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Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

Hello!

This week we’re going to look at some more changes we're planning, as well as a review of how some of the experiments mentioned in the last few dev diaries have evolved.

Thank you for the massive amount of feedback in those threads.

Reduction in Pops

Due to the effects on performance and a desire to reduce the micromanagement burden in the mid to late game, some of the things we’ve been deeply looking into are different ways of dramatically reducing the number of pops in the galaxy.

These experiments have generally revolved around modifying the growth (or assembly required) for pops as an empire’s population grows, with some variants trying a logistic pop growth (where growth follows an S-shaped curve as planets develop, based on a carrying capacity of a planet). These experiments have reduced the end date pop count to somewhere around one half of the old numbers with the expected performance improvements.

Organic pops will follow a curve where they begin at standard population growth, increase growth as the approach a midpoint between population and the planetary carrying capacity, then slow down to zero as they reach the top of the curve. Pop Assembly, on the other hand, is generally slow but consistent. The biggest change is that producing a new pop no longer costs a static amount of pop growth - it increases as the empire population does.

A significant reduction in pops has a cascade of major implications for the overall economy, production, and other gameplay effects. As such, these also require a pass on buildings, technologies, and even seemingly minor ripple effects like what the value should be for the trade value generated by pops.

There will be a lot of patch notes.

Most buildings have been standardized to now give 2 jobs per tier rather than the old 2/5/8 progression.

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Just one example of many.

We’ve also changed a few buildings to have new or additional features, such as the Spawning Pool and Clone Vats, which have had their Pop Growth modifiers replaced with the new Organic Pop Assembly. This fills the same slot on the planet as Robotic Pop Assembly, so generally you’ll want to pick one or the other. (Clone Vats also picked up a food upkeep cost to represent simple materials to break down.)

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Pops is Soylent Green!

A few other jobs got minor perks added to them, like the Medical Workers from Gene Clinics making it a little easier to live on less hospitable worlds.

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Doesn't normally produce exotic gas, this one happens to be a lithoid.

And a few new techs have been added to help compensate for lost productivity. One tech line increases both the job production of a planet as well as job upkeep - those fewer pops are still capable of producing the work of more on a developed planet.

Ring Worlds

As part of the balance pass, Ring Worlds have been bumped up to 10 segments from 5, and the jobs per segment have been adjusted.

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The Shattered Ring origin now possesses a warning that it may be a Challenging Origin for Lithoids due to a scarcity of minerals, and now also applies the Ring World Habitability Preference to your pops. We’re considering adding a similar warning for Hives selecting the origin, since the habitability preference change puts a serious crimp in their expansion.

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Put a ring on it?

Their starting blockers have also been adjusted to give a more balanced spread of jobs.

Ecumenopoleis

Like the Ring Worlds, these start with all building slots open. As mentioned before, you can now use the Arcology Project decision on a planet that has a mix of City and Industrial Districts.

Note: Empire has all technologies but no traditions active.
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The ecumenopolis has a unique distinction of being able to have both the Factory and Foundry building lines on the same planet.

Habitats

The changes to Habitat modules are much smaller in scope, but here’s the list of their districts.

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Void Dwellers have gotten a bit of attention as well with some tradition swaps for those that had minimal or no beneficial effects for them.

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Replacing Public Works Division:
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And for Void Dwellers with the Adaptability tree:
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Interstellar Franchising and Imperious Architecture now also function for Habitats.

Updates to Dev Diary 190

Some of these updates may not be new to people following the forum threads, but it's easy to miss things so I figured we should go over them.

Many people requested the ability to fully specialize their foundry and factory worlds. We've modified the Forge and Industrial World planet designations to shift one pop on each Industrial District to the appropriate job if possible.

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We've also upgraded the Food Processing Center, Mineral Purification Hub, and Energy Nexus to provide an extra job to each of their associated resource production districts. (The Food Processing Center will also improve Hydroponics Farms.)

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One of the suggestions made in the thread was to add a civic that increases unlocked Building Slots. Sounded like a great addition to Functional Architecture.

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Functionality increased!

Updates to Dev Diary 191

We’ve explored some additional options regarding the resettlement system we outlined in Dev Diary 191, and after trying a few things, and have settled on some extensive modifications to the system.

All planets with free sapient unemployed pops that are not locked down by migration controls will have a small chance every month of moving one to another planet within their empire that has jobs that they are willing and able to work, housing, and habitability of 40% or higher. This chance is increased if there are multiple unemployed pops that meet the criteria.

The system now prefers to move higher strata pops first, so rulers and specialists will move before workers, and this system also functions for gestalt empires. It will not relocate non-sapient robots or slaves. It will generally prefer to move pops to the planets with the most free jobs.

