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Garbon

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Norrefeldt said:
Do you mean that the triggers have been changed? I remember thie event was brought up before, but not where that was.

Yea, I meant to highlight the added triggers :eek:o

When I made this event, it didn't have the following lines that prevent it from firing in 1450.

Code:
		OR = {
			flag = Sibir
			exists = AST # alternate trigger
		}
 

Norrefeldt

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I found that you had brought it up in January this year, that's probably why I remember it. I thought it had to do with some messy Astrakhan events that were bugfixed some time ago. Or is this part of the same mess?
I suggest you just post the fix in the bug thread, since no-one has given you an answer.
 

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Norrefeldt said:
I found that you had brought it up in January this year, that's probably why I remember it.

Oh, now thats definitely embarrassing on my part. I guess that just goes to show that I had a problem with it. ;)

Norrefeldt said:
I thought it had to do with some messy Astrakhan events that were bugfixed some time ago. Or is this part of the same mess?
I suggest you just post the fix in the bug thread, since no-one has given you an answer.

Yea, I think that it probably was a result of that fixing, however this new trigger isn't helping matters. I'll go ahead and post it as a bug.
 

zdlugasz

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EDIT: The last event was also covered in other post, but here "removecore" on previously added Volgograd was added

As noted before cesation and independece in one event does not work


A lot of my ideas were posted in Central Asia and Early Ottomans thread, but since this is correct place I will continue here.

Changes of existing events: addition and removal of core for Crimea (to give CB against Golden Horde) plus additional comments

#move event 287026 from Golden Horde to Crimea file

#trigger in Golden Horde 287003 seems to be wrong - if KAZ or AST does not exist it means that we are probably waiting for is Russia destroying Kazan completely (ahistorical) and CRI will inherit way too much (Ufa/Samara or Uralsk/Orenburg if it was AST destroyed) - historically both AST and KAZ should exist, but accidents happen and it seems to me that trigger should be changed to as below:


Code:
event = {
	id = 287003
	trigger = {
		[COLOR=Yellow]OR = {
			exists = KAZ
			exists = AST
		} [/COLOR]
		NOT = { control = { province = 458 data = STE } }
		NOT = { countrysize = 15 }
	}
	random = no
	country = STE
	name = "EVENTNAME287003" #The Collapse of the Golden Horde
	desc = "EVENTHIST287003"
	#-#In 1502, Mengli Giray of Crimea captured and destroyed the city of Sarai capital of the Golden Horde. The last piece in its decline, the Golden Horde vanished as a political entity, with this act. Members of the Golden Horde still lived on hoping to rekindle lost glory, but the days of the Golden Horde were over.

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1500 }
	offset = 5
	deathdate = { year = 1820 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME287003A" #This is the end (End Game)
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = independence which = KAZ }
		command = { type = independence which = AST }
		command = { type = independence which = CRI }
		command = { type = trigger which = 287004 } #STE: The Demise of the Golden Horde
		command = { type = trigger which = 152050 } #CRI: The Golden Horde Vanishes
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME287003B" #We shall never give up!
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = independence which = KAZ }
		command = { type = independence which = AST }
		command = { type = independence which = CRI }
		command = { type = trigger which = 287005 } #STE: The Demise of the Golden Horde
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 6 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 5000 }
	}
}




#Cessation of Crimea#
event = {
	id = 40063
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME40063" #Cessation of Crimea
	desc = "EVENTHIST40063"
	#-#Shortly after Khan Ahmad expelled Ulugh Muhammad from Sarai, his son Hajji Giray declared his independence in Crimea. This started the great rivalry between 2 countries which lasted until the complete destruction of Golden Horde by Girays in 1502.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME40063A" #We owe a debt of gratitude to Ulugh...not!
		command = { type = breakvassal which = STE }
		command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = relation which = STE value = -350 }
		command = { type = relation which = MOS value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = KAZ value = -25 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = 75 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = 100 }
		command = { type = relation which = LIT value = 100 }
		#command = { type = AI which = "crimea.ai" }
		[COLOR=Red]command = { type = addcore which = 464 } #Kaffa[/COLOR]
		[COLOR=Yellow]command = { type = addcore which = 458 } #Volgograd, to give CB against STE[/COLOR]
	}
}

event = {
	id = 152050
	random = no
	country = CRI
	name = "EVENTNAME152050" #The Golden Horde Vanishes
	desc = "EVENTHIST152050"
	#-#In 1502, Mengli Giray of Crimea captured and destroyed the city of Sarai capital of the Golden Horde. The last piece in its decline, the Golden Horde vanished as a political entity, with this act. Members of the Golden Horde still lived on hoping to rekindle lost glory, but the days of the Golden Horde were over.

