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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
2018_09_27_1.png

In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
2018_09_27_1_2.png


Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
2018_09_27_2.png

(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
2018_09_27_3.png


Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
2018_09_27_4.png

(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
Last edited:

fodazd

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Also, after thinking about it a bit more I have a balance concern: If the best you can do with trade value is to convert it into energy credits 1:1, then I don't think it's strong enough to make up for all the advantages the gestalt empires get.
 

Haltin

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One last question: Will there be a "demand" at all? If we just have so much trade values, wouldn't our capital be not enough to demand all these trade goods at all? What excess production may go to waste? Or will our capitals be the bottomless end node so we just don't even need to think about it anymore?

They're not trade routes, they're tax collection routes. They're the routes along which your space treasure galleons are delivering the plunder of the distant worlds to your capital.
 

Verx90

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Also, after thinking about it a bit more I have a balance concern: If the best you can do with trade value is to convert it into energy credits 1:1, then I don't think it's strong enough to make up for all the advantages the gestalt empires get.

are you considering that you can use those extra energy to buy resource from your internal market ? and that gestalt will have only that much energy income?
 

RoverStorm

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Also, after thinking about it a bit more I have a balance concern: If the best you can do with trade value is to convert it into energy credits 1:1, then I don't think it's strong enough to make up for all the advantages the gestalt empires get.
He said that's the default ratio. I imagine that's the baseline for empires that don't really have a lot of "Free trade" (think authoritarians). I imagine that things such as being egalitarian or the corporate dominion civic may increase the ratio (calling 1:1 screams "percentage modifiers!"), and/or convert a portion of it into other resources (he listed consumer goods as one).
 

fodazd

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are you considering that you can use those extra energy to buy resource from your internal market ? and that gestalt will have only that much energy income?

Yes, I am considering that. I could be wrong of course, but I think that +50% to all resources, not having to do civilian manufacturing, bonus housing and efficiency/growth will be more powerful than that.


He said that's the default ratio. I imagine that's the baseline for empires that don't really have a lot of "Free trade" (think authoritarians). I imagine that things such as being egalitarian or the corporate dominion civic may increase the ratio (calling 1:1 screams "percentage modifiers!"), and/or convert a portion of it into other resources (he listed consumer goods as one).

We'll see I guess, but right now with the information in the DDs it looks like gestalts will be really, really strong compared to regular empires.
 

Haltin

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We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.

Since all the trade routes point towards your capital, they end up looking a bit like a nervous system. So why not make them just that to Gestalts? Colonies and facilities inside signal coverage (trade collection area connected by trade routes to capital) get stability and production bonuses, those outside it get penalized.
 

Tavior

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@Wiz

Hmm. I have been sit here thinking for a bit.

You say that trade primarily generate energy, assuming normal empire, right?

If I was playing on 1.21 and building wide empire. I usually don't lack energy, machine empire on the other hand a different story, to endless enact energy-based edicts and purchase all stuff from curator/trade enclave.

Going to 1.22 lets say that energy generated vs consume ratio stay roughly the same. Why do I need the extra energy generated from trade routes? Are you going to raise energy cost of some stuff?

The only time I can think of where energy cost is going up is buying rare good that you are short on a monthly basis. From the teaser last night.
DoB49aNWsAA0hEL.jpg

Each planets will be capable of forward 274 trade value. What is going to stop us tall players from ditching mining/farm colonies?
 

JT_Sovereign

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@Wiz

Hmm. I have been sit here thinking for a bit.

You say that trade primarily generate energy, assuming normal empire, right?

If I was playing on 1.21 and building wide empire. I usually don't lack energy, machine empire on the other hand a different story, to endless enact energy-based edicts and purchase all stuff from curator/trade enclave.

Going to 1.22 lets say that energy generated vs consume ratio stay roughly the same. Why do I need the extra energy generated from trade routes? Are you going to raise energy cost of some stuff?

The only time I can think of where energy cost is going up is buying rare good that you are short on a monthly basis. From the teaser last night.
DoB49aNWsAA0hEL.jpg

Each planets will be capable of forward 274 trade value. What is going to stop us tall players from ditching mining/farm colonies?

Presumably trade hubs will no longer generate energy on their own. Energy districts will probably be enough to cover building maintenance, and trade is how you'll actually make a profit in order to buy resources, enclave services, etc.
 

Borgratz

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Maybe the endproduct will be more complex/I'm missing something, but that sounds like creating new traderoutes is just "connect new starbase to neartest old starbase",
As in more of a chore that could happen automaticly instead of a strategic gameplay decision.

