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05060403

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The Assurance of Appointment Act: No
Confirmation of the Appointment Replacement Act: Abstain
Speaker of the House Act: No
Cortz Election Act: Abstain
Since I am not a member of the Corz, I don't think I should vote on something that will affect that house.
House Composition Act: Yes
The Reformation of Administration Act: Yes
While I don't agree with all bills proposed by monsieur von Politz, I have to say that this one is well constructed and I think that thanks to di the administartion would be more efficiant.
Regional Governance Act: No
The Ministry of Espionage Act: No
With the Minstry of Justice there is no need to establish another body that would do a similar job.
The Protection of Hispania Act: Yes
Military Support Act: Abstain
Amendment to Naval Reform of 1793: Yes
The Free Trade Act: No
Protection of the Ruthenian People Act: Yes
Referendum for Hispanian Greeks: Yes

Vote for one or neither:
Federalization of Italy Act: No
Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No

Amendment to the Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No

Speaker (Assembly Only): Charles Gustave de Saint-Pierre ((05060403))
(( It doesn't feel right to vote for myself, but since by voting I also decide the votes from every member of Marina... :rolleyes: ))
Greek Revolution: Diplomacy Only

Mission: Trade

[ Courier, TATC, Minister of the Navy, Admiral | Assembly, Parta Marina ]



(( And I'm going to reserve this to reply to Duke Dan, I just don't have enough time now :p ))
 

Michaelangelo

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Justinian Lagos joins the Faccion del Fenix. :eek:

After a very short discussion within the faction, Faixòn addresses Lagos.
"We were not entirely sure how to interprete this declaration, Archbishop. Luckily for you, our faction hasn't got an autocratic structure, or the answer would have reached you immediately. Still, I am sure the reaction will surprise nobody. I hereby ask you: Is it a joke, or is it an insult? Because we unanimously decided to deny you whatever it is you wish to accomplish. The Facció del Fénix is true to its ideals, unlike some other factions. We do not betray these ideals! We do not sell our souls! We see this declaration as an insult, and denounce it!
The Facció del Fénix fights to give the people a stronger voice - not less! To remove this leftover thorn in the side of the Assembly that is the appointment! Not to keep and defend it, like you do! We represent the desire for secularization, and you are a clergyman! Do you believe we are that gullible and naive that we welcome the political opposite into our faction? You are insulting us.
So we will not hold back, honourless rat. Go complain to the pope if that helps you, though I am sure he will tell you the same in other words, or the conclave would have never elected him. This lame attempt to disrupt your opponent by joining him and still keeping your own views only presents you as the lowest of the low. Do not expect any one of us, nor anyone who calls himself a politician to respect you more than a cockroach. Before you become a Fénix, I am the leader of the Imperials! Return to the hole you came from!"

((I would say nice try, but this is so incredibly obvious... :rolleyes:))

((I honestly thought it was a joke when I first read it and counted hirahammad's vote as an independent. Glad that I did. :p))
 

Michaelangelo

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((I suppose I should jumpstart negotiations with the revolutionaries.))

A mysterious letter arrived from Byzantium, supposedly from the Revolutionary Assembly in Constantinople, a body created by the revolutionary leaders to lead the country in its transition to a new government following revolutionary ideals. While the city is still in dispute and the Basileus's forces have yet to be defeated, the revolutionaries appear to be preparing for the future. The Emperor has since gotten a hold of it and decided to share it with Parliament.

We, the members of the Revolutionary Assembly, send this message in the hopes of creating a mutual understanding between our two peoples. It would appear that earlier negotiations failed or were neglected, perhaps due to errors on both sides. We have since organized and are prepared to deal with Hispania as equals. We are also aware that the Basilissa and her children are currently within Hispania. We pledge that as long as they remain under your care, we shall not attempt to capture or harm them. Anyone attempting to do so will be considered a traitor to the Revolution.