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME152050A" #Haha!
		command = { type = inherit which = STE }
		command = { type = independence which = KAZ }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 446 } #Kazan
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 447 } #Tambow
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 453 } #Ufa
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = KAZ value = 454 } #Samara
		command = { type = independence which = AST }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 455 } #Uralsk
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 456 } #Orenburg
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = 458 } #Volgograd
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = LIT value = 462 } #Krementjug
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 296 } #Jedisan
		[COLOR=Red]command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 464 } #Kaffa[/COLOR]
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 450 } #Belgorod
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 452 } #Saratow
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = RUS value = 460 } #Donetsk
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = [COLOR=Yellow]LIT[/COLOR] value = 461 } #Poltava
		command = { type = independence which = GEO }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = GEO value = 469 } #Abkhazia
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = GEO value = 470 } #Kolkhis
		[COLOR=Yellow]command = { type = removecore which = 458 } #Volgograd[/COLOR]
	}
}

Edit: as it was discussed in Central Asia thread: remove Crimean cores on Kaffa and Kerch (second one in revolt.txt) and do not secede these provinces to Ottomans
 
Last edited:

zdlugasz

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Problem of Jedysan, Crimea and Kaffa/Kerch

1) Jedysan belongs to Ottoman Empire, but IMO should not get turkish culture in 1520 and even later; Ottomans ruled this area, had fortress (Oczakow) later more fortifications, but they did not colonize area. It was still inhabited by Tatars (and very sparcely, since nomad Tatars fought with Cossacks)

2) Problem of Kerch and Kaffa - Ottoman Empire owned southern strips of Crimean Penninsula and Black See coast; however in 1783 Russia is supposed to conquer the whole Crimea with Black See coast (meaning Kaffa and Kerch)

My proposal: secede Kaffa and Kerch to Crimea, so Russia have chance to win it (not fighting on the other side of Caucasus); however maybe Russian AI would defeat Ottomans

3) Crimea is supposed to lose Kouban and Kalmuk between 1645 and 1725 (I will try to find exact date), but Russia gets cores earlier so it is not a problem, in 1725 Ottomans still owned Kaffa and coast (in game Kerch); the question is: maybe we should give e.g. Kerch back to Crimea to strengthen it when it loses Kouban?

Russia captured Jedysan in 1792, and Azov (permanently in 1774)

Anyway in Napoleonic times Kaffa, Kerch, Jedysan and Budjak (if it represents Besarabia) were in Russian hands.

I checked Russian cores and:

Russia gets cores on Jedysan, Azov, Crimea, Kerch etc in an event tiggered by Polish event. Cores on Poland should depend on Polish actions, however cores outside Poland should not (what if Poland does not exist, or chosen ahistorical path - does it mean that war between Russia, Turkey and Sweden (1788-90) can not happen?
 

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Kalmyks

from vikipedia:

IMO, it says (among other things) that we have completely false vision of history in area of lower Volga.

The ancestors of the Kalmyks, the Oirats, migrated from the steppes of southern Siberia on the banks of the Irtysh River to the Lower Volga region. Various reasons have been given for the move, but the generally accepted answer is that the Kalmyks sought abundant pastures for their herds. They reached the lower Volga region in or about 1630. That land, however, was not uncontested pastures but was rather the homeland of the Nogai Horde, a confederation of Turkic-speaking nomadic tribes. The Kalmyks expelled the Nogais who fled to the Caucasian plains and to the Crimean Khanate, areas under the control of the Ottoman Empire. Some Nogai groups sought the protection of the Russian garrison at Astrakhan. The remaining nomadic Turkic tribes became vassals of Kalmyk Khan.

The Kalmyks settled in the wide open steppes from Saratov in the north to Astrakhan on the Volga delta in the south and to the Terek River in the southwest. They also encamped on both sides of the Volga River, from the Don River in the west to the Ural River in the east. Although these territories were recently annexed by Russia, it was in no position to settle the area with Russian colonists. This area under Kalmyk control would eventually be called the Kalmyk Khanate.

Within 25 years of settling in the lower Volga region, the Kalmyks became subjects of the Tsar. In exchange for protecting Russia’s southern border, the Kalmyks were promised an annual allowance and access to the markets of Russian border settlements. The open access to Russian markets was supposed to discourage mutual raiding on the part of the Kalmyks and of the Russians and Bashkirs, a Russian-dominated Turkic tribe, but this was not often the practice. In addition, Kalmyk allegiance was often nominal, as the Kalmyk Khans practiced self-government, based on a set of laws they called the Great Code of the Nomads (Iki Tsaadzhin Bichig).

