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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
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1815+ borders are never going to be more important than borders valid between 1444 and 1793. You can't have both unless you create some micro provinces.
I agree that the 1444 borders should generally be prioritised. However, at least on the Prussian side of the whole "let's eat Poland" deal, there's nothing stopping you from having the 1444 borders, all three partitions and the Congress of Vienna borders. It's only when you start wanting the Interwar borders as well that things get really complicated. You might have to make some small abstractions to make both the first partition and the 1806/1807 Duchy of Warsaw borders possible though. It also does not take into account Toruń not being transferred to Prussia with the rest of the Chełmno Land in the first partition. This is of course only true if you disregard the internal Polish borders completely. Preserving those as well as all the external border changes makes everything infinitely more complex.
The Russian side is also quite easy to implement. The problem is the Austrian side and the borders of the County of Bełz in 1444. Those don't exactly fit together very well.
Also, to be consistent, you'd have to apply that claim to the western borders of the German Empire.
As it should be :)
 
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You also have to increase the max_provinces count in default.map and edit the positions using the nudge tool.

Technically, there is nothing stopping you from doing this, but it is definitely not recommended.

Thanks the last time I map modded EU IV lies years back and I don't remember all. :D
Primary I was just trying to point out in which way we could assist to developer in such manner. And I'm confident the moment I would start modding I would remember every thing, at least when the mod crashes the game in the first test. But I sincere appreciate your efforts to help my memory blop up again. Thanks :)
 
Other than map changes, would you guys consider adding some fun mechanisms unique to the region?

For example there was a system called Imperial Circle in HRE, could you add more dynamics within a Circle?
 
Oh and I should also point out that the culture currently know as Westphalian should be called low saxon. Heck even Hannoverian (that it used to be) was better than Westphalian.
 
Also consider splitting Schleswig into 2 provinces: German Flensburg and Danish Aabenraa.
While splitting Slesvig can make sense, then I'm not sure how to best do it. Plus, what made you think that Aabenraa and Flensborg were good names? I'd say that Sønderborg would be better for the northern one as the castle there was super important and strong in this time period.
For the southern one it obviously should be Slesvig, as the city of Slesvig lies in the south and was the most important city.
Remember that the area actually is the province of Southern Jutland which then ended up being commonly known as Slesvig due to the importance of Slesvig. Not having the southern province named Slesvig would be a huge historical error in my opinion.

Also, Flensborg was a Danish bastion, all the way up to 1864. So having that German never would make sense. Aabenraa on the other hand was part of the ducal parts.
Though, in the games time frame both provinces should be Danish culture as the cultural change only happened in the 1800s, Svansen aside.
Not really sure what your motivations for having half the province German are as it was firmly Danish culture in 1444 and remained it for most of the games time frame.

Map_SLH-1650dansk.png



With regard to how to split it, if it should be split, then splitting it in a northern and a southern one probably makes the most sense, though and east west split could make sense too. Though to be frank then if any of the Danish provinces were to be split, Slesvig wouldn't be at the top of my list.
 
While splitting Slesvig can make sense, then I'm not sure how to best do it. Plus, what made you think that Aabenraa and Flensborg were good names? I'd say that Sønderborg would be better for the northern one as the castle there was super important and strong in this time period.
For the southern one it obviously should be Slesvig, as the city of Slesvig lies in the south and was the most important city.
Remember that the area actually is the province of Southern Jutland which then ended up being commonly known as Slesvig due to the importance of Slesvig. Not having the southern province named Slesvig would be a huge historical error in my opinion.

Also, Flensborg was a Danish bastion, all the way up to 1864. So having that German never would make sense. Aabenraa on the other hand was part of the ducal parts.
Though, in the games time frame both provinces should be Danish culture as the cultural change only happened in the 1800s, Svansen aside.
Not really sure what your motivations for having half the province German are as it was firmly Danish culture in 1444 and remained it for most of the games time frame.

Map_SLH-1650dansk.png



With regard to how to split it, if it should be split, then splitting it in a northern and a southern one probably makes the most sense, though and east west split could make sense too. Though to be frank then if any of the Danish provinces were to be split, Slesvig wouldn't be at the top of my list.

