• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

withche.07

Lt. General
133 Badges
Oct 1, 2014
1.350
1.490
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Island Bound
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Empire of Sin
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Hearts of Iron 4: Arms Against Tyranny
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
I know this is out of scope but I have spent some time for possibilities:

sibir.png

sibi2.png khanty.png khanty2mans.png
siberi8.png

SİBER.png


A. Possible rich principalities (maybe better version of siberian clans):
http://www.folklore.ee/~aado/rahvad/pelymingl.htm
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Khanty
Pelm, Khanty, Konda, Mansi

The Khanty and the Mansi were formerly divided into tribes consisting of local territorial groupings. Each individual, regardless of tribe, belonged to one of two phratries and was expected to marry outside his phratry. A phratry consisted of several clans, each with a name or names of an ancestor or ancestor hero, a sign or brand to identify clan property, internal organization, an ancestor cult, and a sacred site.
Beginning in the 15th c., Muscovite imperial control reached their homeland, and the Mansi came under Russian influence.


Some Khanty princedoms were partially included in the Siberia Khanate from the 1440s–1570s.
In the 11th century, Yugra was actually a term for numerous tribes, each having its own centre and its own chief. Every tribe had two exogamic phratries, termed mon't'and por, and all members were considered to be blood relatives. This structure was later replaced with clans, where each clan leader (knyazets) negotiated with the Russian realm. They also participated in Russian campaigns, and received the right to collect yasaq (tribute) from two Khanty volosts (districts) respectively. When this structure was no longer needed, Russia deprived them of their privileges.


The Mansi suffered from their commercial and political contacts with the Russians. The Russians brought tools, firearms and various trade goods, including alcohol, which has plagued these people ever since. They also brought with them diseases that these peoples had never been exposed to before. Alcohol and diseases led to a rapid decline of the Mansi population, and the population did not stabilise again until well into the 18th c.
During the 16th and 17th c., the tsars practised a policy of indirect rule from Moscow. Forts were established for the purpose of collecting the fur tax, while actual administration was left in the hands of local rulers.
Russian Orthodox missionaries were also active among the Mansi, and made thousands of converts. Moscow authorised the granting of citisenship to converts, which led to many forced baptisms by local rulers who afterwards used their native serfs to increase fur trapping. The conversions were rather superficial, though, Christianity typically mingled with the traditional faith of the Mansi.


Koda Principality
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Koda+Principality
a territorial-tribal union of the Khanty in Western Siberia, along the lower course of the Ob. It was known to the Russians in the 15th century as part of the Ugrian land. In 1484 the Koda Principality recognized its vassalage to the Russian state and agreed to pay tribute in money collected from its subject population. The Koda “princes,” the Alychevs (or Alachevs),furthered the Russian colonization of Siberia. In the 17th century, the autonomy of the Koda Principality was abolished and it was put on the same footing as the other districts in the Ugrian land.

The principality of Pelym was located in the basin of the Konda river and stretched from the mouth of the Sosva near Tavda up to Tabary. The number of population could be inferred from a report from 1599 which states that the region was inhabited by 555 tax-paying citizens (Bahrushin 1955,2: 144). The stronghold of the Pelym princes was also a significant religious centre; a sacred Siberian larch grew in its surroundings and even in the 18th century people used to hang the skins of sacrificed horses on its branches. Near the sacred tree was a worship storehouse with five idols of human figure, and smaller storehouses with high pillars and human-faced peaks around it for storing sacrificial instruments. The bones of sacrificial animals were stored in a separate building (Novitski: 81). Konda formed the largest part of Pelym principality, according to the tax registers from 1628/29 it was inhabited by 257 tax-paying Mansi. The treasures of Agai, the Prince of Konda who was imprisoned by the Russians in 1594 gives us a good picture of the wealth of the Ob-Ugrian nobles of this period. Namely, the Russians confiscated two silver crowns, a silver spoon, a silver beaker, a silver spiral bracelet, "precious drapery" and 426 sable, 13 fox, 61 beaver and 1.000 squirrel skins from Agai (Bahrushin 1955,2: 146). The third part of the Pelym principality was the region of Tabary, which inhabited 102 adults in 1628/29. Preceding the coming of the Russians the Mansi of this region were farmers and according to the tradition Yermak collected tribute in form of grain (Bahrushin 1955,2: 147).