We universally believe that our aims do not necessarily conflict with Hispania's and that we may be able to encourage friendly relations going into the future. Hispania has left a permanent mark on Byzantium, and to decide the future of the Greek people without first at least attempting to involve our Hispanian brethren would be a great disservice. No matter how we improve our nation for the better, we shall continue to be neighbours. We thus wish to negotiate a settlement to decide how our two peoples will interact in the future. We require certain conditions be met to ensure that Hispania truly desires what is best for the Greeks. We believe that if Hispania actually cares for the Greek people, her people will choose to not intervene in this conflict and perhaps even support our goals. Our conditions are as follows:
  1. An official declaration by His Imperial Highness and the Hispanian Parliament not to intervene in Greek affairs without express permission by the Revolutionary Assembly or any government formed to take its place.
  2. Official recognition by His Imperial Highness and the Hispanian Parliament that all Greek people are rightful citizens of Byzantium and so is the land they possess.
  3. Official recognition by His Imperial Highness and the Hispanian Parliament of Byzantium as a fully independent nation.
  4. An official declaration by His Imperial Highness and the Hispanian Parliament to recognize the government formed by the Revolutionary Assembly once the Revolution is successful.
  5. The immediate transfer of all members of the Greek royal family currently in Hispania to the Revolutionary Assembly and the official recognition of the Revolutionary Assembly's right to create a tribunal to judge them for their crimes.
We realize that these conditions may not be entirely preferable to all within Hispania and we encourage active discussion so that we may meet an agreeable settlement. We also recognize that for relations to be pleasant between our two peoples, we must give something in return. We thus wish to offer these conditions on our part:
  1. The Revolutionary Assembly and any government formed to take its place officially recognizes the sovereignty of Hispania and her subjects over their own territory and shall refrain from infringing on that right without express permission.
  2. The Revolutionary Assembly and any government formed to take its place commits to allowing advisors chosen by His Imperial Highness and the Hispanian Parliament to assist in the creation of a Hispanian-model Parliament within Byzantium.
  3. The Revolutionary Assembly and any government formed to take its place commits to continuing any agreements created by the old regime between our two nations that does not conflict with the ideals of the Revolution.
  4. The Revolutionary Assembly and any government formed to take its place commits to ensuring positive relations between our two relations and expresses a willingness to pursue further diplomatic relations in the future.
  5. The Revolutionary Assembly and any government formed to take its place officially declares that all Hispanians currently within Byzantium shall be granted protection by the current revolutionary government and be allowed free passage out of the country without hindrance. Any prisoners of war captured during the ongoing conflict who are revealed to be Hispanian shall be transferred over to Hispanian care.
We hope that these conditions are amiable to you and that we can arrange a suitable agreement for us both.

The Greeks shall never be slaves!

((There are the current conditions the Greeks require. If we agree, this will mean we can no longer intervene and the outcome of the Revolution will be entirely decided by the Greeks, or rather the AI. Our agreement will then affect the ultimate outcome if the Revolution succeeds. Feel free to discuss the terms and whether they should be agreed to as is or if certain terms should be renegotiated. The Revolutionary Assembly is not inflexible and may agree to change certain terms to ensure Hispania's cooperation, or at least make us look the other way.))
 

alscon

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The demands of the revolutionaries seem mostly reasonable. It is just that we have to make some corrections so that it neither conflicts with Hispanian integrity nor with their own ideals they haven't entirely thought over outside of their current sphere of influence. The demands of recognition are demands easily satisfied for the most part, but not the territorial question: The revolutionaries wish that all Greeks are Byzantines. We are opening this choice to the Hispanian Greeks themselves in a referendum. I am certain that it is also in their own interest to have the people decide their future themselves, as this is what they are doing, and they wouldn't want to act similarly to the government they are rising up against.
Then we have to face the fact that there are many among us who fear a show trial. The revolutionaries may agree to alleviate that concern by having independent Hispanian judges lead the trial; men who are not biased and won't be influenced by threats. Of course the trial would be in accordance to Greek law and the revolutionaries able to decline judges they deem unsuitable.
I would then also add a condition to their own government: A reservation of intervention should the new government abuse its rights and betray its ideals. As they wish to follow them, they shouldn't fear this condition to activate.
 

Firehound15

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"I believe that the terms proposed are mostly amenable, however, we would be wise to push against the repatriation of the Basileus and his family. Perhaps we could offer an exchange wherein they will be granted exile among us, rather than among the den of wolves? We could also consider offering to judge them in a Hispanian tribunal, but I do not believe that our system of laws would derive the same conclusion which those rebels so clearly desire."
 

zenphoenix

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"I respect the other MPs right to agree with the terms, but I personally do not approve of them as they are. They ask us to completely withdraw from the Greek territories and not interfere in any of their affairs. They explicitly demand that we recognize the Greek empire as an independent nation, which would likely harm many of our merchants' interests in the region until the new government signs trade deals with Valencia. But if a majority of the Greek people wish for independence, I will respect that wish. I recommend for the Revolutionary Assembly and the Hispanian Parliament to approve of a national referendum, monitored by both sides to prevent rigging by either party, on the status of the Greeks in relation to Hispania. Our Emperor is the Protector of the Greeks, and he must protect all Greeks equally. That means protecting the Basileus and his family while also respecting the rights of the Greek people.

