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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
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jrgen3

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I'm not saying that it would be nice to have better HRE borders so that Ottonian or Hohenstaufen rule conditions could be returned looking more accurate or that the Napoleonic Confed. of the Rhine and French Empire borders and that an early 1871 border for Germany and France should be implemented to look more historical in later ages but it would be quite nice to have all of these things and besides that a more fitting government for the one nation HRE or Germany to make forming them more appealing ...
I definitely agree with the borders of the French Empire and the German Empire. No province should cross the Rhine except maybe Guelders. That way you can recreate the French Empire. To get accurate Imperial German borders, you only really need to reshape a few provinces in (modern day) France and Poland.
 

Achiles

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I hope to see the HRE move towards being more of a single nation with a complex internal structure, occilating back and forth on level of decentralization. I don't like the current system where the member states are treated like any other nations, but with this extra special set of modifiers and mechanics. I this could be part of a general improvement in the complexity and nature of relationships between overlords and vassal states. Where the metropole and the constituencies interact with each other through one set of mechanics and interact with outsiders through another.
 

Mirarkkthur

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Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

View attachment 461065

As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

I wouldn't feel bad if I were you. There are even inaccuracies in this map, that challenge historical accurate "timemade" sources. In Germany we call them "Zeitgenössisch" which just means they were made from people who lived at that point of time of which they tell us. For the medival era this are mostly monks, but I hope my make-up "timemade" will fullfill the understanding of it.

The inaccuracy I see already in this map is about the Vogtland. We have sources from the Voigtsberg archive, the central castle of this particular regions which is now a museum, that tell us how the Vogtlands (=the land of the Voigts, decented from that mountain, where the castle is located, in todays-town Oelsnitz i.V.) borders looked like. We also have states that the Voigts joined the Bohemian after a full hussitic assault of the southern free city of their lands (Plauen) in 1337. After the Vogtland wars the territory was handed over to Saxony in 1357, but remained (like the Lausitz) a hotspot of influencetrouble. Far before the start date of EU IV (1444). The hussite raides interesstingly enough decreased after this too, even that Bohemia saw Saxony as a rival and threat til the treaty of Cheb. NOTE: There is much more to this story, but I don't wanna go into to much detail, which propably all fans of the mod won't even read.

Also we have sources that the Vogtland mostly helped during the kidnap of the Saxon princes. (2 x prince, no females)
In this event following the saxon brother war (the one with Thuringia - even included in your game) the town of Plauen and the rest of the Vogtland made great efforts leading to the rescue that way. The main black knight (Kunz von Kauffingen) was catched by oremountainers, but well his companions were catched by the Vogtlanders. (They surrendered after finding no way out and receiving note that Kunz was captured in the oremountains. In exchange for the prince they only got exiled but left alive.)
As Zwickau did not participate in the rescue, it got punished and removed as capital of the province, making its rival Plauen the new capital of the province. (I think this is also already in your game) NOTE: Zwickau always was the border town of the region, some maps of the time show it within, some maps of the time don't. No possibility to check for the truth.

In this particular part the map is just wrong. And who knows which other parts may be inaccurate. Constructing a map of the time of Germany should be an easy task thou, as all you need is to travel to the tons of castles which are mostly nowadays musseums and look it up. But as there are many you can lose your overview quickly too.

I don't have the mod, so I don't know if one of the following led to this map (mostly eventreasons):
  • Puting the high-Vogtland (south of Plauen) to Saxony gives the possibility of shadowing the prince-kidnap without the need of including events for a perhaps vassal, ingame.
  • Vogtland could be set as loyal vassal to fullfil the tale of Harald of Plauen, who rivaled the Voigtsberg by setting the major castle to Mylau.
  • Another neccessary reason of game mechanics.
Long explaination short resume:

I fully can back-up your decision to keep it simplified, for 3 mainreasons:
  • Many people will see your game as an accurate source and it might contain more errors that could backfire.
  • Additional EUIVs graphics of buildings and so on won't be abled to handle a 300-400 provinces HRE mess. (Every of this could reach 50+ dev and a fortress. it would make other provinces look ugly oversized as well.)
  • It will "break" the game:
    • by requirements (every war will use more CPU and GPU even if you cant see it),
    • ingame mechanic/ balancing (think on the overpowered region with all the mechanics, - would be better to consider it for the world in like EUV)
I also fully understand the players. It would be fun to conquer more. And even a stronger HRE, which because of its strenght didn't get conquered before Napoleon. But just think one moment on level 7 of HRE reforms (Revoke the priviledge). If the HRE is abled to keep his somewhat 300 small states alive till this point, I don't think any GPU can handle it, I know my GPU gets into trouble when this happens with 65 princes. ;)
 
