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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
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Your map seems rather extreme. These map seem more appropriate for the netherlands in EU4's timeframe.

Sure, that map would suit better. The map I posted is meant as an illustration how the province changed in shape, and how the EU4 maps is very good representation of a 20th century Holland, but not the games time period.

I fully understand that they don't show all he lakes and inlets, and much of the water shown in the 1300 map was reclamated in EU4 period, so it's up to the artist whether they show it as water or land. My main point is that showing 20th centuries polders as land, and not simply as an abstraction like a colored in like might be, is a stretch too far.
 
Ehhh, I'm concerned about the addition of any new provinces for places like the Benelux and Germany... Adding more provinces = more AE.
Unless the dev of said provinces was reduced, but if that were to occur, it would be like conquering the steppe hordes instead of large built up cities...

Let's just... I dunno, stop? At this rate, we'll be able to take 2 provinces from the Benelux in a war before half of the HRE says "yano what, Austria? I don't like this Hesse fella so much. How about we make him commit not alive?"
Pity you're downvoted that much. Too many provinces are a problem. May it be with AE, buildings costing the same (with provinces having the same development overal and fewer provinces, you build buildings for less profit), whatever. Too many new provinces without adressing other stuff are a problem.
 
@Pbhuh - Yes, that's the only way to split it, though the northern province would have to be named either Sønderborg, Haderslev or Flensborg and it would have to be larger to the north to allign with the duchy borders. Also at the current rate it splits both Flensborg and Haderslev in half at the northern and southern border. But while I would find the introduction of North Frisia interesting I'm not sure how much sense this change makes overall.

Also if there are any doubts:
Slesvig - both the north and south - was majority danish (making one of the provinces german makes 0 sense in 1444)
North Frisia would probably be majority frisian, though it was also settled by danes and later germans.

So that would support Haderslev, if Sønderborg isn't used. Flensborg perhaps also, given how important it was and how it remained one of the strongest bastions of Danishness until the theft of the land in 1864.

Haderslev became a bishopric in 1922 after the referendum. It was part of Slesvig stift until then. During the recent war (seen from 1444) in the early 15th century over Slesvig there were some ambitions to create an independent bishopric of Haderslev as it was de-facto separated by war from Slesvig during that time.

Also what you write about the strong bastions of Danishness is misleading. The most german parts of Slesvig were always the cities which attracted lots of german merchants (a little bit similar to the baltics but different overall ofc). Modern nationalism really misleads our image of how the area probably was like in the 15th century. There wasn't a real language border and the dialects transitioned into another. You also have to remember that the language germans spoke up there wasn't in fact the german we know today but low german, a separate language from high german much closer to dutch, frisian or danish than high german.
 
During the recent war (seen from 1444) in the early 15th century over Slesvig there were some ambitions to create an independent bishopric of Haderslev as it was de-facto separated by war from Slesvig during that time.
I wonder if that's what I'm thinking about. Anyway, there were two zones of church language, a northern one using Danish and a southern one using German, and that ended up aligning really close to which country the loyalty was towards.

And yeah, there often were Germans in the cities (for the entire Denmark afaik). Though I still was of the impression that Flensborg was quite Danish, though I might be mistaken.


And yeah, I am aware that the Germans spoke Platt.
 
That sounds more like 1864-1920. Slesvig was a danish bishopric.
Nah, it's around 1500, as it was when Latin was replaced as the church language. I'll see if I can refind it.
 
Just curious if the scope of the topic of "Germany" also covers places like Neumark, Sternberg and the other German areas colonized east of the Oder?
I would guess it means the part of the HRE not included in "France" and "Italy", so modern day Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Low Countries, Czechia, Slovenia and the formerly Holy Roman part of Poland.
 
@Pbhuh - Yes, that's the only way to split it, though the northern province would have to be named either Sønderborg, Haderslev or Flensborg and it would have to be larger to the north to allign with the duchy borders. Also at the current rate it splits both Flensborg and Haderslev in half at the northern and southern border. But while I would find the introduction of North Frisia interesting I'm not sure how much sense this change makes overall.

Also if there are any doubts:
Slesvig - both the north and south - was majority danish (making one of the provinces german makes 0 sense in 1444)
North Frisia would probably be majority frisian, though it was also settled by danes and later germans.



Haderslev became a bishopric in 1922 after the referendum. It was part of Slesvig stift until then. During the recent war (seen from 1444) in the early 15th century over Slesvig there were some ambitions to create an independent bishopric of Haderslev as it was de-facto separated by war from Slesvig during that time.

Also what you write about the strong bastions of Danishness is misleading. The most german parts of Slesvig were always the cities which attracted lots of german merchants (a little bit similar to the baltics but different overall ofc). Modern nationalism really misleads our image of how the area probably was like in the 15th century. There wasn't a real language border and the dialects transitioned into another. You also have to remember that the language germans spoke up there wasn't in fact the german we know today but low german, a separate language from high german much closer to dutch, frisian or danish than high german.
I have found conficting sources on the culture of jutland/sleswig/Holstein. For as far as I know calling it either German or Danish is a modern invention and has no basis in history till atleast the end scope of EU4.