The Kalmyk Khanate reached its peak of military and political power under Ayuka Khan (1669 -1724). During his era, the Kalmyk Khanate fulfilled its responsibility to protect the southern borders of Russia and conducted many military expeditions against its Turkic-speaking neighbors. Successful military expeditions were also conducted in the Caucasus. The Khanate experienced economic prosperity from free trade with Russian border towns, China, Tibet and with their Muslim neighbors. During this era, the Kalmyks also kept close contacts with their Oirat kinsmen in Dzungaria as well as the Dalai Lama in Tibet.
[edit]

Imposition of Russian Rule

Towards the end of the Ayuka Khan era, the Tsarist government implemented policies that gradually chipped away at the autonomy of the Kalmyk Khanate. These policies, for instance, encouraged the establishment of Russian and German settlements on pastures the Kalmyks roamed in the lower Volga region. The settlers stole Kalmyk livestock and, in some cases, forced Kalmyks into servitude. The Russian Orthodox church, by contrast, pressured many Kalmyks to adopt Orthodoxy. The Tsarist government imposed a council on the Kalmyk Khan, diluting his authority, while continuing to expect the Kalmyk Khan to provide cavalry units to fight on behalf of Russia. By the mid-17th century, they Kalmyks were increasingly disillusioned with Russian encroachment and interference in its internal affairs.

Ubashi Khan, the great-grandson Ayuka Khan and the last Kalmyk Khan, decided to return his people to their ancestral homeland, Dzungaria. Under his leadership, approximately 200,000 Kalmyks migrated directly across the Central Asian desert. Along the way, many Kalmyks were killed in ambushes or captured and enslaved by their Kazakh and Kyrgyz enemies. Many also died of starvation or thirst. After several grueling months of travel, only 96,000 Kalmyks reached the Manchu Empire's western outposts Xinjiang near the Balkhash Lake.

After failing to stop the flight, Catherine the Great abolished the Kalmyk Khanate, transferring all governmental powers to the Governor of Astrakhan.


EDIT: I have seen that Oirats have reserved tag PRT, what are plans regarding Oirat's country?
However, without second access to Siberia Kalmuks would block Russian expansion (not mentioning that in 1648 screnario these tarrains and other (ahistorically, since were not controlled by Russia) are firmly inside Russian Empire.
 
Last edited:

Khephren

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zdlugasz said:
from vikipedia:

IMO, it says (among other things) that we have completely false vision of history in area of lower Volga.




EDIT: I have seen that Oirats have reserved tag PRT, what are plans regarding Oirat's country?
However, without second access to Siberia Kalmuks would block Russian expansion (not mentioning that in 1648 screnario these tarrains and other (ahistorically, since were not controlled by Russia) are firmly inside Russian Empire.


Kalmyk Khanate and Oirats are two distinctly seperate entities. I doubt ( unless more tags become available ) that Kalmykia will even be modeled except maybe through events
 

zdlugasz

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Khephren said:
Kalmyk Khanate and Oirats are two distinctly seperate entities. I doubt ( unless more tags become available ) that Kalmykia will even be modeled except maybe through events

Yep, you are right, however I was wondering what time-frame Oirats have. If they destined to die earlier, maybe tag could be reused: like Ducal prussia formed form Teuonic order and Kingdom of Prussia fromed from Brandenburg.

Right now they would just block Russian's expansion,
I do not know how does new map look like (area between Capsian See, Ob valley and Volga), maybe there will be place there?
 

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I'm all about representing states, but I don't think it would be worthwhile to represent the Kalmyk khanate. They sound like a largely do nothing state (game-wise) that was eventually absorbed by Russia. Add that to the fact that they don't appear until the 17th century and I don't see that they'd be good for inclusion.
 

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Garbon said:
I'm all about representing states, but I don't think it would be worthwhile to represent the Kalmyk khanate. They sound like a largely do nothing state (game-wise) that was eventually absorbed by Russia. Add that to the fact that they don't appear until the 17th century and I don't see that they'd be good for inclusion.

What does Ukraine do? Except of taking Russian provinces and using one TAG?
Gamewise nothing: hinfrancde for Russia, historywise nothing: and except of uprisings they did nothing. And revolts and uprisings (against Poland and Russia) can be solved by events for Poland and Russia.
In real history Ukraine was independent 6 years - uprising started in 1648 (btw. all dates dealing with Ukraine and polish events of kHmenitsky uprising have wrong dates), in 1653 Russia decided that will support Ukraine and in 1654 Cossacks forced their leaders signing Periaslav agreement, which in fact incorporated them into Russia with autonomy, which was decreased every time. There was no chance for independent Ukraine, only for autonomy inside Russia or Poland. Initial successes Cossacks obtained with help of Crimean Khanate (which wanted to weaken Poland and had free raids/slaves etc). When Khmelnytsky was too strong in 1649 Tatars joined Polish forces, later allied with Cossacks again. When Russia decided to join conflict (seeing weakend Poland) it was not war about independent Ukraine but to expand Russian Empire.
After 1654 Ukraine did not have own internal/external policy etc. they had autonomy and relvots and uprisings. Poland did not secede eastern Ukraine to Ukrainian state in 1667, but to Russia.
Regardless criteria, Kalmyk Khanate had more attributes of state, even vassal state. I have seen that you desperatly will need more tags - that is one more: UKR.


