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Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

Hello!

This week we’re going to look at some more changes we're planning, as well as a review of how some of the experiments mentioned in the last few dev diaries have evolved.

Thank you for the massive amount of feedback in those threads.

Reduction in Pops

Due to the effects on performance and a desire to reduce the micromanagement burden in the mid to late game, some of the things we’ve been deeply looking into are different ways of dramatically reducing the number of pops in the galaxy.

These experiments have generally revolved around modifying the growth (or assembly required) for pops as an empire’s population grows, with some variants trying a logistic pop growth (where growth follows an S-shaped curve as planets develop, based on a carrying capacity of a planet). These experiments have reduced the end date pop count to somewhere around one half of the old numbers with the expected performance improvements.

Organic pops will follow a curve where they begin at standard population growth, increase growth as the approach a midpoint between population and the planetary carrying capacity, then slow down to zero as they reach the top of the curve. Pop Assembly, on the other hand, is generally slow but consistent. The biggest change is that producing a new pop no longer costs a static amount of pop growth - it increases as the empire population does.

A significant reduction in pops has a cascade of major implications for the overall economy, production, and other gameplay effects. As such, these also require a pass on buildings, technologies, and even seemingly minor ripple effects like what the value should be for the trade value generated by pops.

There will be a lot of patch notes.

Most buildings have been standardized to now give 2 jobs per tier rather than the old 2/5/8 progression.

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Just one example of many.

We’ve also changed a few buildings to have new or additional features, such as the Spawning Pool and Clone Vats, which have had their Pop Growth modifiers replaced with the new Organic Pop Assembly. This fills the same slot on the planet as Robotic Pop Assembly, so generally you’ll want to pick one or the other. (Clone Vats also picked up a food upkeep cost to represent simple materials to break down.)

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Pops is Soylent Green!

A few other jobs got minor perks added to them, like the Medical Workers from Gene Clinics making it a little easier to live on less hospitable worlds.

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Doesn't normally produce exotic gas, this one happens to be a lithoid.

And a few new techs have been added to help compensate for lost productivity. One tech line increases both the job production of a planet as well as job upkeep - those fewer pops are still capable of producing the work of more on a developed planet.

Ring Worlds

As part of the balance pass, Ring Worlds have been bumped up to 10 segments from 5, and the jobs per segment have been adjusted.

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The Shattered Ring origin now possesses a warning that it may be a Challenging Origin for Lithoids due to a scarcity of minerals, and now also applies the Ring World Habitability Preference to your pops. We’re considering adding a similar warning for Hives selecting the origin, since the habitability preference change puts a serious crimp in their expansion.

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Put a ring on it?

Their starting blockers have also been adjusted to give a more balanced spread of jobs.

Ecumenopoleis

Like the Ring Worlds, these start with all building slots open. As mentioned before, you can now use the Arcology Project decision on a planet that has a mix of City and Industrial Districts.

Note: Empire has all technologies but no traditions active.
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The ecumenopolis has a unique distinction of being able to have both the Factory and Foundry building lines on the same planet.

Habitats

The changes to Habitat modules are much smaller in scope, but here’s the list of their districts.

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Void Dwellers have gotten a bit of attention as well with some tradition swaps for those that had minimal or no beneficial effects for them.

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Replacing Public Works Division:
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And for Void Dwellers with the Adaptability tree:
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Interstellar Franchising and Imperious Architecture now also function for Habitats.

Updates to Dev Diary 190

Some of these updates may not be new to people following the forum threads, but it's easy to miss things so I figured we should go over them.

Many people requested the ability to fully specialize their foundry and factory worlds. We've modified the Forge and Industrial World planet designations to shift one pop on each Industrial District to the appropriate job if possible.

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We've also upgraded the Food Processing Center, Mineral Purification Hub, and Energy Nexus to provide an extra job to each of their associated resource production districts. (The Food Processing Center will also improve Hydroponics Farms.)

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One of the suggestions made in the thread was to add a civic that increases unlocked Building Slots. Sounded like a great addition to Functional Architecture.

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Functionality increased!

Updates to Dev Diary 191

We’ve explored some additional options regarding the resettlement system we outlined in Dev Diary 191, and after trying a few things, and have settled on some extensive modifications to the system.

All planets with free sapient unemployed pops that are not locked down by migration controls will have a small chance every month of moving one to another planet within their empire that has jobs that they are willing and able to work, housing, and habitability of 40% or higher. This chance is increased if there are multiple unemployed pops that meet the criteria.

