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Archaalen

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(sigh). I actually liked being able to choose whether or not to release Kazan and Astrakhan, and becoming Crimea was very useful, even though I much prefer the Golden Horde's flag.
 

unmerged(13006)

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Excuse me for bothering... but I'm sure - Russia became successful successors of Golden Horde posessions (I'm not sure if Russian Armies fought any Crimean or any other Khanates army for Orenburg or Emba region ;). Then I'd suggest to bind Russian "claim for steppes" event to rather simple trigger - owning Kazan & Astrakhan for Muscovy/Russia simultaneously.
By the way - Russia hadn't to get just shields on steppes. She just had to inherit all Golden Horde land with lock, stock & barrels with notable exception of Crimea Khanate territory. In other case you'd never get Russia advance into Siberian corridor at all ;)!

Sincerely yurs Bash.

P.S. Yep, try to just understand one simple truth - most strong, successful & "bad-ass" inheritant of Golden Horde was Muscovy Principality - not Kazan, Crimea & etc. If you'd see problem & Russian history from this angle - you'd realize very many reasons & complications of historical process in Eastern Europe ;).
P.P.S. (Edit) Ugh... I've used to post my messages in "Russia" & "Mongolia" thread then - I've already explained there - Descendants of Muscovy Prince Daniil Alexandrovich of Muscovy (XIII century) were direct descendants of Ghenghis Khan due to fact - wife of Daniil Alexandrovich & mother of first Great Prince of Muscovy Ivan Daniilovich I Kalita ("money-bag") was only daughter of Khan Berke (third son of Juchi - eldest son of Ghenghis himself) - then all Muscovy Princes after him had "more noble blood" then any other Horde Khans - except Khan Tohta descendants.
After wilting away Tohta bloodline (Esugey Khan in XV century) - Muscovy in its Russia incarnation claimed all steppe lands & this claim was reason for "River Ugra standing" in 1480 against Crimean Khan Akhmed.
Technically Muscovy/Russia inherited Golden Horde in this moment, but in reality this claim was argued by Khans of Kazan & Astrakhan & due to geographic placement of both khanates Muscovy/Russia sovereignity on eastern parts of Golden Horde lands was effectively nihil.
Then after breaking Kazan & Astrakhan resistance - all post-Golden Horde khanates yield to total serviency to Muscovy/Russian rule due to "Muscovy rulers blood-rights makes them elder Khans before all of us" in eyes of steppe inhabitants - not anything else :). (Enough blabbering - I've just repeating my own previous posts here ... :)
Do you see?
 
Last edited:

unmerged(12544)

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Garbon said:
Perhaps, as has long been suggested the trigger for the Russian Claim on the Steppes event should be changed?
I have made suggestions for that.
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2939758#post2939758

Garbon said:
The reason the events are setup this way is to avoid the possibility of a giant Crimea, as it is a bit off to have Crimea inherit all the Golden Horde's lands. So while this sequence isn't really working...
I will make a comprehensive proposal to make it more likely, that STE disappears.

The weak points in the present setup are:
-CRI must exist for the fall of STE, to inherit and to control Volgograd
-STE 287003, they can easily avoid this event via their countrysize

Suggestions:
STE 287002 trigger and content modified
STE 287003 trigger and content modified
CRI 152050 content modified

#####################
##Fall of the Horde##
#####################

event = {
id = 287002
trigger = {
exists = KAZ
exists = AST
NOT = { control = { province = 458 data = STE }}
}
random = no
country = STE
name = "The Collapse of the Golden Horde"
desc = "In 1502, Mengli Giray of Crimea captured and destroyed the city of Sarai capital of the Golden Horde. The last piece in its decline, the Golden Horde vanished as a political entity, with this act. Members of the Golden Horde still lived on hoping to rekindle lost glory, but the days of the Golden Horde were over."
style = 4
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1500 }
offset = 5
deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
action_a ={
name = "This is the end (Game Over)"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 446 } # Kazan
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 447 } # Tambow
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } # Ufa
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 454 } # Samara
command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 452 } # Saratow
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } # Uralsk
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 456 } # Orenburg
command = { type = independence which = CRI }
command = { type = trigger which = 152050 } #CRI
}
action_b ={
name = "We shall never give up!"
command = { type = stability value = -4 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } # Ufa
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } # Uralsk
command = { type = war which = KAZ }
command = { type = war which = AST }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 6 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
}
}

event = {
id = 287003
trigger = {
OR = {
NOT = { exists = KAZ }
NOT = { exists = AST }
}
NOT = { control = { province = 458 data = STE }}
NOT = { countrysize = 15 }
}
random = no
country = STE
name = "The Collapse of the Golden Horde"
desc = "In 1502, Mengli Giray of Crimea captured and destroyed the city of Sarai capital of the Golden Horde. The last piece in its decline, the Golden Horde vanished as a political entity, with this act. Members of the Golden Horde still lived on hoping to rekindle lost glory, but the days of the Golden Horde were over."
style = 4
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1500 }
offset = 5
deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
action_a ={
name = "This is the end (Game Over)"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = independence which = KAZ }
command = { type = independence which = AST }
command = { type = independence which = CRI }
command = { type = trigger which = 287004 } #STE
command = { type = trigger which = 152050 } #CRI
}
action_b ={
name = "We shall never give up!"
command = { type = stability value = -4 }
command = { type = independence which = KAZ }
command = { type = independence which = AST }
command = { type = independence which = CRI }
command = { type = trigger which = 287005 } #STE
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 6 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
}
}

