(Updated) More details for Anatolia & Aegean & Armenia & Kurdistan after Cradle of Civilization

[withche.07]

Currently Anatolia feels superficial in terms of province borders and so on.

I just want you to compare real size of Anatolia to Europe (I used this: http://thetruesize.com)

There are like only 35-37 provinces for modern day Turkish lands.
Then compare it to NL + Germany + Czech + Slovakia + Half Poland + Quarter Ukraine and a bit of France and Austria and Hungary. There are like 100s provinces there.

So there should be more provinces. I am looking at Osmanlı vilayets and sanjaks (https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmanlı_vilayetleri_listesi)

I suggest:

1.
Hüdavendigar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hüdavendigâr_Vilayet
and old hüdavendigar map:
http://tarihvemedeniyet.org/2009/10/hudavendigar-vilayeti.html

there were 5 sanjaks in this.
Kütahya (already seperate in the same name)
Karahisar-ı Sahip (already seperate in the name of Hamid)
Ertuğrul (should be newly added bordering Eskişehir while taking some of Eskişehir province)
Bursa (should be newly added as eastern half of hüdavendigar)
Karesi (should be newly added as western half of hüdavendigar and there should be new anatolian beylik claims in this (Karasids/Karesioğulları)
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karesi_Beyliği
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karasids

So instead of Hüdavendigar, 3 new provinces Bursa, Karesi (Balıkesir) and Ertuğrul. Populations were high enough.

2.
Edirne:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrianople_Vilayet
and old edirne map (basically shows seperations):

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gümülcine_Sancağı#/media/File:Adrianople_Vilayet_—_Memalik-i_Mahruse-i_Shahane-ye_Mahsus_Mukemmel_ve_Mufassal_Atlas_(1907).jpg

Kırkkilise (already seperate, no problem)
Tekfurdağı/Tekirdağ (should be newly added as very eastern part of Edirne)
Gelibolu (should be newly added as very southern part of Edirne, modern day Çanakkale, or gallipoli)
Gümülçine and Dedeağaç (should be newly added, I guess they are too small to be seperate)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Gümülcine
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedeağaç_Sancağı
and Edirne sanjak (normally)
So instead of huge Edirne 4 or 5 new provinces: Edirne, Gelibolu, Tekfurdağı and Gümülçine/Dedeağaç (seperate or together)

3.
Aydın:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidin_Vilayet#/media/File:CUINET(1894)_3.348_Smyrne_Vilayet.jpg
Too big again
Sarukhan Sanjak (already seperate)
Menteshe Sanjak (already seperate)
Smyrna Sanjak (should be newly added as new Smyrnia province, it was very crowded in past and still is.)
Denizli Sanjak
Aydin Sanjak

I believe Aydın and Denizli (they feel small alone) might be together getting some lands from saruhan, saruhan is already too big.
So instead of completely wrong Aydın, there would be 2 or 3 more provinces: Smyrnia (İzmir), Aydın and/or Denizli.

4.
Konya

I feel like this one is ok, some of its very small sanjaks (Bourdur and Isparta) was added to artificial Hamid, its okayish. (Afyon + Isparta + Burdur as one)

5.
Ankara Vilayet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara_Vilayet
I feel like this one is ok, too. Only Kırşehir might be added in between Kayseri, Bozok and Ankara.
So 1 more province to make others a bit smaller and realistic.

6.
Kastamonu: ok.

7.
Trabzon:

There should be Lazistan in between Trabzon itself and Guria (Batum)

8.
Halep (Aleppo)

more provinces needed between Halab, Marash, Malatya.
2 provinces should be added, Antep and Urfa, seperate.

9.
Diyarbakır:

1 Mardin province should be added. Diyarbakır is too big.

10.
Sivas:

Sivas (already added)
Amasya (already added)
Karahisar-ı Şarki
Tokad

There should be Tokad province together with Karahisar-ı Şarki. I think they are too small to be seperate.

11. Island group in very north aegean sea might be seperate:

Thasos, Limnos, Samothrace, Imbros (Gökçeada) & Tenedos (Bozcaada) as 1 province. They are big enough.