B. Kets
https://web.archive.org/web/20061110184018/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Keti
Many ethnologists consider the Kets to be descendants of the original inhabitants of Siberia, which explains the unique structure of their language and their "non-Asian" pfysical features. These ancestors may have been descendants of South Siberian Caucasians who merged with ancient Mongols. As a result of migration smaller groups settled in the northern region by the Yenisey.
Living in west Siberia, the Kets came into contact with Russians at the beginning of the 17th c. The Ket sub-groups that existed at that time have been - with the exception of the northernmost one - assimilated by the Russians, Evenki and Khakass. Their religion also changed, becoming a conglomeration of Christianity and the indigenous tribal faith.


C. Selkups
https://web.archive.org/web/20061108172630/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Selkhup
The Selkups are a Samoyedic people (related to Nenets, Enets and Nganasans), and it is believed that they split away from the Finno-Ugrian groups around 3000 B.C. and migrated east, where they mixed with Turkish-Altaic peoples around 200 B.C.

D. Yakuts (Sakha)
https://web.archive.org/web/20061018233610/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Yakutian

The Yakuts are most likely descended from a mixture of peoples from the area of Lake Baykal, Turkish tribes from the steppe and Altay mountains, and indigenous peoples of Siberia, particularly the Evens and Evenks.
When ethnic Russians first arrived in the region of Yakutiya in the 1620s, the Yakuts were living along the Lena and other rivers, functioning in a semi-nomadic, subsistence economy. They were organised in roughly 80 feudal-like patriarchal clans, but a broader sense of ethnic identity was already developing.
Russia annexed Yakutiya in the 1620s, and immediately imposed the fur tax. Soldiers and merchants poured into the area in order for the Russians to take control over Yakutiya and the numerous Yakuts. The Yakuts answered with several uprisings between 1634 and 1642, but the revolts were all crushed. The fighting, together with a variety of European diseased brought by the Russians, led to a decrease in the Yakut population. Many also tried to escape the Russians by migrating further east.
But during the 18th c., the Russians annexed more and more territories to the east - Kamchatka, the Chukchi peninsula, the Aleut islands, and Alaska. Yakutiya became a thoroughfare, and more and more Russians settled in the area. Other major events that changed the life in Yakutia, were the completion of the mailroute in 1773, construction of convict camps, discovery of gold in Yakutiya in 1846, construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway in the 1880s and -90s, and the development of commercial shipping on the Lena river. These developments contributed to the commercialisation of the region, and brought in "hordes" of Russian settlers.


E. Yukaghirs around Kolyma
https://web.archive.org/web/20061110184737/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Yukagiri
The Yukagirs are one of the smallest identifiable ethnic groups still functioning in Russia.
Historically, the Yukagir economy was based primarily on nomadic hunting and fishing, with a few Tundra Yukagirs tending reindeer herds. Their matrilineal clan loyalties were very powerful, and the Yukagirs did not have a sense of common ethnic identity.
Ethnic Russian commercial traders, fur trappers and hunters established permanent contact with the Yukagirs in the mid-17th c. With them they brought useful tools and weapons that the Yukagirs also learned to use, but they also brought alcohol and a wave of epidemic diseases that led to a rapid decline in the Yukagir population.
Russian Orthodox missionaries were also active among the Yukagirs, and made thousands of converts. Moscow authorised the granting of citisenship to converts, which led to many forced baptisms by local rulers who afterwards used the Yukagirs as serfs to increase fur trapping. The conversions were rather superficial, though, Christianity typically mingled with the traditional shamanistic faith of the Yukagirs.
The 13 tribes that once constituted the Yukaghir group are: Vadul-Alais, Odul, Chuvan, Anaoul, Lavren, Olyuben, Omok, Penjin, Khodynts, Khoromoy, Shoromboy, Yandin, and Yandyr.
The surviving three tribes are the Odul of Nelemnoe, the Vadul of Andryushkino and the Chuvan of the Anadyr river area. Of the extinct groups, the most important were the Khodynts, the Anaoul (both of the Anadyr River area), and the Omok (north of the Chuvan). Sometimes the Chuvan are considered a separate tribe. The Chuvantsy language has been extinct since the early 20th century.


F. Udegey
https://web.archive.org/web/2006111...pi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Udegeytsi
The Udegey are closely related to the Ulch, Nanay, Orok and Oroch, all of whom consider themselves to be part of the Nani group. Their languages are mutually intelligible.
The Udegey enjoyed realtive freedom from Russian cultural and political pressure until the 19th c. They were nomadic hunters, organised into powerful clans.
In the 19th c., then, the Udegey were caught between Chinese and Russian expansion. From both sides, there were hard pressures to assimilate.