After some experimentation we’ve chosen to keep the Transit Hubs as Starbase Buildings that provide a system wide buff to the chance of auto-resettlement occurring. (Rather than being essential to have it occur in the first place.)

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Doubles the chance the pops choose to resettle themselves.

Greater Than Ourselves has been rewritten to also massively increase this chance when the edict is active, with a +200% bonus.

We initially had these pops considering destinations available through Migration Pacts as well, but decided against keeping that since it introduced a new Migration Controls micromanagement element that we didn’t find desirable.

We’ve also done a minor update to the Authority bonuses that seemed a little bit weak.

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Democracies now have a bonus encouraging their pops to seek their dreams, and Dictatorships have a bit of an easier time holding things together when they’re a bit overstretched.

Closing Thoughts

One other little quality of life improvement that was just added is this filter on the colonization interface.

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That’s probably long enough for today. We’re looking forward to your feedback on these as well.

Next week w̷e̵'̸l̸l̴ ̴b̸e̴t̵̮̄ǎ̸͈l̷̠̈k̴͔͂i̴̞͒n̷̪͊g̸̳͗ ̸͚̎a̵͉̐b̵̤̿ȯ̴̲ṵ̵̀t̸͇͂ ҈҂▒©╛⅜

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If I can suggest one change it would be to base that S curve on the total carrying capacity of your entire empire instead of a single planet.

And then divide the growth coming from that over each planet proportionally to the unfilled carrying capacity of each planet.

That would solve a lot of problems regarding gamey systems where people keep partially filled planets around just to be on the sweet spot of that S curve and then migrate/resettle pops from that planet to other planets.

It would also help significantly in the wide vs tall contrast as new colonies would no longer be adding entirely new sources of growth but simply increase the total carrying capacity. This would open the door for tall mechanics that increase carrying capacity without expanding ( like mastery of nature ). A tall empire that's invested significantly in a few planets through ecumenopolis, mastery of nature, a ringworld etc. would be able to achieve the same total carrying capacity and thus growth as a very wide empire that has dozens of colonized systems.

That is a good idea and wouldn't encourage you to settle low habitability planets just for the pop growth or to try the system to resettle for max pop growth.
 
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Regarding the colonization interface, I would really love to see a drop-down menu format for subspecies. My most recent single-player game has become unplayable because there are now SO many species variants that the box overflows, making colonization impossible (I reported this here but was never replied to).

What I would love to see would be an arrow next to, say, "Human" that would let me expand or collapse all the subvariants of Humans that exist in my empire. That way the initial list would only consist of one entry for each portrait, which would make it SO much more manageable!
 
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Generally very good changes.

Slightly skeptical about the premise for pop growth, but if it achieves the purpose......

I like the percent chance to migrate, not sure about the 40 hab though. Seems a bit low. High hab and lots of jobs should be a better pull than low hab and few jobs, but it's all good.

The filter to founder species checkbox on the colonization screen had me sold.


EDIT; Was thinking about the pop size of 100 increasing as your empire grows rather than being a static figure .... and this makes sense in a weird sort of way. Generally large developed societies have declining birth rates as prosperity and medical technology improves, and you could model this as either a penalty to base growth rates or a longer mean time to grow the total population.

Increasing the thredhold to gain a pop makes more intuitive sense to me than reducing the base growth rate, but I can't quite explain why.
 
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So the bigger your empire, the slower the growth? Could you please tell usthe "in lore" justification for this?

reality . its not the best lore , but is our only example of inteligent society . ( edit : not realy, i mean our planet with all living form on this world that have a society , follow this tendency )

i can see hive maybe having different mindsets , and different kind of species having actualy different growh rate from others( planetoids , umanoids , molluscoids ) .

but to see races actualy having difference ( if not by traits) is something that is coming slowly with race packs .. i always hope they will add some flavor to actualy chosing one over something else. but for now, all are the same , and all follow humanoid ways .
 
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I can't say I am happy with the reduction in pop numbers. It feels like a backtrack to the economy rework that introduced the new planetary management system and did away with tiles. The large pop numbers add scale. I understand of course why it is done. It's because it turned out the engine can't handle the sheer number of pops and still run the game without major slowdowns. The changes were shortsighted. So it's sad because reducing the pop number feels like a surrender and an admission that it is not possible to have large number of pops and a smooth game.

If at least planets with enormous populations were still possible. Like ecumenopoli and ring-worlds, to maintain the wow factor and enhance their importance. I could see a point. I could totally see a galaxy filled with less heavily populated rural worlds and a few core densely populated planets. But I guess, as usual, galactic wonders will be nerfed for the sake of multiplayer balance.