I also request that the revolutionaries add the following requests:

That they agree to retain the Greek monarchy in some way suitable to their demands. This does not require them to keep their current Basileus; they may choose another suitable candidate from the Palaiologos family. Other demands made regarding a new government are acceptable.

That they withdraw their demand to repatriate the members of the Palaiologoi in exile in Hispania. If this request is not acceptable, that they be at least given a trial mediated by Hispanian and independent judges (ie, non-Hispanian and non-Greek). This trial will be conducted according to Greek law, of course.

That they at least exempt the underage members of the royal family from such a trial. These children have not committed a crime other than being related to the Basileus and should not be put on trial for the crimes of a relative.

That the Hispanian government reserve the right to intervene in Greek affairs should the new government abuses its powers. This should not be a problem for the new government and is intended to be a safety net for the Greek people.

Thank you for your patience. I yield the floor."
 

05060403

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Dear leaders of the revolution,
You may have heard of me, however to get the formalities out of the way I shall introduce myself. My name is Charles Gustave de Saint-Pierre, and I write to you because I have an offer I wish to make.
Let me start off by saying that I admire your struggles and the spirit of your people, and that I wish you success in overthrowing the despots who oppressed you for so long. However it’s very obvious that you have to fight to do so. And fighting requires men and weapons.
That is why I wish to make you and offer that I think you will not turn down. As you most likely know I am the executive of the TATC, as well as an active member of Hispanian Parta Marina. My family also is quite known by other merchant houses, which results in powerful connections.
So skipping all that, I would wish to supply your cause with equipment, weaponry, supplies and other necessary goods. I also hope that this could be a begging of good relations between the TATC and the new government once the revolution will triumph.
However I must say that I’d prefer for this arrangement to stay in secret, for safety of me and those who will work with me in order to make this deal possible. Of course only my most entrusted workers would be sent with the supplies.

Sincerely,
Charles Gustave de Saint-Pierre,
Executive of the Trans-Atlantic Trading Company, Minister of the Navy of Hispania
 

Michaelangelo

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JpsioAG.png

I must concur with most of the concerns raised here. In regards to the revolutionaries' claims to our Greek lands on the principle that all Greeks should be part of Byzantium, I would believe that the referendum we are considering holding may be satisfactory to this Revolutionary Assembly. As MA Faixòn has pointed out, allowing the people to decide is the best option, and ensures the most fair outcome is chosen. It will also add some form of legitimacy to whatever is decided.

As for the demand that we hand over the royal family so they may be put on trial, I share the sentiment expressed here that I cannot in good conscience allow that to happen. The Basileus's children are innocent due to their youth, as Duke Leon has pointed out. As for the Basilissa, she is my own cousin, and to hand her over for a trial of dubious legality would be a stain on my family's honour. Ultimately, if any crime was committed by the royal family, it would originate from the one in charge, the Basileus. Seeing as we do not know his whereabouts, we must accept the fact that his fate is out of our hands. We may not be able to intervene on his behalf as a result. The suggestion by MA de Salcedo that the royal family be allowed to live in exile in Hispania may be a valid alternative to ensure they escape a potential deadly fate.

The idea that the monarchy be retained in some form has my support. I do realize that these revolutionaries probably do not trust the Basileus, but Leon's suggestion may be the best one. If the Basileus can be convinced to abdicate, wherever he is, a more suitable monarch can be placed on the throne. It seems likely though that this Revolutionary Assembly will require certain guarantees to ensure the Greek people are respected and receive a say in the new government. It is likely any future Basileus will have his power limited in some form. I am not certain how this Revolutionary Assembly will react to such a proposition, but we shall have to see, won't we.

A condition to allow Hispania to intervene if this Revolution takes a darker turn sounds like a good idea, but I fear it may be open to interpretation. What we may believe to be an abuse of power or a violation of this new government's ideals might not be what they believe it to be. We may well see ourselves forced to intervene, believing that this condition has been violated and that we must ensure the safety of the Greek people, only to have the new government declare that we are violating our agreement by intervening when they believe nothing is wrong. This may need to be expanded on so we do not cause conflict because of a misunderstanding.