It was most likely a dialect continuum with the most appropriate names for a culture in the region probably being Jutlandic and Holsteinish just to simplify the Nordic VS west Germanic split.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutlandic_dialect

Anyway this is way too detailed for Eu4 but a great topic for historians and historynerds.
 
You could split Austria in Austria itself, Styria and Tyrol which were separate duchy. These were ruled by Friedrich III the Duke of Styria as a regency.
 
I have found conficting sources on the culture of jutland/sleswig/Holstein. For as far as I know calling it either German or Danish is a modern invention and has no basis in history till atleast the end scope of EU4.

It was most likely a dialect continuum with the most appropriate names for a culture in the region probably being Jutlandic and Holsteinish just to simplify the Nordic VS west Germanic split.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutlandic_dialect

Anyway this is way too detailed for Eu4 but a great topic for historians and historynerds.
Afaik then this map is pretty correct. Red is Danish, and blueish purple is Saxons. And due to there being a strip of land not too well inhabitable around the border of Slesvig and Holsten there'd have been a gap in the continuum. Which exactly is what most often leads to different languages forming.
And looking at the various place names all over Slesvig then those are clearly of Danish origin, and those names often were coined around 800 AD or there abouts, like the place names in the rest of Denmark too.
And saying that Jutlandic, at least in this era, is separate from Danish is just weird. Especially given how when Denmark got unified (or potentially reunified if the Frankish annals speaking of a strong Denmark in the 700s are correct) it happened centered around Jutland.
Bos%C3%A6tningsomr%C3%A5derSlesvig-HolstenDannevirke.png


I think there should be a releasable Schleswig tag along with the Holstein tag:p
That wouldn't really make sense. It always was a fief under Denmark, albeit at times, before the game start, de facto independent. And without the nobles of Holsten pushing to have Slesvig and Holsten tied together then I really doubt that Slesvig wouldn't have been fully incorporated into the country again once the king started being the duke.
 
As mentioned Tyrol is a little large, province. I mentioned possibly adding Montfort/Voralberg and/or Brixen before but I think maybe a different worthwhile one would be separating Bozen/Bolzano from Tyrol. An important market city between Venice and Austria through the Brenner Pass. The region was lost by the Bishropic of Trent (which as mentioned really should be in the game, even as a OPM) in 1277 and Trent would go on to spent a long time trying to get it back from the Counts of Tyrol. Trent only gave up their rights to the area in 1462 (which by then was now controlled by Austria). The city and its surrounding area would again be detached by Napoleon in 1805 as part of the Kingdom of Italy before being returned to Austria in 1815.

While I doubt all these changes will (or even could) be made, making the Tyrol area 4 or 5 provinces from its current 3 could be worthwhile.
 
As mentioned Tyrol is a little large, province. I mentioned possibly adding Montfort/Voralberg and/or Brixen before but I think maybe a different worthwhile one would be separating Bozen/Bolzano from Tyrol. An important market city between Venice and Austria through the Brenner Pass. The region was lost by the Bishropic of Trent (which as mentioned really should be in the game, even as a OPM) in 1277 and Trent would go on to spent a long time trying to get it back from the Counts of Tyrol. Trent only gave up their rights to the area in 1462 (which by then was now controlled by Austria). The city and its surrounding area would again be detached by Napoleon in 1805 as part of the Kingdom of Italy before being returned to Austria in 1815.

While I doubt all these changes will (or even could) be made, making the Tyrol area 4 or 5 provinces from its current 3 could be worthwhile.
I'd say both Bozen and Vorarlberg would be worth adding, while giving the remainder of the Trent province to a new Trent tag. This would give very clean, vanilla-friendly borders as well as providing a bit more diversity to the region.
 
I have found conficting sources on the culture of jutland/sleswig/Holstein. For as far as I know calling it either German or Danish is a modern invention and has no basis in history till atleast the end scope of EU4.

I think the map @Wagonlitz posted is to be seen as reasonably accurate (if you replace the Slavs) for the timeframe with some sort of cultural split roughly occuring at the Danevirke border (though probably with more german migrants). He is also right with the place names. Slesvig for instance makes no sense in german (Schleswig) as the word "wig" doesn't actually exist (maybe in some primitive low german dialect?), though "vig" in danish does (meaning bay), so it's "bay at the Schlei". Same with the appendix "-by" (meaning settlement or today usually town) which can be found in many small towns in the area. Many of the place names in the area are from year 1000 upwards.

It was most likely a dialect continuum with the most appropriate names for a culture in the region probably being Jutlandic and Holsteinish just to simplify the Nordic VS west Germanic split.

This would mostly refer to tribal societies from when the area was settled but I don't think "Holsteinish" makes sense, never heard that. I'd use Saxon/Angles instead. While this still had cultural relevance in 1444, Denmark was one of the earliest European kingdoms to be unified, so I'd assume there was definitely some understanding of being danish at that time already (the danish kingdom was around 500 years old at that time).

