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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
Last edited:

Mindel

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I feel that one of the design features preventing EU4 from accurately modeling the HRE (amongst other things) is the fact that almost all alliances in the game are bilateral, rather than multilateral. If someone attacks X, each power allied to X decides for itself whether or not to pitch in and help defend. Among great powers, this way of modeling alliances works fine.

But another kind of alliance which rarely appears in EU4 is the kind where a large number of minor powers band together into a semi-permanent alliance bloc to form a common defense (or perhaps even offense). Historically, this is what the Swiss confederacy is. The only examples I see in the game are trade leagues and the HRE itself, where an attack on any one member triggers a common defense. Coalitions are another variant of this, directed toward a specific target.

Imperial leagues (religious or otherwise) give another important historical example. Right now the game has an ad hoc implementation of religious leagues that can occur only once, and seems geared more towards sparking a general continental war than serving as defensive alliance blocs, which is what they really were. But leagues should be able to appear across the timeline, not just in the context of the Thirty Years War. There have been religious leagues in the HRE at other times, as well as non-religious ones such as the Swabian league.

None of these are being modeled by the bilateral system of alliances. And I think this is a problem especially for the HRE, since it is formed from many tiny powers. Indeed, the HRE during this timeline is something resembling a giant multilateral defense league.

What the game needs is a general mechanic to implement multilateral systems of alliances. Trade leagues, religious leagues, coalitions, and the HRE system are instances where this is being implemented piecemeal, but I think a more systematic and universal approach is called for.
 

Rocketskates

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maps are cool and all but all these worries about development and provinces and OPMs depend on how you gona change the HRE mechanic, if at all, or what change you will make in the expansion core gameplay wise
currently if you implement smt like this, austria will be even weaker and the AI already cannot get past reform 1, which is odd, you made a rock solid Ming
 

onlybradparker

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I feel that one of the design features preventing EU4 from accurately modeling the HRE (amongst other things) is the fact that almost all alliances in the game are bilateral, rather than multilateral. If someone attacks X, each power allied to X decides for itself whether or not to pitch in and help defend. Among great powers, this way of modeling alliances works fine.

But another kind of alliance which rarely appears in EU4 is the kind where a large number of minor powers band together into a semi-permanent alliance bloc to form a common defense (or perhaps even offense). Historically, this is what the Swiss confederacy is. The only examples I see in the game are trade leagues and the HRE itself, where an attack on any one member triggers a common defense. Coalitions are another variant of this, directed toward a specific target.

Imperial leagues (religious or otherwise) give another important historical example. Right now the game has an ad hoc implementation of religious leagues that can occur only once, and seems geared more towards sparking a general continental war than serving as defensive alliance blocs, which is what they really were. But leagues should be able to appear across the timeline, not just in the context of the Thirty Years War. There have been religious leagues in the HRE at other times, as well as non-religious ones such as the Swabian league.

None of these are being modeled by the bilateral system of alliances. And I think this is a problem especially for the HRE, since it is formed from many tiny powers. Indeed, the HRE during this timeline is something resembling a giant multilateral defense league.

What the game needs is a general mechanic to implement multilateral systems of alliances. Trade leagues, religious leagues, coalitions, and the HRE system are instances where this is being implemented piecemeal, but I think a more systematic and universal approach is called for.

On the last page, I wrote a summary of a very basic idea for an 'Aligned Nations' mechanic/system to go alongside Rivals. I would welcome your input, because I feel with a bit of refining it could answer some of what you're talking about.

I don't see why Luxembourg-sized nations are expected to have three Rivals; the system I suggested would allow for five slots of either Rivals or Aligned Nations. Smaller nations would then be able to align themselves unilaterally with other smaller nations in the same situation as themselves and/or larger nations.

There would be all sorts of possibilities with a system like this with good ideas related to things like AE, coring costs, diplomatic reputation, coalitions, relations bonuses/penalties, etc.

Smaller nations could choose more 'Aligned Nations' to help with defence, whilst larger nations could choose a mix of Rivals/Aligned Nations to best achieve their expansionist goals.
 

Donspagelgetti

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Adding new provinces/nations is one point. But I miss new innovations in the HRE.
Ideas:
- Imperial Circles (Reisekreise)
- German Peasants' War (maybe an other way to unify the German lands)
- Hanseatic League (more mission. maybe colonies in america)
- Build our own palace (thousands little Versailles in Germany)
and much more.
 