- His Imperial Highness, Alfons IX de Trastámara, Emperor of Hispania, Caesar of Rome, King of Transdacia, Duke of Bavaria, & Protector of the Greeks

* * * * *

Dear leaders of the revolution,
You may have heard of me, however to get the formalities out of the way I shall introduce myself. My name is Charles Gustave de Saint-Pierre, and I write to you because I have an offer I wish to make.
Let me start off by saying that I admire your struggles and the spirit of your people, and that I wish you success in overthrowing the despots who oppressed you for so long. However it’s very obvious that you have to fight to do so. And fighting requires men and weapons.
That is why I wish to make you and offer that I think you will not turn down. As you most likely know I am the executive of the TATC, as well as an active member of Hispanian Parta Marina. My family also is quite known by other merchant houses, which results in powerful connections.
So skipping all that, I would wish to supply your cause with equipment, weaponry, supplies and other necessary goods. I also hope that this could be a begging of good relations between the TATC and the new government once the revolution will triumph.
However I must say that I’d prefer for this arrangement to stay in secret, for safety of me and those who will work with me in order to make this deal possible. Of course only my most entrusted workers would be sent with the supplies.

Sincerely,
Charles Gustave de Saint-Pierre,
Executive of the Trans-Atlantic Trading Company, Minister of the Navy of Hispania

We welcome all assistance in the fight against the anti-revolutionary forces and to create a representative Greek government.

The Greeks shall never be slaves!
 

Duke Dan `the Man`

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In the event that a choice for a diplomatic resolution to the revolutionaries in Greece is given, I offer to you my abilities as an Imperial Emissary to these men and women. My family has a history of solving diplomatic crises with the enemies of Hispania, going back in particular to the late Count of Florence. I see it best, personally, to give this to you directly, rather than your mother, those not for any particular personal decision. In essence, it appears that your mother has more focus to warring with other nations and do many of her other duties. I do not believe she has the 'finesse' necessary for diplomatic negotiations and finding common ground, This is in no way mandatory for you, rather I am simply offering myself as a representative of the Empire.

The Countess of Florence

Alexandra couldn't help but laugh at the seeming ignorance of either her heritage by the Prince Matthias, of the confusion of her as a man by Saint-Pierre
 

Firehound15

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SECOND CONGRESS OF THE ITALIAN PROVINCES
((Semi-Private))

oUTdYIo.jpg

In response to the imminent failure of both proposals on Italian autonomy within Parliament, the Second Congress of the Italian Provinces was called as a semi-private meeting of thirty-one delegates, hailing from every province of Italy. The aim of the Congress was to develop and propose a new attempt at greater Italian rights. By making clear that Italy desired autonomy and was willing to submit its request directly to the Emperor, they hoped that what Parliament rejected might still be bestowed upon them.
 

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Dadarian

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humboldt.jpg

Duque y Conte y Conte Guillen III L. T. Etxeto, c. 1820

Name: Gran Duque Guillen Tomas Ximon Etxeto de Etxeto, Duque de Navarra, Conte de Vizcaya, Conte de Riojo, Conte de Burgos
Date of Birth: 21 February 1761 - 1836 (75)
Class: Landed Noble (Navarre)
Religion: Catholic

- - - - - - - - - - -

Etxeto-arms.gif

Coat of Arms of the Etxeto
It is my sad duty to announce that my father, the late Grand Duke Etxeto, Duke of Navarre, Count of Vizcaya, Count of Burgos, and Count of Riojo, has past into the hands of the Lord. Aged three score and a year, he will be missed. However as he has past into the arms of the Lord, I, Guillen Tomas Ximon Etxeto, do rightfully claim his place as Grand Duke Etxeto and all the other titles and responsibilities of said title as Grand Duque Guillen III Etxeto.

I also claim my family's place on the Cortz.
 
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Michaelangelo

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In the event that a choice for a diplomatic resolution to the revolutionaries in Greece is given, I offer to you my abilities as an Imperial Emissary to these men and women. My family has a history of solving diplomatic crises with the enemies of Hispania, going back in particular to the late Count of Florence. I see it best, personally, to give this to you directly, rather than your mother, those not for any particular personal decision. In essence, it appears that your mother has more focus to warring with other nations and do many of her other duties. I do not believe she has the 'finesse' necessary for diplomatic negotiations and finding common ground, This is in no way mandatory for you, rather I am simply offering myself as a representative of the Empire.