Khmelnytsky uprising can be modeled by revolts and secession of provinces on the other side of Dniepr to Russia (and giving Russia cores); ukrainian culture is OK, since it limits Polish and Lithuanian income (and for Russia it is indifferent).

Before end of war with Russia in 1667 Poland had chance to reconquer areas on the other side of Dniepr, but failed, peacefull solution like option B in Periaslav agreement is alt-history (it was too late after 1648, probably after 1638 as well). Some Poles and Cossacks aimed toward it, but it was too late; others like Khmelnitsky wanted to keep their independence, but majority of Cossacks wanted alliance with Russia, and Cossacks were more anarchist than Polish nobility, it was populist "democracy" in modern terms with AK-47 in every hand. Leaders which did not "fit" were executed or banished (in earlier more peaceful times)
So Russia gave its terms and Cossacks' leaders had to agree, because would die from hands of their followers (it happened often, e.g. leader of pro-Polish minority died very painfully). And Russian protection meant that Russia de facto governed Ukraine giving Cossacks autonomy. This relationship does not meet standards for vassalization, it is annexation with troublesome subjects revolting frome time to time.
 

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Garbon said:
I'm all about representing states, but I don't think it would be worthwhile to represent the Kalmyk khanate. They sound like a largely do nothing state (game-wise) that was eventually absorbed by Russia. Add that to the fact that they don't appear until the 17th century and I don't see that they'd be good for inclusion.
I agree that this is marginal for meriting another tag. Moreover, on the current map they would potentially get in the way of Russian expansion. However, on the new map, a vassal state in this spot may serve its historical purpose - protecting Russia's southern border and keeping it out of useless conflicts in central Asia.

Astrakhan will be long gone by this time, or they must be if the sequence is to make sense. We could recycle the Astrakhan tag here, with appropriate flag/religion/culture changes. Here's a stab at it:
Code:
#Formation of the Kalmyk Khanate#
event = {
	id = Kalm1
	random = no
	country = RUS
	name = "Formation of the Kalmyk Khanate"
	desc = "The Kalmyks were an Oriat tribe that migrated to the lower Volga region sometime around 1630.  They secured their their position by expelling the majority of the native inhabitants, the Nogai.  Within 25 years of settling in the lower Volga region, the Kalmyks became subjects of the Tsar, protecting Russia's southern border.  In practice, Kalmyk allegiance was often nominal, and they practiced self-governance."

	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 467 data = -1 }
		NOT = {	exists = AST }
	}

	date = { year = 1630 }
	offset = 500
	deathdate = { year = 1680 }

	action_a ={
		name = "Let the Kalmyks protect our southern border."	
		command = { type = independence which = AST }		
		command = { type = removecore which = 467 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = XXX } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan	
		command = { type = removecore which = -3 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = AST value = YYY } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan
		command = { type = removecore which = -3 }
		}
	action_b ={
		name = "Force these new settlers into submission."	
		command = { type = revolt which = 467 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -3 }
		command = { type = revolt which = XXX } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan
		command = { type = revolt which = YYY } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan
		}
}


#Formation of the Kalmyk Khanate#
event = {

	id = Kalm2
	random = no
	country = AST
	name = "Formation of the Kalmyk Khanate"
	desc = "The Kalmyks were an Oriat tribe that migrated to the lower Volga region sometime around 1630.  They secured their their position by expelling the majority of the native inhabitants, the Nogai.  Within 25 years of settling in the lower Volga region, the Kalmyks became subjects of the Tsar, protecting Russia's southern border.  In practice, Kalmyk allegiance was often nominal, and they practiced self-governance."
	date = { year = 1630 } 
	deathdate = { year = 1700 }
	trigger = {
		event = Kalm1
	}
	action_a ={
		name = "This is our land now."	
                # flag change
                # shield change
	        command = { type = religion   which =  buddhism }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = canary }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = mongol }
	        command = { type = provincereligion which = -2 value = buddhism }
		command = { type = provinceculture which = -3 value = mongol }
		command = { type = provinceculture which = XXX value = mongol } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan
	        command = { type = provincereligion which = -3 value = buddhism } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan
		command = { type = provinceculture which = YYY value = mongol } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan
	        command = { type = provincereligion which = -3 value = buddhism } # provinces to SE of Astrakhan
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 3 }
		command = { type = domestic which = mercantilism value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 4 }
		command = { type = domestic which = land value = 4 }
		command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = -3 }
		command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = relation which = UZB value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = CRI value = -50 }
		}
}