I am aware, that Volgograd captured by RUS can trigger the event, this is intended. As long, as Volgograd is the capital of STE, it is not necessary to require, that they own it. In revolt.txt, they are not included, so when they do not own 458, they have disappeared forever. Maybe the countrysize trigger should be removed?

event = {
id = 152050
random = no
country = CRI
name = "The Golden Horde Vanishes"
desc = "In 1502, Mengli Giray of Crimea captured and destroyed the city of Sarai capital of the Golden Horde. The last piece in its decline, the Golden Horde vanished as a political entity, with this act. Members of the Golden Horde still lived on hoping to rekindle lost glory, but the days of the Golden Horde were over."
action_a ={
name = "Haha!"
command = { type = inherit which = STE }
command = { type = independence which = KAZ }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 446 } #Kazan
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 447 } #Tambow
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } #Ufa
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 454 } #Samara
command = { type = independence which = AST }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } #Uralsk
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 456 } #Orenburg
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 458 } #Volgograd
command = { type = secedeprovince which = LIT value = 462 } #Krementjug
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 296 } #Jedisan
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 464 } #Kaffa
command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 450 } #Belgorod
command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 452 } #Saratow
command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 460 } #Donetsk
command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 461 } #Poltava
command = { type = independence which = GEO }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = GEO value = 469 } #Sochi
command = { type = secedeprovince which = GEO value = 470 } #Georgia
}
}

The goal here is to reduce the size of CRI. Is it a problem, that KAZ, AST and GEO recreated are vassals of CRI? The independence command is for the case, that the event is triggered by STE 287003, here it is possible, that KAZ or AST do not exist.
 
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unmerged(6159)

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Panther II said:
I am aware, that Volgograd captured by RUS can trigger the event, this is intended. As long, as Volgograd is the capital of STE, it is not necessary to require, that they own it. In revolt.txt, they are not included, so when they do not own 458, they have disappeared forever. Maybe the countrysize trigger should be removed?

Have you tested that? My impression is that making a country disappear by event will cause a crash. However, that's just a guess.

Will 28702 be trigger by rebels capturing Volgograd?

The EEP troop granting events were in ther for just this reason - to ensure that newly independent CRI and AST could have enough of an army to be viable. Something along those lines ought to be added. I'd rather see events to make newly formed AST adn CRI grow rapidly and become much stronger than the Horde than to force them to disappear - I'm largely with Garbon philosophically, I'd rather not overscript things. Panther, your approach is pretty deterministic, but it seems reasonably flexible, so I won't complain too much.
 

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Isaac Brock said:
Have you tested that? My impression is that making a country disappear by event will cause a crash. However, that's just a guess.
I just wanted to explain, why
owned = { province = 458 data = -1 }
is not necessary in the triggers, when 458 is the capital.

Isaac Brock said:
Will 28702 be trigger by rebels capturing Volgograd?
When STE loses control of its capital 458 to anyone (e.g. rebels), the trigger condition is fullfilled.

Isaac Brock said:
Panther, your approach is pretty deterministic, but it seems reasonably flexible, so I won't complain too much.
STE can still survive, but chances are very low.
 
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Isaac Brock said:
Have you tested that? My impression is that making a country disappear by event will cause a crash. However, that's just a guess.

.

The crash will occur if the 'doomed' country is down to 1 province and a secedeprovince command is used. Making a country disappear using 'Independence' commands is entirely possible. The event, as written above, will most likely cause a ctd some of the time. ( As you can't predict which provinces GH will have 100% of the time ) That said, i do like it better than the current one, just needs to be tested :)
 
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unmerged(12544)

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My experience is, that
-secedeprovince, when a country does NOT own it or
-independence which = xxx, when country xxx already exists
causes no problem. Have you any examples with crashes?

What can still cause the whole thing to fail:
-STE never loses control of Volgograd 458 (highly unlikely)
-CRI can not be created via independence from STE, because STE does not own the necessary provinces (unlikely)
-e.g. KAZ does not exist and STE is at least 15 provinces big, then neither 287002, nor 287003 will fire (change trigger?[countrysize = 15]) (unlikely for the AI)
 
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Panther II said:
My experience is, that
-secedeprovince, when a country does NOT own it or
-independence which = xxx, when country xxx already exists
causes no problem. Have you any examples with crashes?

You're right, secedeprovince cause no problems if they don't own it...but if secedeprovince is used and that province happens to be their LAST province, the game will throw out a 'C++ Runtime Error'. Admittedly, the event had this problem before you ever messed with it, I was just noticing now. :p (Luckily this event rarely fired )

For example, if the GH only comprises of Ufa, Saratow, Samara and Uralsk after Astrakhan, Kazan, and Crimea revolt away. It's plausible..