I would personally split it three way. Abenraa I would pick for the north, but haderslev or sonderburg works as well all seem relatively important. Schleswig for the south definitely. In the west one could argue for North Frisia while not that important it would add a bit of flavor to the area as a frisian culture province.

Personally I Think beyond Typus has a very decent way of splitting it.
 
Tyrol province is pretty big, splitting it up to create Voralberg might be worth suggesting. The region was owned by the Counts of Monfort, a fairly powerful family around lake Constance who also controlled Bregenz and Tettnang. The inhabitants of Voralberg are Alemannic speaking and have a much longer history interacting with the peoples of Switzerland than they did with Austria (who annexed Voralberg in 1525). This strong connection can be highlighted in 1919 when 80% voted to leave Austria and become a Canton of Switzerland (this was blocked by the Entente, the Austrian Government, Swiss Italians and Swiss French).
 
I would personally split it three way. Abenraa I would pick for the north, but haderslev or sonderburg works as well all seem relatively important. Schleswig for the south definitely. In the west one could argue for North Frisia while not that important it would add a bit of flavor to the area as a frisian culture province.

Personally I Think beyond Typus has a very decent way of splitting it.
Why Aabenraa? Now, I'll admit that Sønderjylland isn't the part of the country I know most about, but I still know quite a bit and I can't really seem to find a reason that Aabenraa is more important than Sønderborg, Haderslev, or Flensborg (the provinces should be split so that Flensborg is in the northern one, I'd say. Using the modern border to split it, if it's to be split, makes no sense in this time period.)
Haderslev had the bishop IIRC and it was from Haderslev that it was decided that the northern bishopric was to use Danish in church (Ribe aside, then there were two bishoprics in Sønderjylland. Slesvig and IIRC Haderslev.) Slesvig opted for German church language and the later division in whether people had German of Danish allegiance when the nationalism of the mid 1800s hit pretty much followed the border between the two bishoprics.

So that would support Haderslev, if Sønderborg isn't used. Flensborg perhaps also, given how important it was and how it remained one of the strongest bastions of Danishness until the theft of the land in 1864.

A split in three would be utterly overkill when one compared with the other Danish provinces. In particular Jutland arguably has too many provinces compared to the isles, so splitting one of the Jutlandic provinces in three makes little sense. Not that the peninsula can't support it development/wealth wise, because it can. But because historically you only could truly defeat Denmark if you took the isles. Hence the isles needs to war score wise be significant enough that the AI never gives up any Danish land without the isles being taken.
Heck, even in 1864 it only was when the Prussians took the island of Als, and hence proved they potentially could take the other Danish isles too, that the Danish government capitulated.

Anyway, if Slesvig/Sønderjylland is to be split in three, and being a rich area it could support it, with the above caveat warscorewise, then splitting off Friesland makes little sense, both as it never really had much significance, but also, and most importantly, it'd need to be a weird province only connected to one province, or something like that. E.g. only connected to the southern one. Since the marshes just aren't well suited for moving armies and you'd always take the eastern routes instead of going through the marshes. There's a reason that Dannevirke, the historical border wall of Denmark, stopped at the marshes, just south of Slesvig city. So you'd need to prevent that province from being used to invade Jutland. Arguably you also shouldn't be able to land an army there, albeit Tønning did develop into a big port by 1864 and if it already was big during the games period then perhaps. But it's a bit dicey.
There also is how adding a new culture for a single province would be bad, or would you merge North Frisian into the current Frisian culture, in which case I think it makes less sense than just having two Danish provinces.


No idea how Beyond Typus splits it. Could you share a screenshot of the split?
 
It's a bit ironic talking about how to further subdivide a region who's motto is "Forever undivided".
True, though that river already was crossed when Holsten was added as a province back in EU3. And Dithmarschen exists too, so the undivided has gone out the window.
 
True, though that river already was crossed when Holsten was added as a province back in EU3. And Dithmarschen exists too, so the undivided has gone out the window.
Yeah I know it was mostly a joke.
 