G. Nanay around Amur
https://web.archive.org/web/20061110184243/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Nanay
The Nanay are closely related to the Ulch, the Oroks and the Oroch, who all consider themselves to be part of the larger Nani group.

H. Itelmens
https://web.archive.org/web/20061210112812/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Itelmeni
When the Russians came to Kamchatka by the end of the 17th c., the Itelmen numbered about 12-13.000 people. The population declined rather rapidly due to many armed conflicts with the Cossacks over the despised fur tax, epidemics, tribal hostilities, hunger and the spread of alcoholism. Another factor leading to decline in the registered Itelmen population were intermarriages with ethnic Russians. The Itelmen population was estimated at less than 3,000 in 1781.
Violent rebellions in the first half of the 18th c. were easily suppressed as the Itelmen were scattered, had no tribal government and had not developed a strong internal organization.


I. Nivkh
https://web.archive.org/web/20061108172011/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Nivkhi
The Nivkh are a Tungus-Mandchurian people, related to two other Sakhalin peoples, the Ainu and the Goldi. The history of Sakhalin before Russian occupation is full of wars between these peoples, especially between the Nivkh and the Ainu.
The first contact between the Russians and the Nivkh occurred in 1645, when a Russian expedition led by Cossack V.D. Poyarkov camped in a Nivkh settlement at the mouth of the Amur river. In 1850, the Russian government annexed the Amur Delta, including some Nivkh territory.


J. Koryaks
https://web.archive.org/web/20061108172324/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Koryak
The Koryaks' ancestors were a people that 2000 years ago lived on the coast of the Sea of Okhotsk, hunting sea mammals. They gradually migrated to the Kamchatka peninsula. Reindeer-herding developed gradually among groups of Koryaks from the 11th to the 16th c.
Ethnic Russians first encountered the Koryaks in 1642, when the Cossack Ivan Yerastov met up with Kamen herders. In the 1640s, the Russians built two forts on the Kamchatka among the Chukchi. Commercial traders, fur trappers and hunters used these forts as a base and established permanent contact with the Koryaks.
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
SUMMARY.
1. If far northern parts of Siberia could be un-wasteland-ed, there could be more Samoyedic tags, and more cultures:
Dolgans and Enets at Taymyr
The Dolgans are a people of Tungusic origins, who were partly assimilated by the Yakuts. They are closely related also with Evenk, and in fact, the four sub-groups of Dolgans existing today are seen by some as descendants of four Evenki clan groups.
The name Dolgan became known outside the tribe itself only as late as the nineteenth century. The word derives from dolghan or dulghan, meaning "people living on the middle reaches of the river." Some ethnologists believe the word comes from the term for wood (toa ) or toakihilär, meaning people of the wood. Although originally a nomadic people preoccupied mostly by reindeer hunting and fishing, the advent of the Russians in the seventeenth century led to the near destruction of the Dolgans' traditional economy and way of life. The Taymyr, or Dolgan-Nenets National Territory, was proclaimed in 1930. The next year old tribal councils were liquidated, the process of collectivization initiated. Taymyr's economy in the early twenty-first century depends on mining, fishing, and dairy and fur farming, as well as some reindeer breeding and trapping.

The Samoyedic people who remained in Europe, came under Russian control around 1200 A.D., but those who had settled further east did not have much contact with the Russians until the 14th c. By the early 17th c., all of the Samoyedic peoples were under Russian control. The Enets have traditionally been a nomadic people, wandering on the tundras between the left bank of the Yenisey river and the Pyasina river in the Western taymyr peninsula.
The traditional economy of the Enets and other Samoyedic peoples was mainly based on reindeer herding and breeding, fishing, and sea mammal hunting. Their society was carefully organised into well-defined clans, each with their own grazing, hunting and fishing lands, as well as nomadic routes.
During the 16th and 17th c., the central government under the tsars ruled these peoples indirectly from Moscow. They established forts, from which they collected the despised fur tax, but left the actual administration to local rulers. Anyone who converted to Christianity was offered citizenship.
The indigenous peoples suffered from their commercial and political contacts with the Russians. The Russians brought tools, firearms and various trade goods, including alcohol, which has plagued these people ever since. They also brought with them diseases that these peoples had never been exposed to before. Together, these factors caused a rapid decrease in the Enets population.