#Absorbtion of the Kalmyk Khanate#
event = {

	id = Kalm3
	random = no
	country = RUS
	name = "Absorbtion of the Kalmyk Khanate"
	desc = "the Tsarist government implemented policies that gradually chipped away at the autonomy of the Kalmyk Khanate. These policies, for instance, encouraged the establishment of Russian and German settlements on pastures the Kalmyks roamed in the lower Volga region. The Russian Orthodox church also pressured many Kalmyks to adopt Orthodoxy.

The last Kalmyk Khan decided to return his people to their ancestral homeland, Dzungaria. Under his leadership, approximately 200,000 Kalmyks migrated directly across the Central Asian desert.  After failing to stop the flight, Catherine the Great abolished the Kalmyk Khanate, transferring all governmental powers to the Governor of Astrakhan."

	date = { year = 1740 }
	offset = 500
	deathdate = { year = 1819 }

	trigger = {
		event = Kalm2
		vassal = { country = RUS country = AST }
	}
	action_a ={
		name = "Allow the Kalmyks to depart and impose direct Russian rule."	
		command = { type = inherit which = AST }
	        command = { type = provinceculture which = 467 value = russian }	
	        command = { type = provincereligion which = -3 value = orthodox }
		command = { type = population  which = -3 value = -10000 }
		command = { type = addcore which = -3 }
	        command = { type = provinceculture which = XXX value = canary }
	        command = { type = provincereligion which = -3 value = sunni }
		command = { type = population  which = -3 value = -5000 }
		command = { type = addcore which = -3 }
	        command = { type = provinceculture which = YYY value = canary }
	        command = { type = provincereligion which = -3 value = sunni }
		command = { type = population  which = -3 value = -5000 }
		command = { type = addcore which = -3 }
		command = { type = trigger which = Kalm4 }
		}
	action_b ={
		name = "Make concessions to the Kalmyks and allow them to continue self-rule."	
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
		command = { type = relation which = AST value = 150 }
		}
}

#Resettlement of Kalmyks
event = {

	id = Kalm4
	random = no
    	province = ZZZ #Lake Balkash region
	name = "Resettlement of the Kalmyks"
	desc = "After a grueling trek from the lower Volga region, about 96,000 Kalmyks settled in the Manchu Empire's western outposts in Xinjiang near the Balkhash Lake during the late 18th century."

	action_a ={
		name = "Accept these new subjects"
		command = { type = population  which = ZZZ value = 9600 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = -3 value = 2 }
	        command = { type = provincereligion which = -3 value = buddhism }
		command = { type = provinceculture which = -3 value = mongol }
		}
	action_b ={
		name = "Drive off these intruders"	
		command = { type = revolt which = ZZZ }
		command = { type = revolt which = -3 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -3 }
		}
}

#Ahistorical event for restoration of Russian claims
event = {
	id = Kalm5
	random = no
	country = RUS
	name = "Russian claims in Kalmyk region"
	desc = "Now that the southern border of the Russian empire is no longer protected by a subservient Kalmyk state, Russia seeks to assert direct control of the region."

	trigger = {
		event = Kalm1
		NOT = {
			event = Kalm3
			core = { province = 467 data = -1 }
			vassal = { country = RUS country = AST }
		}
	}

	date = { year = 1630 }
	offset = 500
	deathdate = { year = 1819 }

	action_a ={
		name = "we shall protect our southern border."	
		command = { type = addcore which = 467 }
		command = { type = addcore which = XXX }
		command = { type = addcore which = YYY }
		}
}
Note that Kalm2 will fire the first time Astrakhan becomes independent after Kalm1 has fired.
 
Last edited:

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doktarr said:
I agree that this is marginal for meriting another tag. Moreover, on the current map they would potentially get in the way of Russian expansion. However, on the new map, a vassal state in this spot may serve its historical purpose - protecting Russia's southern border and keeping it out of useless conflicts in central Asia.

I'd rather use up a tag for that ~120 years. We've come a long way in not representing RoTW states as massive ahistorical conglomerates. I would rather not turn the clock backwards and represent to very different states with the same tag.

FWIW, I checked the AGC as I know they had wanted to add it once. They eventually decided not to include it because of tag constraints. Thus it is totally viable as a nation, just do we want it?
 