Semi-Lobster

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Like a lot of people here have suggested, having Sorbian/Lusatian culture would be a very good addition to the game. I think in general the area could use a little more focus to better represent the region, particularly when it was still part of Bohemia. The administrative division Bohemia governed Lusatia was the Margraviate of Lusatia, divided between Upper Lusatia and Lower Lusatia. I think this would better represent Lusatia as its own state and not split between Saxony and Brandenburg as it currently is as it disincentives Bohemia retaining in as it is. Special town laws given to six towns in Upper Lusatia by the King of Bohemia created the Lusatian League (including taxes guilds and assembling arms, mostly as a direct counter to aggressive robber barons, this is why to this day Upper Lusatia has no castles). Culturally the region was mostly ignored by German migration who preferred the richer lands on Neumark and Silesia. Several towns, such as Bautzen/Budyšin (the largest town in Upper Lusatia), where not even founded by Germans but simply were already there from Wendish times, and even then, Bautzen was only approximately 10,000 people in the 1500s. The Lusatians were a rural people and and most of the total population of Lusatia lived in "cottages", small family owned farms. It was only the advent of rail networks and coal mining in the mid 19th century did German immigration and assimilation begin to rapidly absorb "Wendish" speakers.

I remember way back, so far back I can't even remember where it was said, but IIRC it was mentioned that one of the factors against adding Lusatian culture was that there would only be two provinces that would have it, and that would not be worth adding to the game. If we are adding new provinces though, there are several ways that can be addressed. Most sources affirm that the Lubusz Land (Named after the local Leubuzzi tribe of Veleti Wends who settled the area ) was only fully Germanized in the mid 15th century, the last remaining Slavic city, Küstrin, was not Germanized at the beginning of the 1400s but had been assimilated by the second half of 15th century (approximately shortly after the game begins). This can be represented in-game by having a cultural conversion meter already half-way done in the province. I think this is the least elegant of a solution as the politics of German colonization is "messy" and I would think Paradox might want to avoid it. Additionally the capital of Lubusz Land was Lebus, which was Germanized by the the 1400s. (Die Germanisierung der Slawen in der Mark, Guttmann).

The easier solution would be new provinces out of the relatively (compared to other German provinces) bulky Lusatian provinces, There are several divisions that would work well and perhaps, both can be done, but all that would really be needed is just one additional province to create 3 Sorbian provinces. The first suggestion is in Lower Lusatia. While the crown of Bohemia controlled all of the surrounding area, they did not control all of it for too long after the game starts. Brandenburg purchased the Lordship of the city of Cottbus/Chóśebuz in 1445. The city still retaining a Sorbian culture, as demonstrated by the opening of the city's first Gymnasium "Universitas Serborum" in 1514. The province could be seen as too small, but I think by EU4 standards not too small. The bottom right quadrant of Upper Lusatia could be given to Cottbus to make it more clickable and the new Cottbus province could border Saxony. Politically I think this separation would make the most sense politically as this basically severed Cottbus from the rest of Lusatia but it may not be the most practical due to "clockability"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Země_Koruny_české.jpg

The other option, which may be easiest would be splitting Upper Lusatia in two two provinces, primarily between its two largest towns, Bautzen/Budyšin in the West and Gorlitz/Zhorjelc in the East. Both these towns were part of the Lusatian League of towns and had a rivalry with each other, Bautzen was the capital of the league but Gorlitz was the richest leading to tension between the two cities with the league. Gorlitz was eventually split from Upper Lusatia in 1815 with the Congress of Vienna and given to Prussia. Splitting Upper Lusatia into Bautzen and Gorlitz would allow this possibility to occur and from a gameplay perspective, both provicnes would be large enough to click on.
 
Last edited:

Niro_95

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I'm absolutely supporting this :)
Konstanz' role was much more influential, both politically and ecclesiastically, than the one of Ravensburg. The Council of Konstanz, the Bishopric of Konstanz, the role of Konstanz in the Swabian Circle, the fight over Konstanz during the reformation and Religious League Wars, are just some examples. More you can find in my thread on Konstanz, including a lot of event suggestions and a NI set for both possible tags, the bishopric and the Free city of Konstanz.

Let's have a reason in this wonderful game why Germany's biggest lake is called Lake Constance and not lake Ravensburg ;)


Konstanz (and Hohenzollern): https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-ni-and-events-replacing-ravensburg.1016177/

I strongly support the idea of a tag for Constance.
It alway felt really odd, that Ravensburg was there and Constance not, although the city was a center of trade and surely the most influental city in the region for many reasons with a really old history, filled with the fate of emporers like Barbarossa and Friedrich II and founded by the Romans
As you said, the Lake of Constance is called like that for a reason ;)
I'm actually a city guide for the historical Constance (and a longtime fan of EU4) and as such I can say, that almost all of your suggestions in your thread are correct.

Personally, I would use the tag of a free city.