The Countess of Florence

Alexandra couldn't help but laugh at the seeming ignorance of either her heritage by the Prince Matthias, of the confusion of her as a man by Saint-Pierre

JpsioAG.png

Diplomatic negotiations are usually conducted under the purview of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and by official members of the ministry. It would be highly irregular to allow anyone outside the ministry to conduct such business. However, these are unusual times. We aren't even dealing with an official state as of yet. Frankly, the odd nature of this Revolutionary Assembly makes official negotiations much more difficult and fluid than they usually are. I am thus willing to allow individual actors to make attempts at negotiations if they can meet a suitable arrangement with these revolutionaries. It should be clear that while you may be able to pursue potential settlements, you will not have the authority to commit to anything definite without the approval of the Crown. I will personally be overseeing all negotiation attempts with this Revolutionary Assembly, due to the severity of the matter. I pray though that allowing people such as you to feel out this unknown entity for a potential agreement between our two peoples can lead to a satisfactory conclusion.

- His Imperial Highness, Alfons IX de Trastámara, Emperor of Hispania, Caesar of Rome, King of Transdacia, Duke of Bavaria, & Protector of the Greeks
 

wzhang29

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((Name: Liu Shuangguang
DOB: 1758
Class: Courtier
Religion: CJC-Protestant (actual religion a secret)
Faction: Independent
House: Assembly))


The Assurance of Appointment Act: Abstain
Confirmation of the Appointment Replacement Act: No
Speaker of the House Act: No
Cortz Election Act: Abstain
House Composition Act: Abstain
The Reformation of Administration Act: No
Regional Governance Act: No
The Ministry of Espionage Act: Abstain
The Protection of Hispania Act: Abstain
Military Support Act: Yes
Amendment to Naval Reform of 1793: Yes
The Free Trade Act: No
Protection of the Ruthenian People Act: Abstain
Referendum for Hispanian Greeks: Abstain

Vote for one or neither:
Federalization of Italy Act: No
Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No

Amendment to the Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No

Speaker (Assembly Only): Abstain

Greek Revolution: Abstain

Mission: Buton

~刘双广
 
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texasjoshua

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In regards to the Revolutionary proposal, I certainly agree that some of the points are agreeable, while other are all together untenable. A trial conducted by Hispanian judges would be satisfactory to me, as well as a promise by the Revolutionary Government to honor the results of the referendum. I will put my full faith of the negotiations into his imperial highness' hands.


The Assurance of Appointment Act: No
Confirmation of the Appointment Replacement Act: Yes
Speaker of the House Act: No
Cortz Election Act: No
House Composition Act: Abstain
The Reformation of Administration Act: No
Regional Governance Act: No
The Ministry of Espionage Act: No
The Protection of Hispania Act: Yes
Military Support Act: Yes (However, due to the crowns entering negotiations with Byzantine Rebels, intervention may be delayed until negotiations are concluded)
Amendment to Naval Reform of 1793: Yes
The Free Trade Act: No
Protection of the Ruthenian People Act: No
Referendum for Hispanian Greeks: Yes

Vote for one or neither:
Federalization of Italy Act: No!
Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No!

Amendment to the Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No

Speaker (Assembly Only): ((Can't Vote :( ))

Greek Revolution: Diplomacy First, then Intervention if no diplomatic solution is reached.

Mission: Buton

Altair Spoleto, Chamberlain of the Cortz, Count of Cremona, Member of the Imperial Faction
 

hirahammad

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In regards to the Revolutionary proposal, I certainly agree that some of the points are agreeable, while other are all together untenable. A trial conducted by Hispanian judges would be satisfactory to me, as well as a promise by the Revolutionary Government to honor the results of the referendum. I will put my full faith of the negotiations into his imperial highness' hands.