As for the Schleswig tag: Holstein already has the tag "SHL" and is clearly a stand-in for "Schleswig-Holstein". This was effectively how the late Schauenburg dukes stylized themselves too to legitimize their reign. And it was also effectively how the 2 duchies were treated in the 400 years afterwards (at least legally, Schleswig was always seen as a part of Denmark). Below you can see the seal of Adolph VIII (the last Shauenburg duke and the one active at game start), his predecessors effectively had been using the same layout since the late 14th century and duke of Schleswig was their highest title (Holstein-Rendsburg was a county). The seals below says (translated): "Seal • of Adolphus • Duke • of Schleswig • Holstein's • Count". The seal effectively combines the lions of Schleswig with the nettle leaf of Holstein.

Seal_Adolf_VIII._%28Holstein%29_01.jpg

Here is a wiki rendition of the seal:
Adolf_VIII_van_Holstein_wapen.svg

I would change the 1444 start to have Schleswig-Holstein instead of Holstein to better represent the current situation. It's likely to be integrated by Denmark afterwards anyway. Then you could add both Schleswig and Holstein as releasable tags for warring factions in the area to release in a power struggle.
 
As for another topic regarding the HRE: The development is off in some key areas. Here is a table of population approximations for the 10 largest non-italian HRE cities in 1500 and additionally the in game dev and the presumable province type by size:
  1. Prag 70.000 (19 dev province)
  2. Köln 45.000 (15 dev city)
  3. Nürnberg 38.000 (19 dev city)
  4. Augsburg 30.000 (18 dev city)
  5. Danzig 30.000 (16 dev province)
  6. Lübeck 25.000 (17 dev city)
  7. Breslau 25.000 (13 dev province)
  8. Regensburg 22.000 (13 dev city) (a good case to add this as a free city)
  9. Wien 20.000 (21 dev province)
  10. Straßburg (13 dev province) (a good case to add this as a free city)
You can take into account other factors than mere population of course (for Lübeck/Danzig for example) but this should be one of the top considerations. In Game the highest dev non-italian province in the HRE is Vienna (21) which is ridiculous. It should be Praha. In general the development of Austria seems too high. Likewise the development of Hamburg should be lower than Lübeck and Cologne should be higher than both (all 3 are designed as city states). Similarly the game sometimes seems to think cities that weren't a big deal in 1450 were a big deal back then. Both Berlin and Copenhagen at this point had less than 10k inhabitants and Berlin wouldn't really go beyond that until the 17th century. Copenhagen became the capital of Denmark in 1443 (yes, one year before game start) and had at this point less than 5k inhabitants (which was barely larger than other major danish cities like Ribe, Aarhus or Flensborg). I know the 20 dev is for the whole of Sjælland but this really seems like they were anticipating some 17th century numbers. Imo then we need growth, urbanization, migration or centralisation events later (there are already some) but not inflated 1444 starting dev.

In general if we look at population and GDP estimates:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)

I find that there are a couple of clear trends within Europe at least:
-The British Isles are overappreciated.
-The Balkans and Italy are severely underappreciated (this is the worst misrepresentation in Europe)
-Carpathia is underapreciated
-Granada is underappreciated (Granada was possibly the biggest european city in 1450, it got merely 14 dev on a mid-sized province)
-France is probably somewhat underappreciated
-The Nordic countries are likely overappreciated
-Within the germanic culture group the distribution of the dev is sometimes questionable and should allign better with demographic markup but the baseline seems ok (in relation to France or Italy it's too high though)
-The Low countries might be overappreciated though

Outside of Europe I find this becomes harder to apply within the mechanics of this game (especially in China) but ofc the areas outside are underappreciated.
 
Same with the appendix "-by" (meaning settlement or today usually town) which can be found in many small towns in the area.
Names ending in -um are quite Danish too IIRC, though I can't atm remember what the -um suffix means. Names ending in -ing/-ning means "the place where" with the part before the suffix showing what it's about. It still survives in some Danish words like lysning (forest clearing), skræning (slope), etc. Names ending in -rup, -drup, -strup, etc. comes from the world þorp meaning a kind of settlement.
To just name the a few.
 
@Wagonlitz - I think "-um" is common in low german and frisian aswell meaning home. You can find places down in the Ruhr area with that suffix. Same goes for "-rup". "-ing" I believe is extremely widely used in general, in Germany I believe it's actually most used in Bavaria. "-by" is uniquely a giveaway that it was probably danish. "-sund" or "-lund" would be another one.

I've actually done some more research and apparently there is a low german wyk or wiek equivalent to the danish vig. This is where Brunswick comes from for example. The original low german form was probably Brunswiek which is also a lot closer to the english form. Though I think Schleswig ending with g is still a pretty strong giveaway. Anyway what you can see is that the differences were significantly smaller than between high german and danish.
 
@Wagonlitz - I think "-um" is common in low german and frisian aswell meaning home. You can find places down in the Ruhr area with that suffix. Same goes for "-rup". "-ing" I believe is extremely widely used in general, in Germany I believe it's actually most used in Bavaria. "-by" is uniquely a giveaway that it was probably danish. "-sund" or "-lund" would be another one.
Oh. You learn something every day.
And yeah, now you say it then -um does mean home. Or at least that rings a bell.