While it is correct, that the early time of Constance was embossed by the Bishopric, in 1444 there was a different image:
Constance gained it's (kind of) free city status in 1192 and lost it due to the defeat of the Schmalkaldischer Bund in 1548 (after a heroic and victorious last stand on the Rheinbrücke against the Habsburgs). After that Constance was given to Austria and the Bishops were reinstated (although they managed to hold a de facto independent status in most of their affairs), in 1806 it was gifted to Baden by Napoleon.
Between 1192 and 1548 Constance was a hybrid between free city and bishopric, as they payed taxes partly to the emporer and partly to the bishop. Due to their other rights (gifted in 1192 and 1213) like the Münzrecht (Ewiger Pfennig) etc., their jurisdiction and their appearence in external affairs like the Städtebund in 1312 most historians share the opinion, that Constance shuold be categorised as a free city in this time period. After the council this was enhanced, as they gained the right to seal with red wax (technically a royal privilege) and the Blutgerichtsbarkeit (the right for death sentences) in 1417. The red bar in the flag of Constance is a symbol for the Blutgerichtsbarkeit.

If you are interested in the topic, I added a little bit to your thread
 

Lubber

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There has to be done something with Bamberg. I'd prefer it to ba an independent Theocracy (Hochstift Bayern) and will try to make a good case for the devs ;)

But even if it is decided to not include it, I'd really like it to be taken away from Würzburg. Sure, the Bishop of Würzburg held the (basically meaningless) title of "Duke of Franconia". But with that logic, all other areas of the Franconian Circle, in the game especially Nuremberg and Ansbach, would also belong to Würzburg, which doesn't make sense. Currently it just feels kind of arbitrary to put Bamberg to Würzburg, and not Ansbach, for example.

So why make it independent?

The Bishopric in Bamberg was founded in 1007 and became "reichsunmittelbar" around the 1240's. It was an important center of culture during the Baroque, and its city core is a UNESCO World Heritage Site because of its many historical buildings from that time.

Bamberg was (and still is) an important religious site. It has many pilgrimage sites in its area, for example Vierzehnheiligen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_the_Fourteen_Holy_Helpers). Three saints are buried here and Bamberg is the home of the only papal grave north of the Alps.

During the 16th and 17th century, Bamberg became notorious for its witch trials, during the Bamberg with trials from 1595–1633 around 1000 people were tried and executed. The penal code of Bamberg was also the base of the first penal code of the empire, the Constituto Criminalis Carolina of 1532 (see? an idea for a flavor event right there ;) )

But Bamberg wasn't only present in Franconia, they also owned a vast amount in Carinthia, centering around the town of Villach.

Oh, and btw, Napoleon thought that the conquest of the city was important enough to include it on the Arc de Triomphe ;)

All in all, Bamberg was more important than many other states in the empire and deserves independence in the reworked HRE. If you want to read more about it, here's the link to the wiki page of the Hochstift: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince-Bishopric_of_Bamberg
 

Andy38

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That is why you should play Beyond Typus 11.0. The best map mod for EU4.

I do use it a lot, alternating with MEIOU. I sometimes dream of those two mods getting together to create the ultimate map, although things like MEIOU's split provinces (@gigau has a soft spot for Trois-Évêchés) are an... acquired taste.

I laughed at this probably harder than I should've. :)

Of course. The more provinces the merrier :):):)
 

Semi-Lobster

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Very good point in Bamberg, a chunk of their holdings in Carinthia are now in Italy, the eastern Carnic Alps, East of the Pontebba (Pontafel).

Speaking of this region, I know OPMs aren't really wanted but another independent Prince-Bishopric was Brixen, north of Trent.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishopric_of_Brixen
 

jrgen3

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Very good point in Bamberg, a chunk of their holdings in Carinthia are now in Italy, the eastern Carnic Alps, East of the Pontebba (Pontafel).

Speaking of this region, I know OPMs aren't really wanted but another independent Prince-Bishopric was Brixen, north of Trent.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishopric_of_Brixen
I think the Bishopric of Trent should be prioritised. Austria should get the modern day Südtirol province to hold directly. Having Brixen as well would make that part of the map really complicated. It could potentially work, though, depending on how it's implemented.
 

Zetter

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Not a single word on Hesse leaves me a bit sad.

One of the major players in the 16th and early 17th century HRE, yet in current EU4 it's almost always overrun by lesser powers. I think the province suggestions in the HRE thread would make playing Hesse far more interesting. (I'd suggest having Waldeck as a vassal, as it was a fiefdom in that era and giving an event for the inheritance of Katzenelnbogen as it happened in 1479. Maybe also adding events which split Hessen again, as that happened a lot historically)
The province name of Hessen is also very unlucky. The provinces could be renamed to Oberhessen and Niederhessen, as they were called during the split from 1458-1500 and are still called today with the province capitals of Marburg and Cassel (as they are already implemented in the game).