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NikZ

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People have called for buffing Austria, making it relevant again.
This could be done while also giving some more realism to the region: introducing the Counts of Celje, who were for a period formally vassals of the Habsburgs, then, under Herman II, managed to marry into the Imperial dynasty (the Count's daughter married the Emperor Sigismund of Luxemburg) and even achieve the status of Princes of the Empire, making them de facto answerable only to the Emperor. Ulrik II married into the Serbian royal family, becoming the husband of the sister of the Ottoman Sultan's favourite wife - the Sultan then ordered his subordinates to desist from attacking the Count's lands. Ulrik II also became the regent and Captain General of Hungary, thus wielding a considerable amount of power.
Now, granted, they had a very short run in the high politics of the HRE and the dynasty became completely obliterated (in the legitimate line, that is: there are hordes of people living in the broader surroundings of Celje today who have the last name Knez, meaning "Prince", who are very likely descended from the illegitimate offspring of the Counts) in 1456. However, by making the County into a tag, the large and awkward county of Krain and the surrounding ones could be broken up into more historical provinces, thus providing some more development for the region, while also providing either a boon or a potential rival to Austria. Hell, given that the Counts had made a contract of mutual inheritance with the Habsburgs, it could also be hard coded that if Frederick III dies without an heir, the Counts of Celje inherit Austria, as would have happened in real life had the Duke died without an heir.
To sum up: buffing Austria, providing some (needed) flavour to the region, while also drastically improving the accuracy of the region. Not to mention making the really substantial Slovene fan-base of the game happy :D
 

Mirarkkthur

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Hell, given that the Counts had made a contract of mutual inheritance with the Habsburgs, it could also be hard coded that if Frederick III dies without an heir, the Counts of Celje inherit Austria, as would have happened in real life had the Duke died without an heir.
To sum up: buffing Austria, providing some (needed) flavour to the region, while also drastically improving the accuracy of the region. Not to mention making the really substantial Slovene fan-base of the game happy :D

I don't think you need to hard code that, as the Forming Union mechanic should already be able to handle it. But they could make it an event so that every nation gets noticed by that. Like they do with Burgund.

Else the idea sounds great, You have my support. :)
 

NikZ

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I don't think you need to hard code that, as the Forming Union mechanic should already be able to handle it. But they could make it an event so that every nation gets noticed by that. Like they do with Burgund.

Else the idea sounds great, You have my support. :)
Or an event or something would be great, giving more flavour and stuff. As a historian (as well as a Slovene :p) I would like the opportunity to introduce these events and just how close the Habsburgs came to extinction. Seeing the castle of Celje every now and then always gets me wondering just how vastly different our local history would be were the Counts of Celje to take the place of the Habsburgs. Of course, there would be no guarantee that they would have been nearly as lucky as the Austrians, but clawing their way right to the political pinnacle and then failing utterly was such a Game of Thrones-y plot twist. If you're interested, there is a novelization of the story of the Counts, called "The counts of Celje today and never again" (not sure if it's available in English though).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Celjski_grofje_ozemlje.PNG
These were their lands (pink are their allodial lands, yellow their feudal possessions). Now it's not exactly a French king's realm, but it is substantial for the region.
 

Yormund

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1024px-Franken-um-800.jpg
I would love to see a formable duchy of "Franken" when you control all the provinces with frankish culture in the starting date. Maybe give them a unique mission tree aswell.
There are multiple attempts by historic figures to reinstate the dutchy, even a prominent one: Albrecht Achilles von Hohenzollern.
From the german Wikipedia: "Albrecht Achilles, Markgraf von Ansbach und Kulmbach, versuchte im 15. Jahrhundert das Herzogtum wiederzubeleben. Die Pläne scheiterten vor allem an der Reichsstadt Nürnberg. So konnte er sich in mehreren Konflikten nicht durchsetzen."
"Albrecht Achilles, Margrave of Ansbach and Kulmbach, tried to revive the duchy in the 15th century. The plans failed especially at the free imperial city of Nuremberg, and so he could not take the upper hand in several conflicts (Nuremberg City War, First Margrave War, Bavarian War)."
Due to Bavaria and Nuremberg it would be hard to form this tag, but it could be rewarding, in regards to a good Idea set and some missions. For example to take Frankfurt, Mainz, Hessen and Baden, since as one can see in the posted picture, they were originally located in the duchy.
Also the original dynasty of the Salians would have some claims to the emperorship, so missions could be designed around that aswell.