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zdlugasz said:
What does Ukraine do? Except of taking Russian provinces and using one TAG?
Gamewise nothing: hinfrancde for Russia, historywise nothing: and except of uprisings they did nothing. And revolts and uprisings (against Poland and Russia) can be solved by events for Poland and Russia.
In real history Ukraine was independent 6 years - uprising started in 1648 (btw. all dates dealing with Ukraine and polish events of kHmenitsky uprising have wrong dates), in 1653 Russia decided that will support Ukraine and in 1654 Cossacks forced their leaders signing Periaslav agreement, which in fact incorporated them into Russia with autonomy, which was decreased every time. There was no chance for independent Ukraine, only for autonomy inside Russia or Poland. Initial successes Cossacks obtained with help of Crimean Khanate (which wanted to weaken Poland and had free raids/slaves etc). When Khmelnytsky was too strong in 1649 Tatars joined Polish forces, later allied with Cossacks again. When Russia decided to join conflict (seeing weakend Poland) it was not war about independent Ukraine but to expand Russian Empire.
After 1654 Ukraine did not have own internal/external policy etc. they had autonomy and relvots and uprisings. Poland did not secede eastern Ukraine to Ukrainian state in 1667, but to Russia.
Regardless criteria, Kalmyk Khanate had more attributes of state, even vassal state. I have seen that you desperatly will need more tags - that is one more: UKR.


Khmelnytsky uprising can be modeled by revolts and secession of provinces on the other side of Dniepr to Russia (and giving Russia cores); ukrainian culture is OK, since it limits Polish and Lithuanian income (and for Russia it is indifferent).

Before end of war with Russia in 1667 Poland had chance to reconquer areas on the other side of Dniepr, but failed, peacefull solution like option B in Periaslav agreement is alt-history (it was too late after 1648, probably after 1638 as well). Some Poles and Cossacks aimed toward it, but it was too late; others like Khmelnitsky wanted to keep their independence, but majority of Cossacks wanted alliance with Russia, and Cossacks were more anarchist than Polish nobility, it was populist "democracy" in modern terms with AK-47 in every hand. Leaders which did not "fit" were executed or banished (in earlier more peaceful times)
So Russia gave its terms and Cossacks' leaders had to agree, because would die from hands of their followers (it happened often, e.g. leader of pro-Polish minority died very painfully). And Russian protection meant that Russia de facto governed Ukraine giving Cossacks autonomy. This relationship does not meet standards for vassalization, it is annexation with troublesome subjects revolting frome time to time.
For how long did the Ukrainians revolt? Was there a graudual decrease in the frequency? Would cores suffice, or might it merit a different culture instead?
 

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a nogai issue

So we all know that quite a long time ago, the decision was reached to get rid of the Nogai Horde on the claim that it was not actually a state. Well I'm now starting to think that we actually axed in a flurry to find new tags (back before we really had any extras).

The argument has been that the Nogai Horde was simply a tribal state that ran around the region. As far as I can tell this is accurate to the extent that the Nogai existed as different entities. The "Greater Nogai Horde" had a capital on the eastern side of the Volga and participated in various wars in the region. There were also the lesser elements that traveled to Astrakhan and Sibir. Later all of the Nogais were expelled from their state by encroachments on the part of the Kazakhs and later total expulsion by the Russians.

Based on descriptions of their territories, they'd deserve Alga(515), and Emba (519); gaining Orenburg(456) and Irgiz(514) at the same time that Sibir expands. They'd start as vassals of the Golden Horde.

The NOGAI The Nogai people are related to the famous Nogai Horde of the 13th and 14th centuries, though they contain large admixtures of Cuman blood. The Nogai Khanate had taken its name from Nogai (died in 1299) one of the great commanders of the early Golden Horde (1223-1502) and his khanate was founded following the collapse of the Golden Horde. The Khanate included the regions extending from the Volga to the Irtish Rivers and from the Caspian Sea towards to the Aral. Its capital was Saraycik, located at the mouth of Yayik River. Most of its people were Turkic tribes connected to Cumans (Kipchak), similar to the Kazan, Crimean, Astrakhan and Sibir Khanates. Among these tribes, the Mangit people, regarded as Mongolians that had become Turkified, held a privileged position. After the submission of the Kazan and Astrakhan Khanates to Russia (1552-1557), the Nogai Khanate fragmented into several septs. Those in the north of the Caucasus were referred to as the "Küçük Orda" (Lesser Horde), and those within the environs of Emba Lake were called the "Altiul Orda". Those that remained under the domination of Ismail Khan were united under the collective name of Greater Nogai Horde, and they recognised the domination of Ivan IV (1555-1557). Until the first half of the 17th century a number of Nogai tribes were nomadic on the steppes between the Danube and the Caspian. As indicated above, originally Mongol, the Nogai language is now a Turkic dialect of the Cuman group. The invasion of the Kalmucks forced several of the Nogai tribes to leave the steppes and withdraw to the foothills of the North Caucasus. In the Moscow chronicles from the 16th and 17th centuries there are several references to them, including the two Nogai Hordes, the Great and the Small. The former roamed beyond the River Volga, the latter somewhat to the west. Both had numerous military encounters with the Russians. In the 17th century some of the Nogai chiefs entered into an alliance with Moscow and fought at times together with the Russians against the Kabardians, the Kalmucks and peoples of Dagestan. Since the early 19th century the majority of the Nogai have settled in North Caucasia..
link