2. I believe Khanty (Ostyak) and Mansi tags are necessary to add, those provinces shouldn't be owned by Uzbek directly. There are many information about them in books. (Some of them were Islamicized)
prince.GIF


3. Yakuts tag is necessary, they were probably the most resisting of all Siberian nations.

4. Tags around Manchu varies, I don't know much to do there but just up north its possible to add more clans. Maybe even Eskimo tag.

5. Book I used:
https://www.amazon.com/History-Peoples-Siberia-Russias-1581-1990/dp/0521477719
A History of the Peoples of Siberia: Russia's North Asian Colony 1581-1990

6. New religions are possibility
https://www.encyclopedia.com/enviro...ranscripts-and-maps/khanty-and-mansi-religion

7. Other interesting tags I couldn't place on map:
Shors at Kemerovo
The Shor ethnic group results from a mix of tribes of Samoyedic, Ket and turkified Ugrian peoples who were living in south-central Siberia.
Sustained contact with the Russians began in the 17th c., when a large influx of Russian settlers started. The Shors had by then been known among neighboring peoples as the "Blacksmith Tatars", because they used to supply the others (Oyrots, Kyrgyz and Teleuts) with finished iron products. They were unable to compete with the Russians, though, and most of them turned to hunting fur-bearing animals for a living. They had to pay a fur tax to the Russians, and anti-Russian sentiments grew strong. Russian missionaries worked hard to convert the Shors to Christianity, but what emerged was an ecclectic fusion of folk beliefs and chrisian doctrine.
Developments after the Bolshevik revolution of 1917 had a devastating effect on Shor ethnicity. The Soviet government wanted to exploit the rich iron ore and coal deposits

Ulch at Khabarovsk
The Ulch are closely related to the Udegey, Nanay, Orok and Oroch, all of whom consider themselves to be part of the Nani group. Their languages are mutually intelligible.
The Ulch are descended from a group of Tungus tribes that came from China, and from the Jurchens, ancestors of the 16th c. Manchus.
The Ulch are a relatively settled people, occasionally shifting locations between seasons. Tribal loyalties were traditionally relatively weak, and Ulch also often intermarried with neighboring Negidals, Nanay, Oroks and Ainu.
Russia annexed the Amur delta in 1850 and established a settlement at Nikolayevsk-na-Amur.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Maybe even Eskimo tag.
The Eskimo are already represented in the game as the Inuit. The term Eskimo was actually derived from what the Algonquins called the people up in the north. Inuit is the term that these people call themselves.

I would definitely love to see a Yakutia tag, the Yakuts definitely deserve a tag.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
At side with new tags Siberia really need a map rework with more provices. Even for a low population density region like this, the current provinces are exagerated big and give few options for strategic army movement.

Would love some regional work about Siberia + Central Asia. Since most of the sources are on Russian, Chinese or Arabic writing is hard use that info. :(
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
At side with new tags Siberia really need a map rework with more provices. Even for a low population density region like this, the current provinces are exagerated big and give few options for strategic army movement.
But does it make much difference if you as a main player in a region, Russia, will simply Siberian frontier them? What will those tags and provinces bring?
And what about Mangazeya?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
But does it make much difference if you as a main player in a region, Russia, will simply Siberian frontier them? What will those tags and provinces bring?
And what about Mangazeya?

- More historical routes of expansion, mainly through rivers, with barriers and shock points instead of the four lines of roundy provinces.
- Space for native siberians to maneuver againts Russians. This is very important since human player's native can exploit AI behivor to win over a superior AI's by avoiding direct confrontation.
- Stronger native coalitions.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
- More historical routes of expansion, mainly through rivers, with barriers and shock points instead of the four lines of roundy provinces.
- Space for native siberians to maneuver againts Russians. This is very important since human player's native can exploit AI behivor to win over a superior AI's by avoiding direct confrontation.
- Stronger native coalitions
That would require reworking the way Russian expansion there works as well.

Historically, it weren't thousands of Russian armies and streltsy walking all the way from Moscow to Siberia, but locally operating Cossack Hosts. Russian expiditions and expanstions were mostly carried by their local Cossack Hosts. Yermak, the one who was behind the conquest of Siberia, was a Cossack himself and with the expansion multiple Cossack Hosts appeared, with the furthest one being Amur Cossacks near Amur river. Another example - of city known as Khabarovsk, founded by Khabarov, who was essentially a continuation of expansion of local cossack hosts and after whom Amur Cossack Host essentially started it's existance.