I am also still curious to see if the influence cost for resettlement will be removed. Manual resettlement is indeed micro-heavy and does need additional attention. But penalizing the player for going out of their way to play the game better shouldn't be it. Small additions, like shift+click to move 10 pops or all pops of this type in the resettlement window for instance would be a lot more helpful.
 
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Just to verify something, will sapient robots autorelocate? I just want to be sure because previous versions of pop migration haven't allowed synths to migrate on their own.
 
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To be completely honest, I think the base 10%/month rate for pop migration is someone TOO high, in that it somewhat blunts the value of picking Democracy, building Hubs, or using GTO, making them less special.

I might suggest halving the base rate, making Democracy +100%, and keeping the rest the same.

A base empire having a 71.76% chance of moving the pop within one year seems too high and may cause unintended problems. For instance, if you forget to prebuild a district/building to come on line right before a new pop is born [particular a housing + job providing district], you may find that your new pop [which you may have wanted on that planet] leaves very quickly, with a good chance of doing so before you finish the district.

If we changed the base rate to 5%, then pops would only have a 45% chance of leaving within a year and would take 2 years to reach a 70% chance, so you'd have more time to respond to such occurrences.

I'll post some more thoughts on Gene Clinics in a bit.


(Note: Despite my critique, I really like a lot of these changes, even if I'd suggest changes to finer details.)
 
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The habitat stuff sounds fantastic. My only real complaint is that it doesn't sound like habitats really get a superior industry district, but again everything else sounds pretty awesome.

Love the idea of organic pop assembly and robots not being required.

Also like the direction of gene clinics. They don't need to be on every colony, but they do need a buff and habitability boost might just do the trick.

IIRC Clone Vats are locked behind biologic ascension path. Will this be changed or spiritualists are still in bad spot?

Was about to ask that myself. Also will cloning tech be setup so that players can get it around the same time they could get robot assembly. I dig the idea of making it so robots are optional and when I play spiritualist empires, I wont have factions being unhappy about me going for an optimal route that uses robots because robots will no longer be required.

On another note. Would it be possible to get a new policy in regards to robot assembly called standardization protocols? Essentially, what it would do if the player enables it is that it will slowly convert foreign robots and synths to that of your main robot species. Also give us a new species living rights for robots called obsolete. The game will no longer select robots with this living standard and will upgrade or convert units that have it. Not sure what the trade offs should be, if that should be reduced pop assembly, increased costs or something else.

On that note, would love a living standard called gene modding for biological and lithoid species. Can only be used if there is a sub-species of the species selected. Pops are slowly modified into sub species that do not have this living standard. it would help to make migration treaties a little less annoying, since we wouldn't have to constantly deal with repatriated pops that are inferior to their genetical modified cousins. Could also prevent the growth of pops with this living standard or if it allows them, upon growth completion they are converted to an acceptable sub-species, maybe at the cost of some pop growth during the process.

Anyways moving on to some no pop stuff.

-Will alloy foundry and civilian industries be baseline techs or since it sounds like they are going to be unique buildings, will we have to research them. Are the upgrades for them being removed since that would put them more on par with the super computer? It would also be handy for debloating the engineering tree, even if it's a net reduction of two,.

-Ministry of production, I pretty sure that's the name, too lazy to google it, sounds like it'll be kind of redundant with the changes. Will that still be around since it helps non-gestalt empires make up for the fact that they need to split minerals between alloys and consumer goods or is it going away?

-I know the concept of civil infrastructure came up in regards to the resettlement stuff. Do the devs like the concept behind that?
 
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My play experience has been that one of the primary benefits of upgrading buildings (as opposed to building multiple ones) is that you get more jobs when upgrading buildings. (2 research labs, for example, gives me 4 jobs, whereas upgrading to a research complex would give me 5, which makes the tradeoff ALWAYS worth it). If we're going to be moving to a 2/4/6 scale insteed of 2/5/8, aside from to save space, what benefit is there to upgrading a building? Or is saving space supposed to be the primary benefit in and of itself?
In Dev Diary #190 they posted an image with the different planet interface these have a build slot segment of 2 by 6 instead of the 4 by 4 we have now. This is a reduction from 16 to 12. However building slots depend on development instead of pops in that new system. So "newer" planets will get access to more build slots sooner if you have enough resources, but in the late game we loose out.

This basically means that you'll have faster access to more slots, but that each of these individual slot is worth more. So yes, the saving of space is a good reason to upgrade in this system. Upgrading frees a slot for other vital buildings.