The Nogais originate from ancient Turkic tribes of West Siberia, Northwestern Mongolia and Central Asia. In contrast to Chechens, Nogais can be proud of their former statehood. The Nogai Horde was a state of nomads that separated from the Golden Horde and occupied the vast area from the northern Caspian region and the Urals along the Kama River, and from the Volga to the Irtysh River. In the latter half of the 16th century, the Nogai Horde disintegrated and, from the latter half of the 18th century, the Nogais became the object of Russo-Turkish rivalry and lost all vestiges of their former statehood and independence.
link


I'm not really sure how it could be considered less of state than the NA tribes, simply because it traveled around it its territory.
 

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Garbon said:
I'd rather use up a tag for that ~120 years. We've come a long way in not representing RoTW states as massive ahistorical conglomerates. I would rather not turn the clock backwards and represent to very different states with the same tag.
I don't see this as a step backward in that sense. Astrakhan is more or less a geographic term - it's not absurd to use it to represent the Kalmyk state. Moreover, the entire event sequence doesn't make sense unless Russia owns the area, so there's no potential for both "Astrakhans" to need to exist at once. And in fact it would not make sense for the old Astrakhan to revolt out from under the Kalmyk. To me, this is just a sensible tag-efficient approach.

Garbon said:
FWIW, I checked the AGC as I know they had wanted to add it once. They eventually decided not to include it because of tag constraints. Thus it is totally viable as a nation, just do we want it?
The sequence I wrote seems good to me, although we should probably wait for the new map so that there's not a risk of the Kalmyk state blocking Russian colonization.

I'm editing the sequence I wrote to remove Russian cores for the duration of the vassalage, so that relations can remain good.
 

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doktarr said:
I don't see this as a step backward in that sense. Astrakhan is more or less a geographic term - it's not absurd to use it to represent the Kalmyk state. Moreover, the entire event sequence doesn't make sense unless Russia owns the area, so there's no potential for both "Astrakhans" to need to exist at once. And in fact it would not make sense for the old Astrakhan to revolt out from under the Kalmyk. To me, this is just a sensible tag-efficient approach.

I disagree, Astrakhan refers specifically to that state. As you can see Kalmuck/Kalmyk is a distinct province in the game. While the two aren't supposed to exist at the same time, it is a gross collusion that could be confusing. edit: Kalmyk controlled only a portion of the eastern part of the Astrakhan province.

doktarr said:
The sequence I wrote seems good to me, although we should probably wait for the new map so that there's not a risk of the Kalmyk state blocking Russian colonization.

Frankly, I don't think this is a concern at all. Russia can't historically do what it did on the current map (i.e. go over the Hordes as opposed to taking them all out first.) Thus, I don't we really need to worry about states that are hindrances to Russian expansion. It is not working regardless.
 
Last edited:

zdlugasz

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doktarr said:
I agree that this is marginal for meriting another tag. Moreover, on the current map they would potentially get in the way of Russian expansion. However, on the new map, a vassal state in this spot may serve its historical purpose - protecting Russia's southern border and keeping it out of useless conflicts in central Asia.

Astrakhan will be long gone by this time, or they must be if the sequence is to make sense. We could recycle the Astrakhan tag here, with appropriate flag/religion/culture changes. Here's a stab at it:
...
Note that Kalm2 will fire the first time Astrakhan becomes independent after Kalm1 has fired.

Secede and independence in one event does not work. It should be modified like e.g. Golden Horde events.
 

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ribbon22 said:
For how long did the Ukrainians revolt? Was there a graudual decrease in the frequency? Would cores suffice, or might it merit a different culture instead?

Different culture has merit because it limits Lithuanian and Polish income, and Poland was declining.