Just some ideas I'm spitballing here, as a resident of the beautifull Harz it would be far nicer for me to see Goslars mine implemented:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rammelsberg
 

João Beno

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So, what a fine day to do my first post here... :)

One aspect I didn't saw mentioned often, is the way the HRE always seems to "coalesce" into a 1/2 ~ 1/4 of it's original tag count... If I where to suggest a change in mechanics, it would be to make HRE tags favor more other deals than land... Maybe change some % of certain peace terms between terms, like 20% war reparation instead of 10%, or double the time, or even permanent 10% until war to remove tribute. Give more casus belli to emperor that doesn't allow him to take land, but allow release tag and return land... I'm focusing on small tweaks on existing mechanics and AI behaviors, to keep things simple, but ideas like the leagues mentioned on the previous page could be good too... I think small nations, cities and OPMs should live longer, and AI should be less inclined on blobbing inside HRE...
 

Mirarkkthur

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Or an event or something would be great, giving more flavour and stuff. As a historian (as well as a Slovene :p) I would like the opportunity to introduce these events and just how close the Habsburgs came to extinction. [...]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Celjski_grofje_ozemlje.PNG
These were their lands (pink are their allodial lands, yellow their feudal possessions). Now it's not exactly a French king's realm, but it is substantial for the region.

If you're willing to team up, we could begin creating a flavour mod for Austria/Hungary Regions. The mod will have the standard issue of using colors Paradox never would choose for own provinces but if we keep it coresponding to the game mechanics, meaning not overdoing it with the province mess, that might possibly show up, we have a good change Paradox once will consider it into vanilla.

I think it would be quite a project to work on.
We can do alot over the event structures.

Our mod will need:
  • New countries (each requires 3 new files and an update on several like history, tag and naming)
    • flag in 128x128 tga
    • historyfile including names for the dynasty
    • countryfile for the set up of army,fleetnames, selected units and ideas.
  • New provinces (updates on 3 static files: map; provincelist; provincenames + adding a province history file for province data)
  • perhaps new forms of gouvernments
  • a mission file set, because of favour. (I have no idea right now which missions would be worthy)
  • an event file, for the whole flavour.
  • an update to the idea file or a new one for the mod, which includes all the ideas of every new country of the mod.
  • a marker-to-text file for the mod, they call them localisation if I remember correctly.
  • the modfile, who tells the game to replace the "new" data and use the additional mod data. (standard)
Perhaps right now I forgot something, always possible. All in all its not to complicated to mod the game as Paradox always enpowers people to mod, they kinda like what could be made by their fanbase.

The most difficult thing is to add new provinces and it is this thing that needs to be controlled after every update of Paradox. I might not have the time to track it down, so we might need somebody who has in order to make that mod work for eternity. I didn't check yet if I could use province ids in the 10k even that we are somewhere around 5000 yet or if they must be incrementated. If we could this could spare us some time.
 

Nyanako

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Definitely



Possibly.
To me, the succession crisis and the revolt go hand-in-hand, the revolt should be as a result of the successor power attempting to centralise their reign in the low-lands. By making a smoother succession, for example, burgundy becomes a PU of the successor rather than a land grab (as it was), any attempts to integrate or centralise can trigger a rebellion. Or something like that.

For Burgundy, there should be a successful way to limit or stop the Dutch revolt, for example, completing certain missions, such as changing the court language to Flemish, moving your capital to Burges and recognising the states-general should reduce the chance of Dutch revolt, while absolutist decisions, such as centralising power in the French speaking majority would help increase it. That decision might require branching mission trees, and that could be out-of-scope for this expansion.
 

jrgen3

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New provinces (updates on 3 static files: map; provincelist; provincenames + adding a province history file for province data)
You also have to increase the max_provinces count in default.map and edit the positions using the nudge tool.
I didn't check yet if I could use province ids in the 10k even that we are somewhere around 5000 yet or if they must be incrementated. If we could this could spare us some time.
Technically, there is nothing stopping you from doing this, but it is definitely not recommended.
 

<Archandir>

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I hope you will add Ideas for Germany. It always felt a bit unrewarding to have HRE-related Ideas like Austrian or Bohemian ideas after reforming into Germany or HRE. Would be nice if the National ideas of Germany and HRE would be different, to represent the military or diplomatic way of forming it.
 

qwertzlbry

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Geneva was called the protestant Rome and I think deserves some love. Farel and Calvin both preached in Geneva. Geneva grew a lot also because it took religious refugees from France at that time. For the economical part, Geneva played an important role after the middle age as a commercial, banking and industrial centre (watches were a big part of industries). and Savoy failed to conquer geneva in 1602 and people celebrate it by eating a cooking pot made from chocolat with fake vegetable inside and it's super cute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Escalade
 

KingLouie

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I like the intended changes for Switzerland, with a new tag for Graubünden as well as a new province & tag for Geneva.

