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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
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In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
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Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
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(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
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Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
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(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
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Wiz,

Can empires that doesn't have a galactic market lock certain strategic resources so other empires can't get it?
Or will it automatically open up for everyone once found?

i remember that in the DD of the market , wiz should have said something about that.

what i remember about that, if i'm not wrong, is that if you don't sell a certain amount of those special resource to the galatic market, they will not become viable . so , yea, you can stop some special resource from getting in the market , if you are sure you are the only one that actualy got them :p
 
So this is maybe a bit of a niche concern but I've taken to moving my species into the L cluster once it's available and releasing everything outside of it, would piracy be a concern in a closed system like that? Or is it too small/reasonable amount of starbases would eliminate the threat?
 
We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

Additional collection points might be a good place to have strong (and well funded) independence movements?
Let's say Blorg's Bane is not in the capital sector and is the collection point of a rich trade route network. It would seem logical to me that the inhabitants could feel that they could strike out on their own (possibly dragging the upstream systems with them).
On the other hand, if control can be maintained, non-capital collection points could be a nice energy earner for a large empire.

(apologies if someone suggested something similar already - working my way through the thread!)
 
Don't know if it's been mentioned but sounds like trade routes might just be something that barbaric despoilers could take advantage of in some way.

For example, if despoilers should be able to flag fleets as 'pirate' (privateer?) which can then go and raid other nations' trade routes during peacetime (even across closed borders). Sure you may know it's coming from them, but you might not be in a position to declare war on them over it. As a bonus (though we havent heard anything about how it works yet) they may also get to gather slaves from it

Yes, Wiz already mentioned they are interested in doing this but don't know exactly how, at the moment.
Considering LeGuin and the DLC accompanying it will probably show up in January or February next year, they still have a long of figuring this out.
 
@Wiz, reposting from last DD

A few questions/comments about the update:

  • I remember there being a martial law effect on planets that costs influence as a way to reduce crime, however have you thought about allowing militarists ethos empires the ability to normally use soldiers and fortresses to reduce (working class/slave/population being purged) unrest (but not crime), the idea being that while soldiers aren't very good at investigating crime but they're pretty good at crushing peaceful street protests or labor strikes, so even if your planets are high crime hell holes the people cast their eyes down go about their business for fear of getting shot at a rally.
  • Similarly, I really like the idea of different civics giving different leader jobs on planets instead of just making X thing Y% better for the entire empire forever (like aristocratic elite, corporate dominion and probably exalted priesthood), so how does this work with the police state civic? That is does the civic just make enforcers better at crushing crime or does it work at reducing unrest/ethics divergence/increasing core ethics attractions, and do these bonuses come from a leader job (like a "planetary security executor"), or from a certain number of high class secret police jobs.
  • As a sort of egalitarian opposite to the police state civic there could be a "colonial militia" civic, which provides a crime reducing Marshal job on each planet and reduces piracy in non-core systems, and when invaded a planet with a Marshal spawns a low damage/high morale army for every (working class?) population unit on the planet. The idea being that a representative accountable government is encouraging its population to remain armed and organized to assist the few law enforcement/military personnel defending the frontier/everyone is really motivated to defend their home and rights. Police state could also do something similar, but where it spawns a high damage, high morale army for every one of the (very small number of) secret police jobs, which buff the morale of friendly defending units and have a very low chance to get hit so long as other friendly units are still alive. The idea being that the secret police units are really well armed and motivated to defend the regime, while the regular soldiery are more scared of the regimes enforcer units blocking their path of retreat and of the political commissars (or spiritualists confessors) mixed into their ranks than they are of the enemy.
  • With the planetary/sector rework are there going to be "sector capital worlds" similar to the empire capital worlds, which serve as the center of government for a sector and allow for the construction of sector unique buildings which provide buffs to the entire sector. This could also allow for governors or members of other leader grounds to become physical entities on the planets, such as sector capitals having governor job positions, chief scientists existing within a research lab or ministry on the home world, ability to recruit/assign more scientists/generals/admirals/governors to different worlds for different buffs or to investigate special projects, or the existence of cabinet positions within the government similar to advisors from HOI4.
  • This also creates more risk if a planet is invaded and you can't evacuate leaders in time, leaders could be killed in fighting (collateral damage dependent), be captured and imprisoned/executed by the invaders, or turn their coat and join the invaders, giving them a free ruler and potentially mitigating unrest on the conquered world due to continuity of leadership (ethos dependent, an authoritarian ruler might permit a Quisling type to rule a conquered world but an egalitarian empire might try an authoritarian ruler for the crimes they've committed).
  • Similarly, you could then have a huge number of tech, traditions, civics and traits that could interact with some of the above, like a "deep mantle redoubt" tech which gives your leaders a huge chance to survive a planetary invasion/bombardment and allows them to survive and resume their duties once a world is recaptured (and/or they surrender once the war is over), or having the domination tree give a "military governors" tradition which makes planetary rulers count as generals in defensive invasion combat, increasing their chances of dying substantially as they lead their men from the front.
  • Whats the word on gene modding, are we going to be able to granulate what we mod down to a more refined degree than we currently can (that is, mod by strata, job, planet, etc instead of just planet)?
  • Have you thought about making the origins civics part of planet selection and keeping the rest of the being government related, as "living on a post nuclear hellhole" isn't really that government related. similarly, are their any plans to implement civics which can only be added after the start of the game, once certain cultural, civilizational or technological milestones have been made, like a materialist empire transitioning into a pseudo rogue servator empire when they unlock selfaware AI as they leave all the running of the government to the AI, or a where once every social strata has been modded to be a different species you can unlock a civic where you become like the government from gattica/brave new world, stratified along class/occupation with your genes predetermined to fit societies needs before your birth.
Well, thanks in advance, cheers.
Mate!