Regarding Ukrainian revolts: I am sure that some/many will disagree, for sure Ukrainians can

-there were no Ukrainians in modern sense, and it were not Ukrainian revolts but Cossacks' revolts
- Cossacks were descendants and runaway peasants and serfs, both Ruthenian and Polish (because of intensive colonization), minor nobles (also Poles), peoples with grudges, with court sentences, all misfits etc.
- were orthodox (mostly), were free to roam steppes, raid Tatars (Tatars raided Ukraine killing, burning and enslaving, so no love between them) and Ottoman Empire (much richer target), plunder was also big attraction for new people
- were not uniform, there was "aristocracy", rich and influential people, owning farms and serfs themselves !!!!, from them most of Cossacks leaders came, were educated and most of what they wanted from Poland was to give them nobility titles, to make them equal with Polish nobles (who were not thrilled with idea of course, nobility to some, some ..., you can guess), there was middle "class", Cossacks with decent weapons and training, usualy serving in Polish army, or fighting with Tatars and rebeling against Poles and the lowest class - no training, weapon - runaway peasants

Regarding rebellions, it is fairly complicated, most of rebelions were located in so far-away Ukraine that almost nobody noticed and most were quickly squashed, especially before 1636 (IMO single or double revolt in one province in EU terms). First one was about 1590, first serious in 1637-38;
I have to stress that all these rebelions were about social and economical aspects of Cossacks' lives themselves. Idea to call peasants to arms and make a social revolution under religious banners apeared first (IIRC) in 1638.
More details see about Cossacks and their rebellions

After 1654 or 1667 most of Cossacks remained in Russian part of Ukraine and I can not give you details right now.
One of bigger one was uprosing of Mazepa during Great Northern War, and his uprising was one of reasons that Swedes went so deep into Russia and lost at Poltava - Mazepa did not have enough of support/strenght etc.

My opinion is that it is 100 years since (or more) of breving rebellions (the best way province specific events) but Cossacks were not Ukrainians, they gave legend etc. but Cossacks themselves resettled/or were resettled near Caucassus to fight with new enemies.

Regarding Polish Cossacks: there was gradual increase (also because of intensive colonization) till 1648. Later Easten Ukraine captured Russi a and Tsars had such military power to squash rebellions that they finally got "tame" Cossacks (rebels killed, rest enlisted).
Regarding Western Ukraine, which was left in Poland I do not recall rebellions, my guess (but I will have to check) is that they all remaind in Russin part of Ukraine. About 5 years later Poland lost southern provinces to Ottoman Empire and regained them in 1699 (so no Cossacks at thet time). Later I did not hear about Cosacks in Poland, I guess that there were none.
However hostile orthodox serfs remained, and they plus general decline of Poland make ukrainian culture sound.


Edit: revols before 1638 were of "militiant" Cossacks, one could compare them to Jannisary uprisings, but they had IMO smaller extend. First attempts to gain peasants appeared in 1638, but revolt was taken down before anything could evolve. Only Khmielnicky uprising did succeed because of massive influx of peasants and help of Crimean Khnate (some peasants did not realy have many choices: join Khmelnicky, get killed/enslaved by his Tatar allies, get killed by overentusiastic Khmielnicky followers or get killed by Polish punitive actions).
 
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doktarr

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Garbon said:
So we all know that quite a long time ago, the decision was reached to get rid of the Nogai Horde on the claim that it was not actually a state. Well I'm now starting to think that we actually axed in a flurry to find new tags (back before we really had any extras).

The argument has been that the Nogai Horde was simply a tribal state that ran around the region. As far as I can tell this is accurate to the extent that the Nogai existed as different entities. The "Greater Nogai Horde" had a capital on the eastern side of the Volga and participated in various wars in the region. There were also the lesser elements that traveled to Astrakhan and Sibir. Later all of the Nogais were expelled from their state by encroachments on the part of the Kazakhs and later total expulsion by the Russians.

Based on descriptions of their territories, they'd deserve Alga(515), and Emba (519); gaining Orenburg(456) and Irgiz(514) at the same time that Sibir expands. They'd start as vassals of the Golden Horde.

link

I'm not really sure how it could be considered less of state than the NA tribes, simply because it traveled around it its territory.
I don't disagree that they are at least as state-like as the NA tribes (whom I feel are probably better modeled by events). However, as far as I can tell, the Nogai didn't behave in a particularly tag-like way. I don't see any history of them entering alliances, other than simply accepting the overlordship of this or that power. They don't expand. The history would simply be:

1) Released by the Golden Horde, vassals until the horde collapses
2) When Astrakhan falls, secede northern territory to Russia
3) Tiny rump state in Central Asia waits around to be annexed by Khiva.

It seems like including them creates more potential for ahistorical developments, than it gives improvements in modeling history. That's my current opinion based on what I've seen, anyway.

Perhaps one good change would be to make these areas Mongol culture. This way they will be a little harder to govern and recruit from, at least until the Kalmyks arrive (who will have mongol culture). In the mid 1700s cultures could be changed to local turkic cultures by event.