Huh. I was considering making a thread asking whats with gaia world origin giving you gaia world habitability, but ring world end relic world origins not giving you ring world or relic world modifiers while those do exist in the game xD(with post apocalyptic I assume its because tomb world habitability is super good) Like I was wondering if it was balance thing or if ring world and relic world were just intended to be stronger than normal origins.
There have been many a post with the question why Void Dwellers and Life Seeded get the habitability malice, but Ring World and Post-Apocalyptic do not get the same treatment. In my opinion these preferences should have been added from the start. As for tomb world not being added for balance reasons, it is possible to adjust the numbers. If you lower the non-tomb-world habitability from 60% to 40% or 35% you get Tomb world habitability in a spot where its worse then same type (Desert, Arid Dry) Habitability of 60%, but better then the rest of them.

It would be a type of Lithoids lite, and I'm OK with that.
I totally agree with you. I will however continue to play with psi ascension even if it means only play with mod that clearly balance the spiritualist way. Maybe something will come...
Have faith, the shroud will provide.

Oh my god I love it and want it now. Does this mean I can finally make an origin where the species is completely infertile and relies on cloning to reproduce?
Lithoid necrophage gets close to this concept in current version. But yes, if you are mod savvy I suppose you could mod an origin that unlocked cloning vat tech and started with a cloning vat building. Giving your species a trait that doesn't allow them to reproduce shouldn't be that hard, even if it's a janky -100% growth speed modifier.

I would like for post apocalyptic to get true tomb world habitability, but start with significantly less pops, because most of them died in the Apokalypse.
Starting them off with less pops could be a thing if building slots aren't related to pops anymore. That's part of the reason why I'd really like a revisit on the origin.

Yes, this is true. They'll have some pretty potent bonuses when it comes to R̵Ę̶͐D̵̩̄A̸͙̓C̶̢͝T̶̩̆Ę̸̈D̴ though, we'll talk more about that in a few weeks.
That tease is brilliant. Never change, because this is perfection.

So, something I've been curious about. Has there been any thought to making pop growth an empire-wide modifier rather than a colony-based metric? It just seems like the incentive still is always to have more smaller colonies than one large one; or am I missing something?
Isn't that basically what they are doing by increasing the amount of growth needed to grow a new pop the more pops you have? I thought this was based on empire population?

So psionic ascension has the fewest pops and the weakest pops...
Fewest will always be the case. But what if the redacted part would pertain to the "weakest" part? What if psionics got access to boons like +25% specialists output? Wouldn't those kinds of boons make psionic ascension a viable and truly TALL playstyle?

Psi Ascension itself is sadly weak. As is the ethos behind it. -10% Edict cost is frankly, completely useless. And +20% Monthly unity is much, much, much weaker than it initially sounds. At this point, they should change the edict cost reduction for something else entirely, and maybe give Spiritualist a -20% reduction to bio pop upkeep in line with robots?
The reduced Edict cost is quite nice for specific play styles. However the problem with unity is that you reach a point where there's nothing to spend it on. It'd be like having tech without the repeatables. I know there's Ambitions, but those are wholly lacking. It would be better if there were more edict like ambitions in the early game where you can give up X amount of unity income for Y amount of (specialist) production boost for Z amount of time.

Since "Organic Pop Assembly" is intended to represent cloning, the naming I came up for it in my earlier suggestion was "Pop Replication".
I still feel strongly about "Pop Incubation", as anything that grows has an incubation period. Even clones need to be incubated to reach maturity, which would be represented by the growth bar in the interface.

It affects Lithoids. 50% habitability everywhere else isn't good. As for bios, this basically kills Ring World start. Nobody takes Gaia for a reason. Voidborne can quickly get to the point where they can build additional habitats and get minerals in various ways. Still good for Machine Empires. Bad for everyone else now.
50% habitability is fine really. Trough technology that becomes 70% habitability and with a Gene clinic in the new iteration that's 75%. Aside from that, for bio pops terraforming is an option. Taking the World Shaper ascension perk would be pretty much mandatory, like it is for Life Seeded now.
 
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I quite like everything that I see here, except for the void dweller buffs. That was already one of the strongest origins by far; and the buffs seem very out of touch.

Except it isn't clear how habitats are going to work. I am not seeing anything in the districts that opens up building slots (note in diary 190, regular city districts said they give a building slot). If you can only get a handful of buildings in a habitat that's mostly fixed when you build them, then that's a huge nerf.
 
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I still feel strongly about "Pop Incubation", as anything that grows has an incubation period. Even clones need to be incubated to reach maturity, which would be represented by the growth bar in the interface.
Yeah, I just wanted to mention that I've suggested Pop Replication for the naming before, but Pop Incubation would also be good.
 
Yeah, I just wanted to mention that I've suggested Pop Replication for the naming before, but Pop Incubation would also be good.
It doesn't really matter. Either is better then Pop Assembly. Now If you'll excuse me, I'll be in a corner sickened by the Paradox naming sense.. pop assembly, the nerve...
 
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