The system now prefers to move higher strata pops first, so rulers and specialists will move before workers, and this system also functions for gestalt empires. It will not relocate non-sapient robots or slaves. It will generally prefer to move pops to the planets with the most free jobs.

After some experimentation we’ve chosen to keep the Transit Hubs as Starbase Buildings that provide a system wide buff to the chance of auto-resettlement occurring. (Rather than being essential to have it occur in the first place.)

1605711834820.png

Doubles the chance the pops choose to resettle themselves.

Greater Than Ourselves has been rewritten to also massively increase this chance when the edict is active, with a +200% bonus.

We initially had these pops considering destinations available through Migration Pacts as well, but decided against keeping that since it introduced a new Migration Controls micromanagement element that we didn’t find desirable.

We’ve also done a minor update to the Authority bonuses that seemed a little bit weak.

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Democracies now have a bonus encouraging their pops to seek their dreams, and Dictatorships have a bit of an easier time holding things together when they’re a bit overstretched.

Closing Thoughts

One other little quality of life improvement that was just added is this filter on the colonization interface.

Colonisation QoL.gif


That’s probably long enough for today. We’re looking forward to your feedback on these as well.

Next week w̷e̵'̸l̸l̴ ̴b̸e̴t̵̮̄ǎ̸͈l̷̠̈k̴͔͂i̴̞͒n̷̪͊g̸̳͗ ̸͚̎a̵͉̐b̵̤̿ȯ̴̲ṵ̵̀t̸͇͂ ҈҂▒©╛⅜

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Deshiba

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The devs indicated that most buildings would be changing to a 2/4/6 cadence with jobs and tiers, so it is not an unreasonable assumption to assume that Gene Clinics would have 4 jobs in the new system [just as 2nd tier research labs would have 4] unless specifically indicated not to.
It's quite a jump to simply assume that gene clinics will get their upgraded jobs amount adjusted. Only the 2/5/8 are specifically mentioned, the 2/5 is still up in the air. This is why I specifically noted "and the jobs don't change", maybe I should have put 'amount' in there.

Using Extremely Adaptive is extremely costly with respect to gene-modding points, and can be outright impossible in certain builds [Psionic Ascension locking out the ability to replace positive traits with stronger version by not going Biological Ascension + starting with Adaptive], plus there would be the opportunity cost of not using those points on things like Intelligent, Natural Engineers, Rapid Breeders, etc. If you're willing to put so many trait points into Adaptative traits you being rewarded for it is reasonable.
The point was that if it was upped to 5% it would be too strong. Even if the jobs get gimped to 2/4 that's still 20% hab. That means you can set yourself up in the way I described and have 80% habitability minimum. It's too much for a biological empire to flat out become a Lithoid Lite species. Sure the 4 cost for extreme adaptability is a big investment, but you are getting the value of x2.5 rapid breeders compared to lithoids. Now I know there's more to lithoids then that, but it doesn't seem balanced to have 1 building give that much habitability.

As for your comments on my suggestion for Cyto-Revitalization Centers, I'm willing to admit that there's probably something better that can be done; I was just trying to come up with something of meaningful benefit to Ecumenopolis/Gaia/Ring worlds? Do you have any suggestions for something better?
I'm personally a big fan of the added "pop assembly" slot they added to clone vats. I'd love it if they switched the cloning vats and medical centers around. Giving every empire the choice of picking robots or clones for the extra pop slot. And then lock medical centers behind the accession perk, giving growth speed boosts to the regular growth slot and the bonus pop slot.

If any of this makes sense its a miracle, because I'm quite sleep deprived at 02:52. Time for bed.
 
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Mímisbrunnr

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@Deshiba

What if the habitability bonus was 2.5% instead? Then you could get 5% from a 2-slot building and 10% from a 4-slot building?

You'd need a full 4-slot building [assuming that will be how it is] plus Adaptive trait to turn a 20% hab (wrong climate type) world to 40% without terraforming tech, and you'd only be at 30% without adapative. Then you could get up to only 50% with habitability techs + 4-slot building, or 60/70% if invested in Adaptive/Extremely Adaptive.