Right now it is fully ignored. The player can't have Cossack Hosts there as vassals, they won't be really useful, they are limited to steppe only and you can just simply walk an army out of Moscow to steamroll any native. The issue is also important when we consider such Cossack Hosts as an important buffer between Russia and the Steppe Hordes (for example, Yaik Cossacks were exactly that).

But another issue is about taking the provinces. Right now there are concerns about taking Siberia as it is not a really profitable place while hugely increasing corruption for the state. Adding some Cossack Hosts there as a strategy of expansion, as well as them occupying some states and taking away corruption hit for Tsars, could be an improvement in this way - kind of like having CNs there, but for Russia. But you still add more provinces and at best addition of such Hosts would probably deny new states and provinces from making things worse in this direction...

Naturally, if warfare is managed to be reduced to warfare with Cossack Hosts Siberian local states would receive a trade - no more automatically destroying you Russian doomstacks while you get aggressive and probably less developed than "mainland Russia" neighbors denying you easy westernization by migrating sheneganians. But the wars would become way more manageable and unless Russia would conciously send their doomstacks in some Siberian wasteland, they would face a fair challenge... or at least being only believably underhanded, not steamrolled by Russia (and/or human player, but this one is a thing that is likely to happen most times so it is fine). That would justify and make sense for adding more to Siberia.

I mean, all mechanics are there and the only question is to do some immersion there. If(!) there is a Horde rework, it could use the chance to fix the map from Ruthenia to Amur, making Ruthenia and Steppes, where Cossacks and Hordes roamed, way better while addressing how Hordes work, fixing few issues for Cossacks and adding historical content while detailing map and bringing life to the Siberian lands. I definitely believe that commiting warfare and political expansion by using controlled marches - Cossack Hosts - would be wonderful and bring more depth to Russia gameplay, perhaps replacing some common tools/bonuses with this. In XIX century Cossacks had wars in Caucasus and Central Asia, so it is definite that it could be used extansively outside of Siberia as well. If you make these marches work as unique controlled proxies, kind of limited early client states specific to East Slavic group, it could be a great thing. Subjects would also reduce number of land you hold, addressing issues of not willing to go to Siberia to take too many "worthless" provinces.

And still, there is still a question of Mangazeya and ability of UK or others to establish colonies in the Siberian Arctic Ocean coast if they manage to expand there.

Overall, I agree with expanding Siberia, but it needs not only adding local tags and provinces, but also a revisit on how expansion in Siberia works to make it worth it. Since part of local nations was nomadic, it could be a part of overall revisit of Hordes... or a free patch, I suppose.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
That would require reworking the way Russian expansion there works as well.

Historically, it weren't thousands of Russian armies and streltsy walking all the way from Moscow to Siberia, but locally operating Cossack Hosts. Russian expiditions and expanstions were mostly carried by their local Cossack Hosts. Yermak, the one who was behind the conquest of Siberia, was a Cossack himself and with the expansion multiple Cossack Hosts appeared, with the furthest one being Amur Cossacks near Amur river. Another example - of city known as Khabarovsk, founded by Khabarov, who was essentially a continuation of expansion of local cossack hosts and after whom Amur Cossack Host essentially started it's existance.

Right now it is fully ignored. The player can't have Cossack Hosts there as vassals, they won't be really useful, they are limited to steppe only and you can just simply walk an army out of Moscow to steamroll any native. The issue is also important when we consider such Cossack Hosts as an important buffer between Russia and the Steppe Hordes (for example, Yaik Cossacks were exactly that).

But another issue is about taking the provinces. Right now there are concerns about taking Siberia as it is not a really profitable place while hugely increasing corruption for the state. Adding some Cossack Hosts there as a strategy of expansion, as well as them occupying some states and taking away corruption hit for Tsars, could be an improvement in this way - kind of like having CNs there, but for Russia. But you still add more provinces and at best addition of such Hosts would probably deny new states and provinces from making things worse in this direction...