The Assurance of Appointment Act: No
Confirmation of the Appointment Replacement Act: Yes
Speaker of the House Act: No
Cortz Election Act: No
House Composition Act: Abstain
The Reformation of Administration Act: No
Regional Governance Act: No
The Ministry of Espionage Act: No
The Protection of Hispania Act: Yes
Military Support Act: Yes (However, due to the crowns entering negotiations with Byzantine Rebels, intervention may be delayed until negotiations are concluded)
Amendment to Naval Reform of 1793: Yes
The Free Trade Act: No
Protection of the Ruthenian People Act: No
Referendum for Hispanian Greeks: Yes

Vote for one or neither:
Federalization of Italy Act: No!
Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No!

Amendment to the Motion to Organize a Federation of the Italian Provinces: No

Speaker (Assembly Only): ((Can't Vote :( ))

Greek Revolution: Diplomacy First, then Intervention if no diplomatic solution is reached.

Mission: Buton

Altair Spoleto, Chamberlain of the Cortz, Count of Cremona, Member of the Imperial Faction
((Lagos sent a letter to Altair Spoleto asking him to meet in some hallway at some time and go through some lengthy verification process to have a conversation, on behalf of the Illuminati
The Assurance of Appointment Act: Yes

Dear Count,

It has come to our attention that the views you hold on politics are rightly guided. Quite enlightened. But will you work to make your views a reality? If so, come to hallway in between the Southeastern and Northeastern wings of the Assembly, at seven hours after noon, and talk of cheese. A man will meet you, speaking of olives. He will lead you into another room, where we will discuss further options in the quest to save Hispania.

The Illuminati
((Fellow Illuminati members, Lagos is voluntarily keeping you out of the loop. :cool: Its a conspiracy in a conspiracy. ;) ))
((Public))
"I propose that we demand of the rebels and Byzantines to remain where they are and engage in no further hostilities while negotiations are ongoing. In order to enforce this if they accept, we can send one Exercit to patrol Byzantium and aid those displaced and suffering. One Exercit only, so that the rebels do not fear that we have begun a military intervention."

After much debate, all of it much more civilized than Parliamentary debate, the CJC has instituted changes in its doctrines. ((I completely forgot that Church Aspects existed. :oops: New ones: Organize Through Bishops, Allow Usury, and Translated Bibles. These three aspects are known IC, I just am not sure how to phrase it so I'm posting OC. ;) ))
 
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Duke Dan `the Man`

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It is in the most interest of myself of the affairs of the Easterners. It is through many choices that has lead to this very moment, theses very years in fact. I understand your sentiments against your leader, very well in fact. But I do not wish for war, or a civil war to break out on ce more within the aegis of the Mediterrean. It is my wish, thusly, to negotiate for a possible compromise.

As to the first point, I do agree. After all, Byzantium is a 'protectorate' of the Hispanian Empire. I believe in a sort of 'dependent independence' of the Eastern Roman Empire. Dependent, as under the protection of the Hispania, but independent in its internal affairs. Speaking of which, in point 3, it is the request of your government that Hispania recognize your independence. A reclassification of our relationship into a 'protectorate' would as well agree to this point. Under the protection of Hispania, but independent as well. Point 2 is also agreeable, as the Byzantine state is independent.

But it is Point 5 of which I have troubles. I do not believe this is necessary. At least from an Italian's point of view, I do see any crimes the Basileus has committed. I believe a better solution is marginalizing the Basileus, as the 'head of state' while the Assembly or some other legislature serves as the true rulers of the country, under a Parliamentary, or Constitutional Monarchy. This doesn't have the effect of losing face with the other royalty of the Europe.

Your concessions with our Empire are reasonable. Of particular interest to me is point 2, of which I have my own suggestions. I suggest a restoration of the Byzantine Senate, but with elected officials. Serving for 6 years with the terms staggered so a 1/3 of the Senate is elected every 2 years. I do not believe that a sudden upheaval of gov. is best for the nation, but rather gradual changes is the best for stability.

The Countess of Florence
Post Script: My views of that of my own, and none elses.

"Your lack of knowledge continues to amaze me Don Fenix, any troops sent to Byzantium will be seen as an intervention by someone, I am certain. And you're believe that they will just listen to us? With us being the Empire. Men do not simply listen to what the Empire says? Why else is there crime, after all, we said it is illegal to do this and that. Your simple, idiotic belief that everyone will simply listen to your words and automatically do it is at times astounding. And then there is the matter of the Excerit we would send if, if we do what you said. There will be people still fighting, and simply ignoring what you say. I do have eperience with this. And the size of many of the armies is larger than the Excerit itself. We would be patrolling around an Empire with a revolutionary fervour against authority, with their revolutionary armies larger than our own."
 

hirahammad

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It is in the most interest of myself of the affairs of the Easterners. It is through many choices that has lead to this very moment, theses very years in fact. I understand your sentiments against your leader, very well in fact. But I do not wish for war, or a civil war to break out on ce more within the aegis of the Mediterrean. It is my wish, thusly, to negotiate for a possible compromise.