There are lots of maps (in Arabic) in these links I provided.

So this would completely delete Hüdavendigar and makes it 3. (2 new provinces) And new beylik.
Makes Edirne 3 more (or even 4) provinces bigger.
Makes Aydın 1 (or even 2) more province bigger.
This is my suggestion: remove artificial Hamid, make Afyon 1 province and Isparta-Burdur 1 province too. (1 more province)
Adds 1 more province around Ankara-Bozok.
1 more province next to Trabzon.
2 more provinces around Marash, Malatya, Halab.
1 more next to Diyarbakır
1 more next to Sivas
1 more island province at Aegean sea.

There could be lot more added from these sanjak maps.
1 more to Adana or even 1 more to Cyprus as there were 3 sanjaks in Cyprus in Ottoman times.

final link to look for maps and info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayet

Anatolia really cries for new provinces and updates dear Paradox, as you see Anatolia is already too big comparing to Europe, even making all sanjaks as provinces might work. I tried hard to make it more reasonable.
But some provinces feel really bad, like Edirne.

Note: I didnt look for southern eastern part of anatolia that much cause population was much more less.

Sorry for weak English.

My other suggestion for Anatolia:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...sultanate-of-rum-and-or-seljuk-empire.1008590

 

[TheWalttu]

There are lot of other ways to stop making Ottomans more powerful.
Giving beyliks some bonuses claims cores would do enough for early game. Thank you for support about my thought "removing free otto cores"

In 1.20 Ming patch "Millets" is -20% core creation cost, so the Osmans are already going to be nerfed.

 

[withche.07]

Thank you for info, also some people suggests (city of Adana for example, not whole city) was Armenian majority etc.
I don't really have papers on this but if we divide some of the provinces, we may make Anatolia more cultured not only Turk, maybe Armenian too. It would also nerf Otto.
But we should really follow history on this, I am pretty sure it was Turkish majority nearly %95 of west Anatolia.

 

[Vogelwiese]

Another idea could be that at least according to the English Wikipedia article the entire population of the former Karamanid Emirate was displaced after their conquest. This was probably as some sort of revenge for the sacking of Anatolia during the crusade in 1443. So an event that removes abit of development from the provinces and adds a smaller amount in other random provinces (apparently most were moved to recently conquered Bulgaria) could be nice maybe with increased unrest or stability cost as an alternative.

"During the Crusade of Varna against the Ottomans in 1443–44, Karamanid İbrahim Bey marched on Ankara and Kütahya, destroying both cities. In the meantime, the Ottoman sultan Murad II was returning from Rumelia with a victory against the Hungarian Crusaders. Like all other Islamic emirates in Anatolia, the Karamanids were accused of treason. Hence, İbrahim Bey accepted all Ottoman terms. The Karamanid state was eventually terminated by the Ottomans in 1487, as the power of their Mameluke allies was declining. To never again gather and threaten the integrity of the Empire, they displaced the entire population to the last man. Some were resettled in various parts of Anatolia. Large groups are accommodated in northern Iran on the territory of present-day Azerbaijan. The main part is brought to newly conquered territories in north-western Bulgaria—Ludogorie. Another group of what is now northern Greece, southern Bulgaria—present-day Kardzhali region and Macedonia. Ottomans founded Karaman Eyalet from former territories of Karamanids."

The relevant passage from the wikipedia article on the Karamanids.

 

[withche.07]

I also found trade agreement between Karaman-Venice at 1453:
"1453 Venice envoy Giovanni Mocenigo came to Konya to make an agreement with Ibrahim Bey, the subject of the deal was for commercial purposes Ibrahim Bey agreed to not allow any tax from Venetian merchants in his own territory and allow the use of Venetian weights and measures in his business between Venetians and his people. He also allowed the Republic of Venice to open an embassy wherever he wanted in his country, and he had the authority to appoint the trade diplomat he wanted to the Venetian government. "

Another info:

It is possible to get information about the Karamanoğulları in this work which describes the history of Enverî and Aydınoğlu, poet and historian. When Aydınoğlu Umur Bey took Izmir and the coastal Aegean Sea, there is information about the Embassy sent to Umar Bey by the Pope, Byzantine and Venetian to include the Karamanoğulları in the Crusader union.