Naturally, if warfare is managed to be reduced to warfare with Cossack Hosts Siberian local states would receive a trade - no more automatically destroying you Russian doomstacks while you get aggressive and probably less developed than "mainland Russia" neighbors denying you easy westernization by migrating sheneganians. But the wars would become way more manageable and unless Russia would conciously send their doomstacks in some Siberian wasteland, they would face a fair challenge... or at least being only believably underhanded, not steamrolled by Russia (and/or human player, but this one is a thing that is likely to happen most times so it is fine). That would justify and make sense for adding more to Siberia.

I mean, all mechanics are there and the only question is to do some immersion there. If(!) there is a Horde rework, it could use the chance to fix the map from Ruthenia to Amur, making Ruthenia and Steppes, where Cossacks and Hordes roamed, way better while addressing how Hordes work, fixing few issues for Cossacks and adding historical content while detailing map and bringing life to the Siberian lands. I definitely believe that commiting warfare and political expansion by using controlled marches - Cossack Hosts - would be wonderful and bring more depth to Russia gameplay, perhaps replacing some common tools/bonuses with this. In XIX century Cossacks had wars in Caucasus and Central Asia, so it is definite that it could be used extansively outside of Siberia as well. If you make these marches work as unique controlled proxies, kind of limited early client states specific to East Slavic group, it could be a great thing. Subjects would also reduce number of land you hold, addressing issues of not willing to go to Siberia to take too many "worthless" provinces.

And still, there is still a question of Mangazeya and ability of UK or others to establish colonies in the Siberian Arctic Ocean coast if they manage to expand there.

Overall, I agree with expanding Siberia, but it needs not only adding local tags and provinces, but also a revisit on how expansion in Siberia works to make it worth it. Since part of local nations was nomadic, it could be a part of overall revisit of Hordes... or a free patch, I suppose.

Agree, pretty illustrative.

I think a change of how unique Russian colonization mechanic works can be part of a whole colonization mechanic change, at side with other unique colonization styles (for Spain, Portugal, France, etc.) Since there is already a lot of complaint about how CN are less valuable thet TC.
 
They should also add the Evenks as a culture, considering that an entire culture group is named after them. The Nanai and the Nivkh are currently represented as the Wild Jurchens aka Yeren. They are currently represented as Manchus, even though Manchus ≠ Jurchens. Manchus were only the Jurchens that were unified by Nurhaci. The descendents of the WiId Jurchens never viewed themselves as Manchu but as their own ethnic identities. If Paradox were to give the Yeren area their real cultures, they should also split up the Yeren tag and remove Manchu culture from that area.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
I would definitely love to see a Yakutia tag, the Yakuts definitely deserve a tag.
I definitely agree. Current Yakut province is bit wrong by the way, rivers should be used as reference to these tags.
That would require reworking the way Russian expansion there works as well.

Historically, it weren't thousands of Russian armies and streltsy walking all the way from Moscow to Siberia, but locally operating Cossack Hosts. Russian expiditions and expanstions were mostly carried by their local Cossack Hosts. Yermak, the one who was behind the conquest of Siberia, was a Cossack himself and with the expansion multiple Cossack Hosts appeared, with the furthest one being Amur Cossacks near Amur river. Another example - of city known as Khabarovsk, founded by Khabarov, who was essentially a continuation of expansion of local cossack hosts and after whom Amur Cossack Host essentially started it's existance.

Right now it is fully ignored. The player can't have Cossack Hosts there as vassals, they won't be really useful, they are limited to steppe only and you can just simply walk an army out of Moscow to steamroll any native. The issue is also important when we consider such Cossack Hosts as an important buffer between Russia and the Steppe Hordes (for example, Yaik Cossacks were exactly that).

But another issue is about taking the provinces. Right now there are concerns about taking Siberia as it is not a really profitable place while hugely increasing corruption for the state. Adding some Cossack Hosts there as a strategy of expansion, as well as them occupying some states and taking away corruption hit for Tsars, could be an improvement in this way - kind of like having CNs there, but for Russia. But you still add more provinces and at best addition of such Hosts would probably deny new states and provinces from making things worse in this direction...

Naturally, if warfare is managed to be reduced to warfare with Cossack Hosts Siberian local states would receive a trade - no more automatically destroying you Russian doomstacks while you get aggressive and probably less developed than "mainland Russia" neighbors denying you easy westernization by migrating sheneganians. But the wars would become way more manageable and unless Russia would conciously send their doomstacks in some Siberian wasteland, they would face a fair challenge... or at least being only believably underhanded, not steamrolled by Russia (and/or human player, but this one is a thing that is likely to happen most times so it is fine). That would justify and make sense for adding more to Siberia.