I think medical buildings are too fundamental to a society to lock them behind an ascension perk, so I can't endorse that idea. I'm more sympathetic to your pop assembly job to make them more comparable to robot assembly plants, which they compete with, but they'd need to be worse at assembly (presumably) if they also give amenities so as to not obsolete robots.
 
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Ringworld was strong, but the "strong" origins had a lot of competition between hegemony, void dweller, scion, doomsday robots, and necrophage fan purifiers, all of which I would rate as top tier. Ringworld habitability means you might be effectively locked from colonizing other planets for decades, and that's an insurmountable penalty. The only advantage of Ringworlds is their ability to spam research districts (something void dwellers can also do almost as easily), this gimps them too much. Lithoids are absolutely affected. The fact that this doesn't affect robots (who are also the stronger pick for ringworlds since they can research with energy rather than minerals->CGs) just shows how nonsense the nerf is.

The problem is that things aren't being nerfed because they are objectively too strong. Hell, given most people play Single Player anyway. But because people complain about it a lot. Scion and Hegemon are both much stronger and allow you to spiral out of control quickly. Void Dweller is just as strong if not more so and now receives buffs.

Rather than making some of the stronger civics unuseable/nerfing them. They should buff the weaker ones. Post Apocalyptic for example. Who picks that? Doesn't even give you Tombworld habitability. Tombworlds are not numerous enough to be worth anything and usually get terraformed anyway. Mechanic. It ultimately boils down to a 5% upkeep reduction for robots. That's, super underwhelming.

The reduced Edict cost is quite nice for specific play styles. However the problem with unity is that you reach a point where there's nothing to spend it on. It'd be like having tech without the repeatables. I know there's Ambitions, but those are wholly lacking. It would be better if there were more edict like ambitions in the early game where you can give up X amount of unity income for Y amount of (specialist) production boost for Z amount of time.
The problem is. You can either afford the edict or you can't. The 10% aren't going to matter. Because either you have the influence to spare or can just buy the resources from the market, or you can't. The 10% aren't usually the deciding factor.

As for unity. The problem is that at the end of the day the bonus isn't big enough. And eventually runs its course. Looking at it coinciding with other bonuses. It means you might get the traditions a few months earlier, at best. And later on, unity really isn't a concern anymore. Even with the edicts constantly running you'll be drowning in it before too long.

50% habitability is fine really. Trough technology that becomes 70% habitability and with a Gene clinic in the new iteration that's 75%. Aside from that, for bio pops terraforming is an option. Taking the World Shaper ascension perk would be pretty much mandatory, like it is for Life Seeded now.
To get that you would need Climate Restoration. That's not going to happen in any realistic timeframe. Hell, you likely get glandular acclimation before that and can just give your pops a different preference. Which still takes a fairly long time. There's a reason pretty much nobody is playing Gaia. Chances are this is going to catapult ringworld start right into F tier.
 

Greykrest

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Rather than making some of the stronger civics unuseable/nerfing them. They should buff the weaker ones. Post Apocalyptic for example. Who picks that? Doesn't even give you Tombworld habitability. Tombworlds are not numerous enough to be worth anything and usually get terraformed anyway. Mechanic. It ultimately boils down to a 5% upkeep reduction for robots. That's, super underwhelming.

Except for that one thing that "hardcore" players hate: roleplay.

Shattered Ring was super powerful and could probably use a nerf. But Scion is even more powerful, and I don't see that getting changed. It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. Gameplay changes could be for balance, roleplay, or a mixture of both. Only a minuscule percentage of Stellaris players are in multiplayer. When you crunch the numbers, precisely one style of gameplay will almost always be objectively "best." But sometimes you have to set that to the side, see past the 1s and 0s and just have fun. And yes, that kind of answer is infuriating to precisely the kind of players who divide things up into "tiers."
 
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Except for that one thing that "hardcore" players hate: roleplay.

Shattered Ring was super powerful and could probably use a nerf. But Scion is even more powerful, and I don't see that getting changed. It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. Gameplay changes could be for balance, roleplay, or a mixture of both. Only a minuscule percentage of Stellaris players are in multiplayer. When you crunch the numbers, precisely one style of gameplay will almost always be objectively "best." But sometimes you have to set that to the side, see past the 1s and 0s and just have fun. And yes, that kind of answer is infuriating to precisely the kind of players who divide things up into "tiers."
I personally don't hate roleplay. I'm also uncertain how a nerf to Shattered Ring benefits it exactly. All it does is make it an origin most people won't pick. If it's about "just fun" they could leave things at large alone, maybe improve some of the weaker ones to make them more engaging and interesting, enhance their RP aspect, etc.