As to the first point, I do agree. After all, Byzantium is a 'protectorate' of the Hispanian Empire. I believe in a sort of 'dependent independence' of the Eastern Roman Empire. Dependent, as under the protection of the Hispania, but independent in its internal affairs. Speaking of which, in point 3, it is the request of your government that Hispania recognize your independence. A reclassification of our relationship into a 'protectorate' would as well agree to this point. Under the protection of Hispania, but independent as well. Point 2 is also agreeable, as the Byzantine state is independent.

But it is Point 5 of which I have troubles. I do not believe this is necessary. At least from an Italian's point of view, I do see any crimes the Basileus has committed. I believe a better solution is marginalizing the Basileus, as the 'head of state' while the Assembly or some other legislature serves as the true rulers of the country, under a Parliamentary, or Constitutional Monarchy. This doesn't have the effect of losing face with the other royalty of the Europe.

Your concessions with our Empire are reasonable. Of particular interest to me is point 2, of which I have my own suggestions. I suggest a restoration of the Byzantine Senate, but with elected officials. Serving for 6 years with the terms staggered so a 1/3 of the Senate is elected every 2 years. I do not believe that a sudden upheaval of gov. is best for the nation, but rather gradual changes is the best for stability.

The Countess of Florence
Post Script: My views of that of my own, and none elses.

"Your lack of knowledge continues to amaze me Don Fenix, any troops sent to Byzantium will be seen as an intervention by someone, I am certain. And you're believe that they will just listen to us? With us being the Empire. Men do not simply listen to what the Empire says? Why else is there crime, after all, we said it is illegal to do this and that. Your simple, idiotic belief that everyone will simply listen to your words and automatically do it is at times astounding. And then there is the matter of the Excerit we would send if, if we do what you said. There will be people still fighting, and simply ignoring what you say. I do have eperience with this. And the size of many of the armies is larger than the Excerit itself. We would be patrolling around an Empire with a revolutionary fervour against authority, with their revolutionary armies larger than our own."
"First, in case someone has not told you, the Phoenixes, after a roundabout tirade and degrading insults the likes of which ought not be spoken to a Christian, blocked me. So be it; I am surprised you did not know.

Second, these rebels are not some unstoppable force that does not need to listen to other powers. I know that if necessary, Hispanian steel can crush the rebels. However, it would be at the cost of Hispanian blood, so I wish it not. The rebels must know this too. Their incentive to accept is not only that it is the pious thing to do, for I fear these rebels see not the light of God, but that, if we send this ultimatum and they refuse, in the end their rebellion will be crushed. It is in everyone's best interests to end the fighting as soon as possible.

Third, if you say there will still be fanatics bearing arms and murdering, then why even go through the trouble of negotiating at all? You said they will ignore our words, and that the rebels will always attack authority. If true, then you sir have given a most compelling argument against non-intervention, and I hope for your sake that you are wrong, and that these rebels have an ounce of honor. Otherwise, diplomacy would be a waste of time, if, like you insinuate, these rebels cannot listen to words. For if so, then they can only listen to gunpowder, something we would rather not dispense."
 

Michaelangelo

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It is in the most interest of myself of the affairs of the Easterners. It is through many choices that has lead to this very moment, theses very years in fact. I understand your sentiments against your leader, very well in fact. But I do not wish for war, or a civil war to break out on ce more within the aegis of the Mediterrean. It is my wish, thusly, to negotiate for a possible compromise.

As to the first point, I do agree. After all, Byzantium is a 'protectorate' of the Hispanian Empire. I believe in a sort of 'dependent independence' of the Eastern Roman Empire. Dependent, as under the protection of the Hispania, but independent in its internal affairs. Speaking of which, in point 3, it is the request of your government that Hispania recognize your independence. A reclassification of our relationship into a 'protectorate' would as well agree to this point. Under the protection of Hispania, but independent as well. Point 2 is also agreeable, as the Byzantine state is independent.

