armenia & Kurdistan after Cradle of Civilization

(Updated) More details for Anatolia & Aegean & Armenia & Kurdistan after Cradle of Civilization

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withche.07

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Currently Anatolia feels superficial in terms of province borders and so on.

I just want you to compare real size of Anatolia to Europe (I used this: http://thetruesize.com)

There are like only 35-37 provinces for modern day Turkish lands.
Then compare it to NL + Germany + Czech + Slovakia + Half Poland + Quarter Ukraine and a bit of France and Austria and Hungary. There are like 100s provinces there.

So there should be more provinces. I am looking at Osmanlı vilayets and sanjaks (https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmanlı_vilayetleri_listesi)

I suggest:

1.
Hüdavendigar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hüdavendigâr_Vilayet
and old hüdavendigar map:
http://tarihvemedeniyet.org/2009/10/hudavendigar-vilayeti.html

there were 5 sanjaks in this.
Kütahya (already seperate in the same name)
Karahisar-ı Sahip (already seperate in the name of Hamid)
Ertuğrul (should be newly added bordering Eskişehir while taking some of Eskişehir province)
Bursa (should be newly added as eastern half of hüdavendigar)
Karesi (should be newly added as western half of hüdavendigar and there should be new anatolian beylik claims in this (Karasids/Karesioğulları)
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karesi_Beyliği
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karasids

So instead of Hüdavendigar, 3 new provinces Bursa, Karesi (Balıkesir) and Ertuğrul. Populations were high enough.

2.
Edirne:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrianople_Vilayet
and old edirne map (basically shows seperations):

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gümülcine_Sancağı#/media/File:Adrianople_Vilayet_—_Memalik-i_Mahruse-i_Shahane-ye_Mahsus_Mukemmel_ve_Mufassal_Atlas_(1907).jpg

Kırkkilise (already seperate, no problem)
Tekfurdağı/Tekirdağ (should be newly added as very eastern part of Edirne)
Gelibolu (should be newly added as very southern part of Edirne, modern day Çanakkale, or gallipoli)
Gümülçine and Dedeağaç (should be newly added, I guess they are too small to be seperate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Gümülcine
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedeağaç_Sancağı
and Edirne sanjak (normally)
So instead of huge Edirne 4 or 5 new provinces: Edirne, Gelibolu, Tekfurdağı and Gümülçine/Dedeağaç (seperate or together)

3.
Aydın:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidin_Vilayet#/media/File:CUINET(1894)_3.348_Smyrne_Vilayet.jpg
Too big again
Sarukhan Sanjak (already seperate)
Menteshe Sanjak (already seperate)
Smyrna Sanjak (should be newly added as new Smyrnia province, it was very crowded in past and still is.)
Denizli Sanjak
Aydin Sanjak

I believe Aydın and Denizli (they feel small alone) might be together getting some lands from saruhan, saruhan is already too big.
So instead of completely wrong Aydın, there would be 2 or 3 more provinces: Smyrnia (İzmir), Aydın and/or Denizli.

4.
Konya

I feel like this one is ok, some of its very small sanjaks (Bourdur and Isparta) was added to artificial Hamid, its okayish. (Afyon + Isparta + Burdur as one)

5.
Ankara Vilayet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara_Vilayet
I feel like this one is ok, too. Only Kırşehir might be added in between Kayseri, Bozok and Ankara.
So 1 more province to make others a bit smaller and realistic.

6.
Kastamonu: ok.

7.
Trabzon:

There should be Lazistan in between Trabzon itself and Guria (Batum)

8.
Halep (Aleppo)

more provinces needed between Halab, Marash, Malatya.
2 provinces should be added, Antep and Urfa, seperate.

9.
Diyarbakır:

1 Mardin province should be added. Diyarbakır is too big.

10.
Sivas:

Sivas (already added)
Amasya (already added)
Karahisar-ı Şarki
Tokad

There should be Tokad province together with Karahisar-ı Şarki. I think they are too small to be seperate.

11. Island group in very north aegean sea might be seperate:

Thasos, Limnos, Samothrace, Imbros (Gökçeada) & Tenedos (Bozcaada) as 1 province. They are big enough.

There are lots of maps (in Arabic) in these links I provided.