Hell, on the shoulder of giants is interesting, does a lot of things, and fairly unique. Mechanist, not as much.
 
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I personally don't hate roleplay. I'm also uncertain how a nerf to Shattered Ring benefits it exactly. All it does is make it an origin most people won't pick. If it's about "just fun" they could leave things at large alone, maybe improve some of the weaker ones to make them more engaging and interesting, enhance their RP aspect, etc.

Hell, on the shoulder of giants is interesting, does a lot of things, and fairly unique. Mechanist, not as much.

Well considering the conceit of Shattered Ring is that you are a species that has lived exclusively on a Ringworld for thousands of years, so long you have forgotten your own history, it seems obvious you should have the "Ring Preference" to me.

And who says players won't pick it? Even assuming Shattered Ring is now garbage (which I don't agree with), it could provide a cool challenge for those who want it.

It doesn't have to be "just fun." Like I said, changes could be for balance, roleplay or both.
 
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Worried Rogue Servitor will get left in the dust again.

Wondering how my trophies might want to migrate- who am I to say where they want their refuges?

Also still wondering if Void Dwellers could be compatible with RS- that would be a proper Banks update.
 
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Well considering the conceit of Shattered Ring is that you are a species that has lived exclusively on a Ringworld for thousands of years, so long you have forgotten your own history, it seems obvious you should have the "Ring Preference" to me.

And who says players won't pick it? Even assuming Shattered Ring is now garbage (which I don't agree with), it could provide a cool challenge for those who want it.

It doesn't have to be "just fun." Like I said, changes could be for balance, roleplay or both.
The species didn't develop on the ring, it was transplanted there. Evolution especially for longer-lived species takes a very long time. And this is not "forgetting how to live somewhere else" as a Ring World doesn't truly have its own unique climate but just emulates other climates. Seriously, this is a space-faring civilization, trying to argue they're too stupid to figure out planets similar to their ring world is, questionable.


Some will pick not, not many though. Unless you're a Machine Empire. In which case it's just as good as before.
 
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The Keeper of the Links

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Sorry, but they're still a lot weak. Even with the associated features/mechanics, authorities have very little impact and don't differentiate empires nearly enough. They are still a template choice, that restricts a few civic choices and maybe the government type you are allocated. Big whoop.
I actually think the authorities do quite a lot. Beacon of liberty is very good for example, and can only be taken by Democratic empires. I think the choices you get with Origins, civics, ethics, and authority put together adds up to create some big choices when building your empire.
 

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Except it isn't clear how habitats are going to work. I am not seeing anything in the districts that opens up building slots (note in diary 190, regular city districts said they give a building slot). If you can only get a handful of buildings in a habitat that's mostly fixed when you build them, then that's a huge nerf.

Habitats are intended to be cramped. You get two building slots from the capital building, two from technologies, one from tradition (or two with adaptability), and (if you pick them) one from a civic and two from an ascension perk. If you stack all of those, that's 9 building slots. Considering that functional architecture also reduces the alloy upkeep of habitats (as it's attached to the capital building), it's going to be a very powerful synergy.
 
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I was concerned with the coupling of alloy and goods as well as how the resettlement was slated to work, and the changes to both of those systems are legendary. I appreciate all of the great design work and commitment to iteration the team is showing. keep it up!
 
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Drachasor

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Habitats are intended to be cramped. You get two building slots from the capital building, two from technologies, one from tradition (or two with adaptability), and (if you pick them) one from a civic and two from an ascension perk. If you stack all of those, that's 9 building slots. Considering that functional architecture also reduces the alloy upkeep of habitats (as it's attached to the capital building), it's going to be a very powerful synergy.

Compared to now, that's a big nerf for me. It's a lot less building slots and I have often used those for strategic resources in addition to making energy or minerals or whatever. It's a lot more than 9 slots each, and I definitely wouldn't have 9. 9 slots isn't really a lot, in all honesty.

I am not saying they'll be useless by any means. But this does seem like an overall nerf to me. Granted, that's probably needed, but you are responding to me making the point that there were nerfs and it wasn't just buffs on the existing habitat game.
 

Drachasor

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Worried Rogue Servitor will get left in the dust again.

Wondering how my trophies might want to migrate- who am I to say where they want their refuges?