Works Prof. Dr. Necdet Öztürk has been brought to the science community.

The Ottoman State faced with various reasons, especially the Karamanoğulları, Candaroğulları and İsfendiyaroğulları, in Çelebi Mehmed age. Karaman Beylik did not hesitate to cooperate with the Byzantine, Venetian and Balkan kingdoms against Ottomans as Karaman followed a two-faced politics in the reigns between the princes of Yildirim. At a time when Çelebi Mehmed was busy in Rumelia, Karamanoğlu surrounded Bursa (1413). Upon the heroic resistance of Bursa Subaşısı Hacı İvaz Pasha and the people of the city, the Karamanians were withdrawn. Çelebi Mehmed, who put the works of the Rumeli-yaki side in the way, came out on Karamanoğlu. Dulkadir, Isfendiyar and Germiyanoğulları soldiers and supplies were found. As a result, Akşehir, Beyşehir, Seydişehri, Okluk Hisarı, Said-eli and some other places were taken back (1414). Due to heavy rains, the Ottoman army gave great losses. When the conditions of the seasons were unfavorable, the sultan favored making peace with Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey (1414).

Karaman having better relations with Venice or some balkan christians might work, too.

 

[Metz]

By Proxy, the southern Balkans and Bulgaria region should also get a boost. Cut Epirus in two for example to create Ionnina and Arta. Trebizond would need an extra province and so would the Georgian/Armenian regions. There is a good suggestion thread that covers this.

 

[Promanco]

Altho I question the the unbiasness of the OP he does make a solid case for the provinces in Anatolia being too big, even if most of those new provinces are owned by the Ottomans it is still reasonable that invading that land should take more time to occupy.
So you get an "Agree" from me good sir.

 

[withche.07]

By Proxy, the southern Balkans and Bulgaria region should also get a boost. Cut Epirus in two for example to create Ionnina and Arta. Trebizond would need an extra province and so would the Georgian/Armenian regions. There is a good suggestion thread that covers this.

I also agree about Balkans, I don't have that much information on their case but I am pretty sure modern day Serbia and Bulgaria also feels artificial.

Altho I question the the unbiasness of the OP he does make a solid case for the provinces in Anatolia being too big, even if most of those new provinces are owned by the Ottomans it is still reasonable that invading that land should take more time to occupy.
So you get an "Agree" from me good sir.

Thank you for support, don't think me as "hurr durr ottomans" Turkish guy. I actually want Anatolia to be more detailed and Beyliks to be buffed to nerf Ottomans indirectly.
Did you ever see Beyliks staying alive? It is ok in historical matter, yes they should die. But even AI hardly stays alive like %10 of the time + there must be some reasons to play them, beating Ottos, allying christians etc, getting strategic points. There are too less provinces to think strategically in this matter, wherever you go, ottos are on your border. You wanna beat em? Ally other beyliks? no because they are also on your borders and they hate you. So it becomes so luck based to play beyliks.
Adding more provinces, possibly more beyliks and beylik roof as "Sultanate of Rum" (my suggestion in other tread) might really push Anatolia game to quite enjoyable levels.

 

[Simoleum]

Unless they spread out development, making it more or less the same as now with fewer provinces, I can't help seeing how it won't make the Ottomans even stronger. I do welcome more provinces though

 

[Grand Historian]

Thank you for info, also some people suggests (city of Adana for example, not whole city) was Armenian majority etc.
I don't really have papers on this but if we divide some of the provinces, we may make Anatolia more cultured not only Turk, maybe Armenian too. It would also nerf Otto.
But we should really follow history on this, I am pretty sure it was Turkish majority nearly %95 of west Anatolia.

Hm... @Chamboozer, do you have any specific data on the religious makeup of Adana in the 15th century after Timur?