Other than that this sounds great :) Especially how this is making piracy a bit more interesting.
 

Wenla

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I understand that beeing a Robot Empire I can't trade with meatbags, but can I trade with other Robot Empires ( if I find one…)?

Can we get (even a slight possibility) to meet ever any Robot Enclave? Any kind of? Even some time?

"Bad Robot, and that's why a lonely one"
 

Verx90

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@Wiz

Hmm. I have been sit here thinking for a bit.

You say that trade primarily generate energy, assuming normal empire, right?

If I was playing on 1.21 and building wide empire. I usually don't lack energy, machine empire on the other hand a different story, to endless enact energy-based edicts and purchase all stuff from curator/trade enclave.

Going to 1.22 lets say that energy generated vs consume ratio stay roughly the same. Why do I need the extra energy generated from trade routes? Are you going to raise energy cost of some stuff?

The only time I can think of where energy cost is going up is buying rare good that you are short on a monthly basis. From the teaser last night.
DoB49aNWsAA0hEL.jpg

Each planets will be capable of forward 274 trade value. What is going to stop us tall players from ditching mining/farm colonies?

wouldn't this mean depending in evrything on the market? ... pops need other resource to work, so you produce them yourself or use the market . in early and midgame i can't see you renuncing production district just to spam trade value that would become energy only if you can protect them .

if you are building tall, you may find yourself with the need of few resources , and you could possibiliy go full trade value . but wide empire will need to build stations, fleets to protect the long trade routes ( energy - alloys upkeep) over all other difficulties ...

and i think they wanted to add some energy credit to allow for an active use of the market , if you are actualy going for a full trade power empire, you will need to buy alot of resources . if there are not producer empire, the galatic market price will go up and up .
 

Verx90

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Maybe the endproduct will be more complex/I'm missing something, but that sounds like creating new traderoutes is just "connect new starbase to neartest old starbase",
As in more of a chore that could happen automaticly instead of a strategic gameplay decision.

Other than that this sounds great :) Especially how this is making piracy a bit more interesting.

i'm ending up spamming because evryone write while i write .... i've to refresh the page before posting....

it is automatic at the start . no reason to twist it too much in early game. but with the progress of the game and new colony starting , you may want to select a sistem in between the colonies to take all the trade value to send home . so , you may find yourself needing to change trade routes .

since you may want to try and focus all the trade routes on 1 route, to make it more easy to patrol with your fleet . many small vein that go to a main artery.
 

tokyocityblues

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Plundering trade routes is something we want to do but haven't yet figured out exactly how it will work. At the very least you can cut their routes by targeting starbases.

One option might be as simple as your fleet occupying the route disrupts the trade route and cuts off/ plunders X amount while occupying that position. That's something that could also be further developed in specific policies or techs that allow for greater protection for routes or great plunder while occupying routes.

So, in a war one tactic might eventually be to blockade or disrupt trade so severely that perhaps a sector is thrown into upheaval or revolt or the empire suffers economic losses as blockades take their toll.

It might be an interesting mechanic beyond the straight war of attrition.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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Is there any way we can do trade deals with other empires now so these systems are not so isolated?

Two friendly empires should be able to open their respective private markets with each other and in most cases they should both benefit from it. One such bonus could be that you generated some Consumer Goods from that trade to boost the living standard in your empire.

In my opinion there are too little reasons to be friendly with other empires from an economic standpoint in general, this need to change.
 

Lilium Atratum

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I am not sure if I like the system. You have trade routers, with civilian ships that you actually never see as it is done automatically. You have have pirates that diminish the efficiency of a trade route, but you will never see an actual pirate ship. You have patrols, that actually do nothing but put your fleet in a special state. You have starbases that offer virtual protection against virtual pirates....
OK, I hope I don't rant too much, but you get the idea, right? It becomes a number game with no actual substance in the game.

On the other hand, it may be an interesting tool to increase the usefulness of Tributaries by imposing strong taxes on your subjects.
 

Devanor

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Question! Weren't pirates meant to dissuade player from claiming systems in a line as it would increase the amount of pirate spawn from the increased ownerless border systems?
 

delrac

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What if systems that are connected to a trade route got a buff to production and maintenece (proportionet to the efficiency of the trade route) as a way to simulate the benefit of a functioning stellar infrastructure. A gestalt consciousness could additionally recive a penalty to deviance in lieu of a trade conection (or neural uplink for flavour).