I mean, all mechanics are there and the only question is to do some immersion there. If(!) there is a Horde rework, it could use the chance to fix the map from Ruthenia to Amur, making Ruthenia and Steppes, where Cossacks and Hordes roamed, way better while addressing how Hordes work, fixing few issues for Cossacks and adding historical content while detailing map and bringing life to the Siberian lands. I definitely believe that commiting warfare and political expansion by using controlled marches - Cossack Hosts - would be wonderful and bring more depth to Russia gameplay, perhaps replacing some common tools/bonuses with this. In XIX century Cossacks had wars in Caucasus and Central Asia, so it is definite that it could be used extansively outside of Siberia as well. If you make these marches work as unique controlled proxies, kind of limited early client states specific to East Slavic group, it could be a great thing. Subjects would also reduce number of land you hold, addressing issues of not willing to go to Siberia to take too many "worthless" provinces.

And still, there is still a question of Mangazeya and ability of UK or others to establish colonies in the Siberian Arctic Ocean coast if they manage to expand there.

Overall, I agree with expanding Siberia, but it needs not only adding local tags and provinces, but also a revisit on how expansion in Siberia works to make it worth it. Since part of local nations was nomadic, it could be a part of overall revisit of Hordes... or a free patch, I suppose.
Oh yes! I have only partly read that book, but it included all data about how Cossacks came there, founded forts and assimilated/integrated people. Its nearly impossible to represent that currently, but there might be rework, creating those Cossack tags similar to colonial nations. (Siberian colonial nations, why not?)
I wanted to bring attention to this region so this topic was bit rushed, but I will try to add more information. There are also 17th century maps and more info about clans.
They should also add the Evenks as a culture, considering that an entire culture group is named after them. The Nanai and the Nivkh are currently represented as the Wild Jurchens aka Yeren. They are currently represented as Manchus, even though Manchus ≠ Jurchens. Manchus were only the Jurchens that were unified by Nurhaci. The descendents of the WiId Jurchens never viewed themselves as Manchu but as their own ethnic identities. If Paradox were to give the Yeren area their real cultures, they should also split up the Yeren tag and remove Manchu culture from that area.
Yeah, I need to research all around to write which cultures should be introduced, I couldn't cause I had no time. But Evenks are already in game like this:

Evenki:
  • Buryat
  • Manchu
  • Tungus
  • Yakut
  • Yukaghir
There are no primary tags for Yakuts and Tungus now.

Also

Ugric
  • Ingrian (unused)
  • Ostyak
  • Samoyed
  • Uralic
This group should see rework no primary tags for Ostyak (Khanty) I have already written about their principalities. Mansi might be also added in this group. Samoyeds have no tags also.

Uralic might be changed.
According to here
https://web.archive.org/web/2006110...no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Komi-Permyak
The Komi ancestors originally inhabited the middle and upper Kama river region. They were closely related with the Udmurts, but at some point more than 2000 years ago, they split. Around 500 AD, the Komi themselves split. Those who stayed behind in the Kama basin area became known as Komi Permyaks.
Perm is mentioned for the first time in Russian sources in 1187, when men from Novgorod completed one of their first campaigns to the Ural mountains to collect furs and taxes. In the 15th c., a Komi territorial formation existed, headed by a prince. Moscow had established its influence over the Vychegda area by this time, and started to expand their influence also to the Kama area, the homeland of the Komi-Permyaks. In 1463, bishop Iona baptised some of the Komi-Permyaks. Nine years later, after a military campaign, Moscow had gained control over the area, which became a forepost of trade with Siberia, and later - of the conquest of Siberia.
From the 16th c. onwards, Russians started to settle in the area, and salt and mining industry was established. Many Komi-Permyaks were exploited as cheap serf-like labour in these industries, suffering poverty and loss of their traditional way of life.

And here
https://web.archive.org/web/20061111115646/http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Komi
Towards the end of the 14th c., the Komi were converted to Christianity. This was to a large extent the work of the missionary, Saint Stephen of Perm, who started to work in the area in 1379. He also constructed a Komi alphabet and translated a series of religious texts into Komi.

There are great amount of flavour material for these Uralic region. Their old religions might actually be added instead of Tengri. Current Komi province which is uncolonized in 1444, might be added as base of Russian colony.

I plan to do total culture/religion updates for this thread, but I didn't read enough.

