Giving Genocidals diplomatic stances

[Tamwin5]

In another thread I saw this post by Methone:

Normally, I'd be against this sort of idea. But recently I found something in the localization files. Something... interesting.

Normally, the Genocidal empires are locked to one of three special Diplomatic Stances, each with no effect but a touch of flavor text:

• Purification: This empire believes that enemies exist solely to be destroyed, and that they are the ones chosen to do so.
• Hunger: This empire hungers and consumes.
• Extermination: This empire's purpose is to destroy all biological life.

But in diplo_stances_l_english I found the following diplomatic stances, seemingly unused:

• "Withdrawn", aka diplo_stance_isolationist_purifiers_desc:0 "This empire has turned inwards, entering a rebuilding phase."
• "Rest", aka diplo_stance_isolationist_swarm_desc:0 "This empire has entered a dormant state."
  
• "Recompiling", aka diplo_stance_isolationist_exterminators_desc:0 "This empire has entered an introspective state, pausing and reassessing their purpose."

This gives me the idea of maybe Genocidals being able to occasionally 'withdraw', still being dangerous but not actively aggressive, for whatever reason. The Exterminator Isolationist one specifically points towards, potentially, a scrapped idea for genocidal empires to stop being genocidal entirely.

This is a very interesting concept, and one which I wish was expanded upon. Allowing a genocidal to enter periods of conquest and isolation would give an interesting dynamic to interacting with genocidals, and if done properly would be a welcome addition. Here is my suggestion for how such a system might work

I considered removing some of the fire rate from the civic bonus, adding it back for the "offensive" stance and adding and equivalent home fire rate bonus for the "isolation" stance. That way warmongering in the "isolation" stance is heavily discouraged, without weakening their defense. Unfortunately, each genocidal civic gets their bonuses in different ways, with only fanatic purifiers having fire rate. Instead I decided to go for relatively minor effects, and keep the effects the same across all three.

Genocidal Diplo stances

• Purification/Hunger/Extermination: +10% sunlight speed. -20% war exhaustion.

• Withdrawn/Rest/Recompiling: +5 stability. +50% devastation decay. (instead of 0.5%, 0.75% monthly). Declaring a war costs 100 Influence.

The influence cost for declaring war I'm not 100% happy with, but I think it's a good way to discourage wars and give the impression that the empire won't be going out conquering. If people have other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Methone]

Unfortunately, each genocidal civic gets their bonuses in different ways, with only fanatic purifiers having fire rate. Instead I decided to go for relatively minor effects, and keep the effects the same across all three.

Doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. Each of the Genociders gets its own Diplo stance already, just do something like Purifier-stance is +X% Fire Rate, Swarm-stance is +X% Hull Points, Terminator-stance is +X% damage.

I certainly love the idea of them. But now that we have the button, we need a finger to push it: It's all fine and dandy that a player goes "Alright, I've stretched myself a bit thin, time to pull it back a bit" but what will make the AI do this? What if you can force a Genocider to enter their isolationist stance through one or more means?

 

[G S Palmer]

This would be a pretty nice addition.

What if you can force a Genocider to enter their isolationist stance through one or more means?

Hey, maybe this would allow us to vassalize purifiers and keep them as a really nasty attack dog.

 

[Maethendias]

yes, fleshing out features, i agree

 

[Mastikator]

Withdrawn could mean the loss of total war CB in both directions. Genociders would only get defensive wars and if declared war on they get humiliate CB. When they are in withdrawn mode you have to claim them or use liberation wars.

 

[G S Palmer]

Withdrawn could mean the loss of total war CB in both directions. Genociders would only get defensive wars and if declared war on they get humiliate CB. When they are in withdrawn mode you have to claim them or use liberation wars.

I would say they should lose the total war CB but other empires should keep it, with the exception that the genocidal empire will get a massive boost to home territory fire rate.

 

[Tamwin5]

I would say they should lose the total war CB but other empires should keep it, with the exception that the genocidal empire will get a massive boost to home territory fire rate.

I don't think that genocidals should get a net home fire rate bonus for being withdrawn. It would mean that often in wars, it would be better to be in the withdrawn state, which doesn't make much sense lore wise. Plus, jumping on a genocidal while they are trying to lick their wounds I think makes a ton of sense.

I wouldn't be opposed to a third diplomatic stance, a "holding ground" stance where the genocidal is seeking to defend their borders from enemies. A defensive war stance, as opposed to an aggressive war stance. Something like -10% fire rate, +20% home territory fire rate, and then maybe one or two minor buffs/nerfs encouraging a defensive play style.

 

[G S Palmer]

I don't think that genocidals should get a net home fire rate bonus for being withdrawn. It would mean that often in wars, it would be better to be in the withdrawn state, which doesn't make much sense lore wise. Plus, jumping on a genocidal while they are trying to lick their wounds I think makes a ton of sense.

Except they wouldn't be able to declare war while they had the withdrawn stance, and you can't change stance while in a war, so even if they got declared on, they wouldn't be able to switch to having the home territory bonus.

 

[Tamwin5]

Except they wouldn't be able to declare war while they had the withdrawn stance, and you can't change stance while in a war, so even if they got declared on, they wouldn't be able to switch to having the home territory bonus.

It still makes them be weakest when they say "ok I'm looking for a fight", which I don't think makes sense.

The Withdrawn stance should also probably add penalties to survey speed and outpost influence cost. That way it doesn't become an obvious swap over for the early game. If you are exploring and expanding, that's not being withdrawn.

 

[G S Palmer]

It still makes them be weakest when they say "ok I'm looking for a fight", which I don't think makes sense.

No, they just swap their regular firepower bonus for a home territory firepower bonus when they enter withdrawn diplo stance.

So it disincentives going out an conquering while in that stance, and instead forces you to stay home and build up.

Maybe they could get a ship build speed bonus while withdrawn, to emphasize that they're licking their wounds after a fight.

 

[Tamwin5]

No, they just swap their regular firepower bonus for a home territory firepower bonus when they enter withdrawn diplo stance.

So it disincentives going out an conquering while in that stance, and instead forces you to stay home and build up.

Maybe they could get a ship build speed bonus while withdrawn, to emphasize that they're licking their wounds after a fight.

Ahhh your original post that I was replying to implied a bonus, not a swap:

I would say they should lose the total war CB but other empires should keep it, with the exception that the genocidal empire will get a massive boost to home territory fire rate.

If you wanted to decrease outside territory rate, rather then have it be different for all 3 types, I'd make it a "-fire rate, +home territory fire rate". That way it's clear and simple the effects it gives. Ship build speed and starbase upgrade speed would be ways to emphasize the licking their wounds without giving too powerful of bonuses. If there was a supply system, it would fit right in giving a bonus to supply production, but we don't have it.