Code:
event = {
id = 287002
trigger = {
exists = KAZ
exists = AST
NOT = { control = { province = 458 data = STE }}
}
random = no
country = STE
name = "The Collapse of the Golden Horde"
desc = "In 1502, ..."
style = 4
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1500 } 
offset = 5
deathdate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 } 
action_a ={ 
name = "This is the end (Game Over)"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 446 } # Kazan
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 447 } # Tambow
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } # Ufa
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 454 } # Samara
command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 452 } # Saratow
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } # Uralsk
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 456 } # Orenburg
command = { type = independence which = CRI }
command = { type = trigger which = 152050 } #CRI
}
action_b ={ 
name = "We shall never give up!"
command = { type = stability value = -4 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } # Ufa
command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } # Uralsk
command = { type = war which = KAZ }
command = { type = war which = AST }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 6 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
}
}

The 'a' choice on this event will crash the game because a country cannot secede more provinces than it has. ( or cannot secede ALL of it's provinces for that matter )
 

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In general your are right Khephren, ceding the only province to someone, is no good idea, but in the case of STE or your example, you are not. STE can not be recreated, because they are not included in "revolt.txt" ->to exist, they have to own Volgograd 458, their capital, so any STE example without that province is theoretic. As long as they do not cede Volgograd, there can be no crash, because they still have to own that province.
 
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Panther II said:
In general your are right Khephren, ceding the only province to someone, is no good idea, but in the case of STE or your example, you are not. STE can not be recreated, because they are not included in "revolt.txt" ->to exist, they have to own Volgograd 458, their capital, so any STE example without that province is theoretic. As long as they do not cede Volgograd, there can be no crash, because they still have to own that province.

I see what you're saying, but Volgograd is an extra for Astrakhan, so Astrakhan can ( and i have seen this ) pick up Vologograd when it revolts and this will move the GH's capital.
 

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I really prefered the EEP way of handling this. Just grant the damn things independence by event. I'm tired of seeing Crimea appear in Kuban, Astrkhan never appearing, etc.
 

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Khephren said:
I see what you're saying, but Volgograd is an extra for Astrakhan, so Astrakhan can ( and i have seen this ) pick up Vologograd when it revolts and this will move the GH's capital.

The event itself can also kick the Horde's capital into some other random province that they have picked up - Moscow, Poltava, or Orenburg. I suppose this isn't too bad, but the inherit command is less likely to cause bizarre results.
 

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Khephren said:
I see what you're saying, but Volgograd is an extra for Astrakhan, so Astrakhan can ( and i have seen this ) pick up Vologograd when it revolts and this will move the GH's capital.
You are right, I have seen this too for Switzerland, the Huguenots revolted from them in Bern and the Swiss capital was moved to Schwyz. I think we have to find a good balance between a slim event structure and a low risk level for ctds. We can remove the secedeprovince commands from 287002a, because all are included in the CRI event?
 
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lose your capital to ANYONE? ooh, that's tough as the GH sometimes. I've had rebels take my capital three times in fifty years of a game before as GH.
 
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lose your capital to ANYONE? ooh, that's tough as the GH sometimes. I've had rebels take my capital three times in fifty years of a game before as GH.

GH is not a cool nation. I played it and GEORGIA kicked my ass! :mad:
 

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they're really not supposed to survive long, but it does get a little ridiculous at times how badly the GH can get kicked around.
 

Garbon

Sultan d'Afrique
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Feb 1, 2002
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Reaching back in time (as I only just noticed it :eek:o)

Why were these triggers added to this event?

Code:
event = {
	id = 287001
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			flag = Sibir
			exists = AST # alternate trigger
		}
		OR = {
			exists = SIB
			owned = { province = 1573 data = -1}
			owned = { province = 510 data = -1}
			owned = { province = 511 data = -1}
			owned = { province = 512 data = -1}
			owned = { province = 578 data = -1}
			owned = { province = 1570 data = -1}
			owned = { province = 1571 data = -1}
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = STE
	name = "The Khanate of Sibir"
	desc = "Following the disintegration of the Horde, descendents of One Khan formed the Khanate of Sibir, near the modern day city of Tyumen.  They quickly established their domain which existed from Kurgan in the West, to Ichim in the East. This khanate would survive well into the 16th century until it was extinguished by cossacks from Russia."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1450 }
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1480 }
	action_a ={
		name = "And so we lose all remainders of the White Horde"
		command = { type = independence which = SIB}					
		command = { type = breakvassal which = SIB } 

		command = { type = dynastic which = SIB }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SIB value = 1570 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SIB value = 511 } 
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = SIB value = 510 }  
		command = { type = relation which = SIB value = -50 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 325008 } #UZB
		}
}

The formation of Sibir shouldn't rest on whether or not Astrakhan exists or this Sibir flag (which doesn't get set till 1466 - the date that Astrakhan broke free). Sibir's historical ascendance was in 1450, which the current setup will only reflect in the bizarre occurrence that Astrakhan revolts before this event. (Highly unlikely as Astrakhan can first revolt free in 1449). If anything, this event should hinge on the Uzbeks having had their independence event.