That's quite a list of questions. Can I suggest posting these in an individual thread. Otherwise it will just get lost in the maelstrom of queries and comments.
 
We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

i would suggest a different method for different civics . for example empire with guilds or feudal society could build a special building that alow to get a % of the tax on general goods ; while other empires are more "centralization" focus , with the starbase sistems.
 
Why GC cant have trade routes?
Is there ability to creates trade routes between epires? And if so, could GC have that kind of pact?
 
Why GC cant have trade routes?

Trade routes represent the private sector; basically, you're not getting everything that your citizens are producing, only a fraction of it in the form of tariffs/taxes/government holdings/etc.

In hiveminds and machine empires, there is no private sector; you're already getting 100% of the resources that your drones/robots produce, which is represented by the additional worker pop per resource district.
 
Doesn't this make energy districts completely superfluous and unnecessary?

Energy districts are probably better at generating energy per worker than trade value, they also have the advantage of being piracy free. Trade value jobs like clerks are uncapped so if you've filled out all your capped jobs you can decide to create a bunch of clerks (or similar) for extra energy or use them for other purposes like enforcement or the military.
 
While I am a bit disappointed that this system does not cover international trade, I recognize that balancing a system that works well for both internal and international trade at the same time is extremely difficult to do without ending up with a civ-like system of "Internal routes give you food/production while external routes give you gold", which doesn't make much sense from an immersion point of view. There is a little bit of a contradiction between "Both sides of a trade agreement should benefit!" and "...But it shouldn't make sense to grant independence to a lot of 1-system trade-vassals so I can have external routes!".

I am also curious what happens to planets/deposits that are in collection range of multiple star bases. Can we decide which starbase gets them? If no, then we might have to be very careful about overlapping trade hubs.
 
Can we build Trade Hub Modules on starbases that don't have colonies in their system then?
 
So it seems as though you might want to build your city planets as close to your capital system as possible. Widely scattered city planets means longer trade routes and more systems you need to cover with anti-pirate patrols. If you can keep your city planets within capture range of your home system starbase, you can get by without trade routes at all.

Edit: Though with gateways, having short effective trade routes between all of your city planets would be a lot easier.
 
And about privateering?

Will be possible to sort some of your ships to privateer a trade route without a DoW?

They could be similar to current pirate ships, hostile to the empire that is being pirated, with a limited number of size (Privateering force limit?) that transfer that amount of TP and their income to your empire.
 
We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

Strictly speaking, additional collection points would be helpful for situations where your empire is split up. I frequently run out of space to expand, and have to expand beyond another empire's borders (normally fallen empires when the galaxy generator boxes me in a corner behind them, and I can't fight them early in the game of course), so always needing to go to the capital would be a huge problem for me in that situation.

I suppose if an area is cut off from the capital you could make it so an alternative collection point is established, but that'd probably just encourage leaving disjointed parts of your empire.

Personally I'd make it so you can establish additional collection points, but all collection points (including the capital) only collect a percentage of the trade equal to the percentage of all exploited trade in your empire. So if your Capital collects from only 50% of your empires exploited trade, you only get 50% of the trade income in the capital. If a distant collection point is the end-node for 80% of your empire's exploited trade, then it collects 80% of the trade there. So you still want to direct all the trade toward one specific collection point if you can, but you're not screwed or rewarded for being cut in half.

But what's your plan for empires systems that are dis-connected?
 
@Wiz

Looks amazing! I'm excited for the new patch. One thing I was curious about, you mentioned trade would be visible in system? Can you talk more about that yet? One of my favorite features of a bygone game was the more trade you had, the more little merchant ships moved in and out of your system. Are you thinking something like that, or more just a line indicating trade in/out?