But it is Point 5 of which I have troubles. I do not believe this is necessary. At least from an Italian's point of view, I do see any crimes the Basileus has committed. I believe a better solution is marginalizing the Basileus, as the 'head of state' while the Assembly or some other legislature serves as the true rulers of the country, under a Parliamentary, or Constitutional Monarchy. This doesn't have the effect of losing face with the other royalty of the Europe.

Your concessions with our Empire are reasonable. Of particular interest to me is point 2, of which I have my own suggestions. I suggest a restoration of the Byzantine Senate, but with elected officials. Serving for 6 years with the terms staggered so a 1/3 of the Senate is elected every 2 years. I do not believe that a sudden upheaval of gov. is best for the nation, but rather gradual changes is the best for stability.

The Countess of Florence
Post Script: My views of that of my own, and none elses.

We, the members of the Revolutionary Assembly, appreciate your attempts to negotiate a preferable settlement for future relations between our two peoples. If you truly desire for peace, we believe this may go quite smoothly, assuming you are willing to accept our ideals.

We must immediately refute your first argument. You speak of Byzantium as a vassal state. Perhaps the Basileus was happy to sell out his own nation to another, but the Greek people are not. "Protectorate" and "dependent independence" are just fancy terms for slaves and vassals. Byzantium does not need such protection, for we are not weak as we were centuries ago. Our people tire of fighting Hispania's wars without say. We recognize Hispania's contribution to our current strength, but we cannot accept anything less than recognition as equals. We will gladly stand side by side with your people as allies and friends, but never as inferiors again. We are the two inheritors of Rome and should stand together as two equal halves of a whole.

We do not fault you for failing to see the crimes the Basileus has committed. You did not have to live under his reign where farmers were treated worse than their livestock by their lieges, where no one but the nobility had a say in how the country was run. Attempts to reform the system were denied. However, your alternative does have some merit. Toppling a monarchy, no matter their faults, will have repercussions beyond our own borders. We are not completely against the continuation of the monarchy, but only if the monarch is constrained by Parliament. If Hispania believes a Parliamentary or Constitutional Monarchy may be preferable, we are willing to consider. However, current sentiment towards the Basileus is not good and it is unlikely his return to the throne will be taken very well by anyone in Byzantium, regardless of circumstances.

Your suggestions are noted. Of course the establishment of a more permanent government will take some time and must wait for things to calm down. They shall be further considered when the time is right.

The Greeks shall never be slaves!
 

Duke Dan `the Man`

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"First, in case someone has not told you, the Phoenixes, after a roundabout tirade and degrading insults the likes of which ought not be spoken to a Christian, blocked me. So be it; I am surprised you did not know.

Second, these rebels are not some unstoppable force that does not need to listen to other powers. I know that if necessary, Hispanian steel can crush the rebels. However, it would be at the cost of Hispanian blood, so I wish it not. The rebels must know this too. Their incentive to accept is not only that it is the pious thing to do, for I fear these rebels see not the light of God, but that, if we send this ultimatum and they refuse, in the end their rebellion will be crushed. It is in everyone's best interests to end the fighting as soon as possible.

Third, if you say there will still be fanatics bearing arms and murdering, then why even go through the trouble of negotiating at all? You said they will ignore our words, and that the rebels will always attack authority. If true, then you sir have given a most compelling argument against non-intervention, and I hope for your sake that you are wrong, and that these rebels have an ounce of honor. Otherwise, diplomacy would be a waste of time, if, like you insinuate, these rebels cannot listen to words. For if so, then they can only listen to gunpowder, something we would rather not dispense."

"Perhaps I did not, perhaps I did, perhaps it was simply a parody of the fact that one of the most outspoken members against the Phoenixes wanted to joined them? For what reason would you try to do so? I am legitimately curious.

But on another matter, they are not an unstoppable force, but they are still a threat. You underestimate the fervor some men have in their beliefs. Yet there are things I agree with you. We shouldn't shed the blood of our citizens if we don't have too." The Countess smiled "And you imply that rebels care about what is pious, yet that they don't see the light of God? And you stretch my words, Don. I never said that the revolutionaries will always reject authority, and that they will ignore our words. You think it is wise to force our way into everything. The revolutionaries, or at the least their assembly, will not ignore our words, but rather reply to them in a way they deem reasonable. They do listen to words, certainly. And maybe it is a waste of time. But it is not better than a waste of lives? I for one would choose the latter."