Also still wondering if Void Dwellers could be compatible with RS- that would be a proper Banks update.

I am a bit concerned because on of the nice things about Rogue Servitor is how the bio-trophies help you get building slots faster. Not helping that makes them less valuable and the 5% complex job resource bonus isn't that great overall. Though, I guess with the industrial districts they might have a bigger role to play there. That still seems a bit limited.
 
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Drachasor

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I do wonder if science jobs shouldn't just come from buildings that add them to districts -- social scientist jobs added to city/residential, physics scientists added to energy, and engineering added to industrial. Or replace jobs there. Part of me likes the idea of buildings primarily changing how districts work on a planet.
 
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Tamwin5

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Compared to now, that's a big nerf for me. It's a lot less building slots and I have often used those for strategic resources in addition to making energy or minerals or whatever. It's a lot more than 9 slots each, and I definitely wouldn't have 9. 9 slots isn't really a lot, in all honesty.

I am not saying they'll be useless by any means. But this does seem like an overall nerf to me. Granted, that's probably needed, but you are responding to me making the point that there were nerfs and it wasn't just buffs on the existing habitat game.

Yeah, for normal empires habitats will have a much lower population ceiling. They might be actually better for rare resources though, as on a fresh habitat (in late game) you can build 3 buildings right off the bat, 4 once you upgrade the capital. So I can easily see starting with some refineries (plus probably pop assembly), then using districts to provide more jobs for the pops which grow.

The real spot to make dedicated refinery worlds will be ecumenopoli IMO, as they get all building slots unlocked at base.
 
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Dark Meta

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I am loving the changes so far

There are some things, like technologies, that mitigate the production reduction to some degree.

How about also buffing full developed worlds?
So in essence, you get less pops, especially in the late game, but a full and almost 100% developed and paved world should be more effective at producing resources for the empire per pop than the 3 pop frontier planet with a farm disctrict.
So why not buff generall production alittle (like stability already does) for well developed worlds. Better logistics, better infrastructure or something like that.

If not that you could do something like that with Trade. You already mentioned that Trade needs a buff with less pops. Maybe this infrastructure scaling can directly increase tradevalue per job by a percent. Or clerk jobs get a buff per pop on the planet, even though since they are less, maybe thats not fitting. Maybe per unlocked Buildingslot (not counting the special unlocked until they would also be unlocked naturaly. Or maybe do to buff those effects...)

Just an idea i just had on my way to work, because developed worlds should be better than alot of fringe planets (especially to make playing tall more viable / distinct again :p)
 
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Deshiba

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I personally don't hate roleplay. I'm also uncertain how a nerf to Shattered Ring benefits it exactly. All it does is make it an origin most people won't pick. If it's about "just fun" they could leave things at large alone, maybe improve some of the weaker ones to make them more engaging and interesting, enhance their RP aspect, etc.

Hell, on the shoulder of giants is interesting, does a lot of things, and fairly unique. Mechanist, not as much.
Ring worlds could do with a nerf, maybe now it will actually be usable for multiplayer instead of being on the blacklist.

Aside from that, it's not all bad. With the change to build slots and the return from 5 to 10 districts there's more leeway to build up your ring world without needing to expand initially. And if the changes to districts in regards to industrial districts gets implemented on ring worlds as well it'll definitely be interesting to play with.

I don't feel like the nerf to habitability is the "gutting" and "f tier" it's being made out to be by some.
 
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Greykrest

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The species didn't develop on the ring, it was transplanted there. Evolution especially for longer-lived species takes a very long time. And this is not "forgetting how to live somewhere else" as a Ring World doesn't truly have its own unique climate but just emulates other climates. Seriously, this is a space-faring civilization, trying to argue they're too stupid to figure out planets similar to their ring world is, questionable.

Well I suppose it's like the Gaia World. Both provide 100% habitability to all species. Some people said, "Continental Worlds also have all biomes, why aren't they Gaia worlds?" The idea is there is something uniquely special about Gaia Worlds and Ringworlds. A climate is not merely being emulated: it's specifically designed to be a paradise. Suddenly a species is being exposed to a universe full of predators, diseases and natural disasters - a universe which does not give easily and willingly like they're used to, but one which takes as much as it gives. Things the living members of a Ringworld species never had to deal with. I'd imagine that'd be difficult to deal with. I think Ringworld Preference fits perfectly.
 
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