I would also like to see a province and tag for Basel, as it was (and still is) an important city. In order to have enough space for this province you could downsize the wastelands in the alps of Bern and Valais/Wallis and shift those provinces a bit to the south. Another interesting tag would be St. Gallen, as it wasn't part of the old confederation at the time.

The majority of the province of Valais/Wallis was independent in 1444 and allied with Bern/Switzerland. With the changes for the passes in the alpes, the "Republik der sieben Zehnden" (or just "Wallis"/"Valais") could be implemented. With a allience at the start with Switzerland, this would also balance the power between Savoy and Switzerland a bit.
 

Pbhuh

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You also have to increase the max_provinces count in default.map and edit the positions using the nudge tool.

Technically, there is nothing stopping you from doing this, but it is definitely not recommended.
There is no issue with province counts above 10k. The biggest problem atm in terms of lag is armies and ai handling them, large endgame empires cause severe lag.
But also too many opms with seperate armies cause lag.
 

Keiser Rafael Carl

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  • Please give more love to the Rhineland. You could add some of the major industrial hubs, like Essen, Dortmund, or Darmstadt. I also feel like the area needs more coal.
  • I personally find the province of Ruppin huge, and would love for it to be split up. This would also buff Brandenburg a bit, who seems to die in most of my games.
  • Silesian culture should be split into two, one Germanic and one Slavic, with the Germanic one being in Glogau, Liegnitz and Breslau, and the Slavic one being in Ratibor (another province that would benefit from being split).
  • A representation of the Sudeten Germans would also be great, as they inhabited the Sudetenland since the beginning of the HRE.
  • South-Tyrol should be Austrian culture.
  • Some other provinces that could use some splitting are: Tirol, Braunschweig, Thüringen, Pfalz, Mainz, Augsburg, Ravensburg, Wien.
  • Also consider splitting Schleswig into 2 provinces: German Flensburg and Danish Aabenraa.

  • I hope to see changes to the Baltic region as well, especially the province of Livland, wich should be 2 provinces, one Latvian and one Estonian. It contains 3 major Estonian cities (Pärnu/Pernau, Valga/Valka, and Viljandi/Fellinn) and should not be classified as entirely Latvian. PS. Please restore the Finno-Ugric culture group, it is sad to see Karelian in the Slavic group, and the others scattered. I would love to see more Finno-Ugric cultures overall.
  • PPS. Are you planning on ever making more National Monuments dlc? I would love some more eyecandy on the map in Germany especially (my favourite region to play in). I would be willing to pay a good couple of ducats for that! ;)
Thank you for reading and I would really appreciate it if my ideas were taken into consideration! Keep making EU4 even cooler!
 

myzael

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How about tweaking polish provinces so we could again have pretty borders of German Empire in the east. After polish patch its no longer possible and I think it hurts group if people aiming for nore historical or just good looking borders
1815+ borders are never going to be more important than borders valid between 1444 and 1793. You can't have both unless you create some micro provinces.

Also, to be consistent, you'd have to apply that claim to the western borders of the German Empire.
 

jrgen3

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There is no issue with province counts above 10k. The biggest problem atm in terms of lag is armies and ai handling them, large endgame empires cause severe lag.
But also too many opms with seperate armies cause lag.
That is not what I was talking about? I was talking about adding province IDs in the 10k+ area to not conflict with future vanilla province additions instead of just building off the vanilla max province number. Setting the max_provinces count considerably higher than vanilla is possible, but like I said, not recommended. As far as I know, the game will still generate those unused provinces, and even if the game doesn't use them in any calculations (note: Not sure if it does or doesn't; I don't know how this is implemented in the game), it might still take up some processing power and/or RAM.
 

fr-rein

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1815+ borders are never going to be more important than borders valid between 1444 and 1793. You can't have both unless you create some micro provinces.
That's not true.
There is no reason for current province borders for Moldavia (both 1815+ and normal ones) and especially in Suceava, Ruthenian borders are a half-fantasy, Wild Field doesn't exist (even though borders there were stable, international ones existing over a century on Commonwealth's border). The borders which made partition borders are not followed even where it is possible AND matches with administrative divisions.
Lwow and surrounding area are outside of Lwow province.
And a bunch other things that are wrong with that map.
I don't even mention that rivers are wrong in vanilla at times.

And none of the issues is addressed, mentioned or fixed, ignored since around release of the map. But even for the softer issues, like with Notec, fixes were done in a wrong way.

In short, what is the possible reason that 1793+ borders were ignored, especially in places where they were possible to make, like on border of PLC and Zaporozhia (marking a start of Wild Field) or for Suceava?