A point which annoys me since it's never been fixed: The capital of Hessen has been Cassel not Marburg since 1277.
Which leads me to my next point: Development between the provinces should be swapped. While I don't have any sources on the economic state of the Landgraviate in the 15th century, both splits of Oberhessen from Niederhessen resulted in Oberhessen or Hesse-Marburg respectively falling back into the hands of Niederhessen or Hesse-Kassel respectively. That should be represented in making the province of Niederhessen more important.

I'm also very interested in hearing updates on free cities. I'm not very pleased by the way they are working in the game currently and just adding more of them won't make it better. While there are free cities which were very important in the era, that was limited to just a few. And they didn't have any way to really expand historically.
The free city of Frankfurt for example, while being an important trading hub, had less than 9000 inhabitants total in 1444. Having them field a standing army of 5000 men is just pure madness. That's more than they had tax paying citizens (around 3000). Compare that to Hesse (in it's entirety), which had a population of around half a million during that time.
I don't think that this is in any way represented by the development currently in the area. Greater Hesse (Including Nassau and Frankfurt) has a development of 39, 18 of which lies in Frankfurt. So this small city is actually the highest development tag in the hessian area, which leads to Frankfurt often beating up the Landgraviate, which is laughably ahistorical.

On exclaves: I believe they should be a feature of playing in the HRE and not negated. Hesse for example was divided by Ziegenhain and Waldeck (both fiefdoms though since a few years before game start). Mainz had territories all over the place, even completely surrounded by Hesse, which were one of the driving factors of the rivalry between the two leading to frequent military conflicts. Trying to include exclaves with maybe corresponding features for the HRE could lead to more interesting gameplay in the area overall, I believe.
 

Creepi0n

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Could you please put the province of Ostfriesland (East Frisia) to the North German region? It's actually not accurate and doesn't look good in my opinion. I hope you notice my comment and I'm already excited for the next update!
 

gigau

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although things like MEIOU's split provinces (@gigau has a soft spot for Trois-Évêchés) are an... acquired taste.
:D

Regarding that part of the Vanilla map, I'd never suggest making a M&T Tois Evéchés province, obviously.... but i would really like @neondt to either rename Metz to Nancy and Nancy to something like Luneville (with small border change)... or give Metz to a Metz bishopric nation. But Metz really shouldn't be owned by Lorraine.
 

bebrst

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I strongly support the idea of a tag for Constance.
It alway felt really odd, that Ravensburg was there and Constance not, although the city was a center of trade and surely the most influental city in the region for many reasons with a really old history, filled with the fate of emporers like Barbarossa and Friedrich II and founded by the Romans
As you said, the Lake of Constance is called like that for a reason ;)
I'm actually a city guide for the historical Constance (and a longtime fan of EU4) and as such I can say, that almost all of your suggestions in your thread are correct.

Personally, I would use the tag of a free city.

While it is correct, that the early time of Constance was embossed by the Bishopric, in 1444 there was a different image:
Constance gained it's (kind of) free city status in 1192 and lost it due to the defeat of the Schmalkaldischer Bund in 1548 (after a heroic and victorious last stand on the Rheinbrücke against the Habsburgs). After that Constance was given to Austria and the Bishops were reinstated (although they managed to hold a de facto independent status in most of their affairs), in 1806 it was gifted to Baden by Napoleon.
Between 1192 and 1548 Constance was a hybrid between free city and bishopric, as they payed taxes partly to the emporer and partly to the bishop. Due to their other rights (gifted in 1192 and 1213) like the Münzrecht (Ewiger Pfennig) etc., their jurisdiction and their appearence in external affairs like the Städtebund in 1312 most historians share the opinion, that Constance shuold be categorised as a free city in this time period. After the council this was enhanced, as they gained the right to seal with red wax (technically a royal privilege) and the Blutgerichtsbarkeit (the right for death sentences) in 1417. The red bar in the flag of Constance is a symbol for the Blutgerichtsbarkeit.

If you are interested in the topic, I added a little bit to your thread
Thank you very much for your post and ideas! Very informative and much appreciated! :)
 

Semi-Lobster

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I think the Bishopric of Trent should be prioritised. Austria should get the modern day Südtirol province to hold directly. Having Brixen as well would make that part of the map really complicated. It could potentially work, though, depending on how it's implemented.

Definitely the Prince-Bishopric of Trent should have precedent over Brixen, it goes without saying it was more influential but nobody had mentioned it's smaller Northern neighbour so I thought I would mention it.
 

Ekrexor

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I'm not saying that it would be nice to have better HRE borders so that Ottonian or Hohenstaufen rule conditions could be returned looking more accurate or that the Napoleonic Confed. of the Rhine and French Empire borders and that an early 1871 border for Germany and France should be implemented to look more historical in later ages but it would be quite nice to have all of these things and besides that a more fitting government for the one nation HRE or Germany to make forming them more appealing ...