So this would completely delete Hüdavendigar and makes it 3. (2 new provinces) And new beylik.
Makes Edirne 3 more (or even 4) provinces bigger.
Makes Aydın 1 (or even 2) more province bigger.
This is my suggestion: remove artificial Hamid, make Afyon 1 province and Isparta-Burdur 1 province too. (1 more province)
Adds 1 more province around Ankara-Bozok.
1 more province next to Trabzon.
2 more provinces around Marash, Malatya, Halab.
1 more next to Diyarbakır
1 more next to Sivas
1 more island province at Aegean sea.

There could be lot more added from these sanjak maps.
1 more to Adana or even 1 more to Cyprus as there were 3 sanjaks in Cyprus in Ottoman times.

final link to look for maps and info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayet

Anatolia really cries for new provinces and updates dear Paradox, as you see Anatolia is already too big comparing to Europe, even making all sanjaks as provinces might work. I tried hard to make it more reasonable.
But some provinces feel really bad, like Edirne.

Note: I didnt look for southern eastern part of anatolia that much cause population was much more less.



Sorry for weak English.

My other suggestion for Anatolia:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...sultanate-of-rum-and-or-seljuk-empire.1008590
 
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Lehnaru

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Good work! This would make the Ottos much harder to fight and my Byzzie games even more difficult :D
 
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Vogelwiese

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Mmmh while i don't mind the addition of more historical accuracy this will probably make the Ottomans even more powerful. They already usually blob all over Europe if it's not the PLC doing the blobbing. Maybe the Ottomans not starting with cores over Anatolia could be a cure for that could be replaced with an event or mission for cheaper coring maybe.
A united Austria-Hungary should be a little weaker than the Ottos which i think is already well reflecte in Ottoman modifiers and unit pips.

So improving the Ottos is okay but not without some more power checks like that basically guaranteed Alliance with France in the early years.
 

Trin Tragula

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Thanks for taking the time to post this. I would not rule out map changes in this region in the future. However if/when that happens we will likely be looking at older divisions than vilayet maps (as those are divisions from the mid 19th century). Though in many cases I expect the sanjaks that are part of them remained similar.

That said I welcome a discussion about Anatolian geography. We haven't had that in a long while and if we look at the region again we'll be sure to revisit threads like these :)
 
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TheWalttu

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I hope that we'll see some changes in the provinces of Bulgaria, Greece, Anatolia and Egypt.
The Anatolian provinces are hideous, and could use a revamp. Most of the region was however sparsely populated, so the overall amount of development should be left untouched.

I am not an expert on the cultural situation of Anatolia, but is there an possibility to split Turkish culture somehow? I have understood that there was a cultural divide between the settled turks and the nomadic ones.
 
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withche.07

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Thank you for interest! :) Yeah maps are quite new, but most of them were very similar. These sanjaks nearly stayed same till even modern day Turkey cause inside Anatolia was never truly invaded & conquered. There may be lot to add to even current beyliks with province changes. It would make them lot like daimyos in Japan, and gameplay can be bit harder but fun to achieve while exploding Ottomans piece by piece into new beyliks. So I generally want better gameplay in the name of beyliks. Adding more beylik claims will also give Ottomans a pain:
Some more beylik additions after Karesi (modern day Balıkesir):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_beyliks


+
Ahis claim in Ankara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahis
This was very special, as it says in wiki: However, Ahi Beylik, unlike the others, was not ruled by a dynasty. It was a religious and commercial fraternity which can be described as a republic not much different from the mercantile republics of the medieval Europe.
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahilik
It was both economic and religious organization. It was like economic guild of Turks. Could be nice addition.

+
Teke (claim in Teke province, or antalya)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beylik_of_Teke
It stays same nearly all the time till this day modern Antalya (which I live)
+
Alaiye (vassal to Karamans was alive in 1444 (for divided İçel province, Alaiye/Alanya city.) (This might stay out, no huge deal)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaiye
+
Canik (next to Candar with adding more sanjaks) They were alive at the start of game year. They should be added.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyliks_of_Canik
+
Beylik of Erzincan (claim in Erzincan)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beylik_of_Erzincan
+
Hamidid claim for newly added Isparta-Eğirdir-Burdur (as 1) province.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidids
"Their territory became the Ottoman Sanjak of Hamid, roughly corresponding to the present-day Isparta Province."
+
Ladik claim for newly added Denizli province
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beylik_of_Lâdik
+
Sahib Ataids claim (for newly added Afyonkarahisar province, right above Isparta-Eğirdir-Burdur)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahib_Ataids
+
just outside of anatolia
Beylik of Dobruja (lived until 1417)
These were special cause they were Christian Turks.