And as some of you stated, current provinces should see rework for sure. It is clear clans/princes generally settled around rivers. This is nice strategical point. (Yakut province is clear example, its west to rivers in game, but it should be right around rivers)

We should better ask @neondt about this region. Can we expect to see some tweaks or overhaul in Siberian region?
A History of the Peoples of Siberia: Russia's North Asian Colony 1581-1990 is great reference/resource book.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
Reactions:
But another issue is about taking the provinces. Right now there are concerns about taking Siberia as it is not a really profitable place while hugely increasing corruption for the state.

And still, there is still a question of Mangazeya and ability of UK or others to establish colonies in the Siberian Arctic Ocean coast if they manage to expand there.

A simple yet elegant way would be to open up the sea access to Mangazeya and make the Siberian trade node a TC (as others suggested previously). What downside would it have?
 
@AirikrStrife I really liked some of the ideas in these threads. (Like Pegaya Orda tag) Some things are just there to be directly used. Some data is speculative. Someone should compile all these data. Siberia might become very interesting geography with all these new cultures and tags.

But now I believe, patch like this should be accompanied by some new mechanics, for siberian clan government and religions(pagan/shaman). Current mechanics won't encourage people to try these tags.
 
The province Altai Uriankhai should not be Buryat. This provinces were occupied by peoples we now call the Altai. Using the current EU4 cultures, it should be changed into an Oirat province instead. In fact, the Russians even referred to Turkic Altai as oirat.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
The Nanai and the Nivkh are currently represented as the Wild Jurchens aka Yeren. They are currently represented as Manchus, even though Manchus ≠ Jurchens. Manchus were only the Jurchens that were unified by Nurhaci. The descendents of the WiId Jurchens never viewed themselves as Manchu but as their own ethnic identities. If Paradox were to give the Yeren area their real cultures, they should also split up the Yeren tag and remove Manchu culture from that area.

Time for me to contemplate playing a Yeren game where I don't form Manchuria and focus my expansion elsewhere.
 
My general opinionn on tags in sibera:

Western siberia:
3-4 tags for khanty and mansi principalities should be at least two province large to keep it from walking away
Some of the southern ones could have sunni islam as syncretic religion and be tributaries of Uzbek

Pegaya
orda/selkup

Nenets ((OPM)

Generally I do no find more northern samoyeds/dolgan large enough or enough organized to have a tag (show some sources if you think I'm wrong)
Same goes for the Ket and other yenisei tribes

South central siberia:
The sayan altai region could get two new states, Altai, representing altai proper and Teleuts. Khongoroi, for yenisei kirghiz/khakas and shors

A new tag for western buryats, renaming current Buryat tag to Barga.

Yakutsk tag around the Lena. Im thinking this should be opm too, or it will just sit around

Possible to throw in an Evenki tag also

Manchuria:
Split Yeren in two parts: Yeren and Beishan, Yeren will retain land in the amur-ussuri and sakhalin, the tag will represent people primarily living by river and coast or in forest including Nanai, Udeghe, Negidal, Nivkh orok and oroch
Beishan representing Daurs and horse evenks (solons) aswell as Oroqen rendeer nomads.

The split on way of life is more practical than ethnic boundaries, which were not particularly strict, especially river people like Nivkh lived in close relationship with other tungusic river folks. Some hunter groups were more isolated but essentially living in band societies which does not merit a tag
 
Last edited:
Yakutsk tag around the Lena. Im thinking this should be opm too, or it will just sit around

Yakutsk is the Russian city. This tag should probably be called Yakutia, similar to how the tag for the Buryats is called Buryatia.

I really like these proposals for splitting the Yeren tag. The Wild Jurchens definitely should be split.
 
Yakutsk is the Russian city. This tag should probably be called Yakutia, similar to how the tag for the Buryats is called Buryatia.

I really like these proposals for splitting the Yeren tag. The Wild Jurchens definitely should be split.

localisation is my bane, I just wrote it so we know what we're talking about, could also be called Sakha
 
Yakutsk is the Russian city. This tag should probably be called Yakutia, similar to how the tag for the Buryats is called Buryatia.
Your example isn't quite fitting. It's Buryatia for the Buryats because it's weird to name tags after people. Naming tags after cities, however, is perfectly fine. Besides, what is "Yakutia"? A country of... Yakutians? That's not how creating names works.

Yakutsk is by all means a good name for a tag. There's absolutely no need to make anything up here.