Why Aabenraa? Now, I'll admit that Sønderjylland isn't the part of the country I know most about, but I still know quite a bit and I can't really seem to find a reason that Aabenraa is more important than Sønderborg, Haderslev, or Flensborg (the provinces should be split so that Flensborg is in the northern one, I'd say. Using the modern border to split it, if it's to be split, makes no sense in this time period.)
Haderslev had the bishop IIRC and it was from Haderslev that it was decided that the northern bishopric was to use Danish in church (Ribe aside, then there were two bishoprics in Sønderjylland. Slesvig and IIRC Haderslev.) Slesvig opted for German church language and the later division in whether people had German of Danish allegiance when the nationalism of the mid 1800s hit pretty much followed the border between the two bishoprics.

So that would support Haderslev, if Sønderborg isn't used. Flensborg perhaps also, given how important it was and how it remained one of the strongest bastions of Danishness until the theft of the land in 1864.

A split in three would be utterly overkill when one compared with the other Danish provinces. In particular Jutland arguably has too many provinces compared to the isles, so splitting one of the Jutlandic provinces in three makes little sense. Not that the peninsula can't support it development/wealth wise, because it can. But because historically you only could truly defeat Denmark if you took the isles. Hence the isles needs to war score wise be significant enough that the AI never gives up any Danish land without the isles being taken.
Heck, even in 1864 it only was when the Prussians took the island of Als, and hence proved they potentially could take the other Danish isles too, that the Danish government capitulated.

Anyway, if Slesvig/Sønderjylland is to be split in three, and being a rich area it could support it, with the above caveat warscorewise, then splitting off Friesland makes little sense, both as it never really had much significance, but also, and most importantly, it'd need to be a weird province only connected to one province, or something like that. E.g. only connected to the southern one. Since the marshes just aren't well suited for moving armies and you'd always take the eastern routes instead of going through the marshes. There's a reason that Dannevirke, the historical border wall of Denmark, stopped at the marshes, just south of Slesvig city. So you'd need to prevent that province from being used to invade Jutland. Arguably you also shouldn't be able to land an army there, albeit Tønning did develop into a big port by 1864 and if it already was big during the games period then perhaps. But it's a bit dicey.
There also is how adding a new culture for a single province would be bad, or would you merge North Frisian into the current Frisian culture, in which case I think it makes less sense than just having two Danish provinces.


No idea how Beyond Typus splits it. Could you share a screenshot of the split?

So this is a quick one, cause I dont have that much time, but this is how Beyond Typus 11 has it, with the beautiful Beyond Typus Projection :p
 

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So this is a quick one, cause I dont have that much time, but this is how Beyond Typus 11 has it, with the beautiful Beyond Typus Projection :p
Thanks. I think that's a bad split, primarily since it allows you to get to the northern province through Nordfriedland, thereby bypassing the eastern side. When in reality it wasn't possible to march an army up through the marshes of Nordfriesland, which is why Dannevirke only covered the eastern part of the area.
Dannevirke.english.png


Plus as mentioned I'm not sure if Tønning had much importance before the 1800s. After all it got big on trading with England, and that didn't take off until then IIRC.
And having a one province culture isn't too good either.

If Slesvig is to be three provinces then I'd rather have Haderslev and Slesvig be the two main ones and a Sønderborg one to the side, to represent the Sønderborg line. Though I still think that having three is too much.

The province borders on your map also seems to follow modern borders, which is bad, as the current border is the result of wars in the 19th and 20th century. Rather, I'd move it more down in the east so that Flensborg and arguably Lyksborg too are in the northern one.
Tønder might make sense to have in the southern one, but that's mainly based on how they voted in 1920.
Having the island of Sild in the northern province also can make a good deal of sense.

Anyway, unless there's a good reason for calling the northern one Aabenraa, like in your screenshot, then I'd really not use that name as Haderslev, Flensborg, and Sønderborg seems way more fitting. Though perhaps there is a good reason for Aabenraa, but so far I haven't seen it at least.