 

[Dieselface]

I agree with this. Also (this isn't related to Anatolia but it's close) Edirne should be split into two provinces like in Extended Timeline: Edirne and Komotini. If you want to do a thread for improvements to the Balkans I can give even more suggestions.

 

[withche.07]

No need for changing these according to "vilayets": the glorious Greek liberation of these areas from the Turk invaders will make them ahistorical.

On a serious note though, unless they spread out development, making it more or less the same as now with fewer provinces, I can't help seeing how it won't make the Ottomans even stronger. I do welcome more provinces though

I guess you were talking about balkans, though, I suggest changes according to Ottoman papers to Anatolia(as I said I'm not sure about balkans)
Which will be more historical to change after Ottoman papers, there was HUGELY crowded cities all around Anatolia to be added (and still)

I agree with this. Also (this isn't related to Anatolia but it's close) Edirne should be split into two provinces like in Extended Timeline: Edirne and Komotini. If you want to do a thread for improvements to the Balkans I can give even more suggestions.

Edirne should be splitted at least 3 provinces! It is one of the most badly drawned provinces in eu4 map! Thank you.

 

[Simoleum]

I guess you were talking about balkans, though, I suggest changes according to Ottoman papers to Anatolia(as I said I'm not sure about balkans)
Which will be more historical to change after Ottoman papers, there was HUGELY crowded cities all around Anatolia to be added (and still)

No, I was talking about Anatolia. It too was conquered from the Greeks and settled by Turks, which obviously you know. I do support more provinces in the Balkans too though (everywhere, really)

 

[Reaux]

No, I was talking about Anatolia. It too was conquered from the Greeks and settled by Turks, which obviously you know. I do support more provinces in the Balkans too though (everywhere, really)

Didn't Ottomans had a policy to settle Turkish nomads to conquered provinces?

 

[withche.07]

Yes they had. So population has quickly changed to Turkish nearly everywhere except commercial cities (which were crowded by armenians, greeks, jews etc.)

 

[chegitz guevara]

So improving the Ottos is okay but not without some more power checks like that basically guaranteed Alliance with France in the early years.

You mean like happened in the real world?

 

[Dieselface]

Yes they had. So population has quickly changed to Turkish nearly everywhere except commercial cities (which were crowded by armenians, greeks, jews etc.)

Don't forget them Armenian highlands. They remained mostly Armenian and Kurdish until the 20th century

 

[chegitz guevara]

Didn't Ottomans had a policy to settle Turkish nomads to conquered provinces?

Not so much a policy as that was just what happened, up to the Safavid conquest of Persia. Before that, Turks kept emigrating from Central Asia, slowly changing the culture of Anatolia and the Southern Balkans Turkish (the latter more quickly, because the numerous wars of the late 14th Century through the conquest of Hungary devastated the Greek speaking peoples).

Still, places like Smyrna and Trebezond didn't become majority Turkish until the Turkish War of Liberation in the 1920s.

This is, however, still a very touchy subject even today, and Paradox likes to steer clear of such things. When I was in Syntagma Square a few years ago, someone had an info display about the Pontic Greeks. I think it was some kind of fascist revanchist thing, but I don't read Greek, and I was more interested in finding anarchist stuff.

 

[Dieselface]

Edirne should be splitted at least 3 provinces! It is one of the most badly drawned provinces in eu4 map! Thank you.

I usually play with extended timeline, so I'm not sure, but does the Vanilla Edirne still contain part of modern Bulgaria? Because if it does I agree with you that should be split into three. If not, then I still think two is fine.

 

[chegitz guevara]

Split Salonika into Macedonia and Salonika. Then when the Moros event fires, Salonika's culture can change to Safardic and the religion to Jewish.

 

[Dieselface]

Split Salonika into Macedonia and Salonika. Then when the Moros event fires, Salonika's culture can change to Safardic and the religion to Jewish.

Safardic isn't even an EU4 culture as far as I know, and the closest thing would be Andalusian. Plus I don't see how any Ottoman player would want this as it would change a province that has an accepted culture to one without one