It goes more like Eshrefids, Kadi Burhan al-Din and Pervâneoğlu.

But my suggestions are generally good enough for more details.
Especially Canik, Hamid, Erzincan claims etc.
 
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In the first map you claim to compare the size of "Anatolia" to that of central Europe. However you superimposed the borders of nowadays Turkey on that map, not of Anatolia.

Anatolia does not include the european part of nowadays Turkey and in the timeframe of EU IV did not include the eastern part of nowadays Turkey. That was back then still called the Armenian Highlands.

Furthermore mere size alone should never equal more provinces. If you overlay say Greenland over Turkey you will find that Greenland has three times the landmass of nowadays Turkey...

http://thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~...MTk(MTgxMzY4MzI~!GL*NTY5OTMxNg.MjY5ODU2NDc)MQ

 
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withche.07

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I tried to mean, anatolia is supposed to have less provinces from Europe. But not this less. It is like less than 1/3 or 1/4 or even maybe 1/5 (I didn't count)
There were active crowded sanjaks like Smyrna, Edirne's parts (well this is not anatolia, but in game it is), Bursa, Mardin, Antep, Karahisar(Afyon) and so on could easily be turned into provinces.

According to EU4 area system, all these are part of Anatolia region.
http://www.eu4wiki.com/European_regions#Anatolia

Only exception is Diyarbakır, Mush, Van it belongs to Asian North Kurdistan region in game.
But it is still called as Anatolia.
http://www.eu4wiki.com/Asian_regions
 
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Dividing Anatolia this much could create over-development in Ottomans. But lowering all of the other provinces development except Konstantinopolis can counter that. And it even fits history wise as Ottoman Royalty didn't really care much for Anatolia
 
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Jordedude1234

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Mmmh while i don't mind the addition of more historical accuracy this will probably make the Ottomans even more powerful. They already usually blob all over Europe if it's not the PLC doing the blobbing. Maybe the Ottomans not starting with cores over Anatolia could be a cure for that could be replaced with an event or mission for cheaper coring maybe.
A united Austria-Hungary should be a little weaker than the Ottos which i think is already well reflecte in Ottoman modifiers and unit pips.

So improving the Ottos is okay but not without some more power checks like that basically guaranteed Alliance with France in the early years.
Perhaps making Anatolia permanent claims instead of cores might fix this.
 

grommile

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So improving the Ottos is okay but not without some more power checks like that basically guaranteed Alliance with France in the early years.
The problem with that "basically guaranteed alliance with France" is that it's simply an emergent property of the game mechanics: the Ottomans don't like Austria, France doesn't like Austria, they both mark Austria as a rival, and this gives them a common interest in preventing the Habsburgs from growing up into the Habsblob.
 

Vogelwiese

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The problem with that "basically guaranteed alliance with France" is that it's simply an emergent property of the game mechanics: the Ottomans don't like Austria, France doesn't like Austria, they both mark Austria as a rival, and this gives them a common interest in preventing the Habsburgs from growing up into the Habsblob.
Yeah i get that much it's just pretty annoying that the strongest nations in the beginning of the game basically always ally each other (and usually don't lose this alliance). It's especially strange since Austria is not much of a threat in the beginning, a lot like Poland while it is by itself. I think France should probably be more neutral to Austria at first and have relations sour after the BI fires or other similar events like getting the Habsburgs on the Spanish throne or achieving PU's with Hungary and Bohemia. At the moment Ottos and PLC are probably the worst offenders when it comes to AI blobbing out of control since both of them have no larger roadblocks in the beginning. I just don't hink they should have it even easier and since this thread is about more provinces added to the Ottomans that's what i focused on.
The suggestion above your post is probably what i would go for which is basically remove free cores (and possibly make them permanent claims) for the Ottos to slow them a bit in the early game.
 

grommile

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This is where I remind you that at game start, Austria has an enormous force limit and a generous gold income.

Austria isn't a threat to France, but it's absolutely an obstacle (and France is a threat to Austria, or at least Austria's interests).