CK2 Dev Diary #33: Let's Talk About Sects

[Darkrenown]

You guys are the ones who were saying for a long long time that the events weren't actually supernatural. Sure it's before you started posting (perhaps befre you even joined the team?) but still, that was the official line for like 90% of the time that ck2 has been out. Don't start being revisionistic now.

And no but the first one does not contain anything else meaningful either.

Demon child was added in SoA, in 2013 - I challenge you to find any dev saying it's not actually fantasy. I'm not revising anything, you are just wrong and seem to want to gloss over it.

 

[TheDungen]

Demon child was added in SoA, in 2013 - I challenge you to find any dev saying it's not actually fantasy. I'm not revising anything, you are just wrong and seem to want to gloss over it.

I have photographic memory, I am not wrong, but I haven't got the time to dig up a single quote in tens of thousands of pages of text for you. But iff just just use your eyes here on this page you'll see the request to be able to shut the more directly supernatural events of while leaving the ambiguous ones on time and time again, now you can either listen to your customers or not that's up to you.
Also do something about you attitude, you represent a company for crying out loud.

What epilepsy has to do with hearing voices? And what hearing voices has to do with being military genius (being slightly deranged inspirational figure is not the same thing as being military genius even in terms of game mechanic)?

If you can sugarcoat this event as realistic, I'm pretty sure your that power of imagination can work with dark magic in this DLC, as other posters suggested. Just a mumbo-jumbo rituals and a couple of totaly weird coincidences.

Didn't say it did, who says every "possessed" person has the same underlying condition, if one has hallucinations then epilepsy obviously ins't the problem. And the fact that it gives youa hude buff is a obvious jean d'arc reference. Again are you saying that jean d'arc really heard the voice of angels?

I set my game to supernatural off, but somehow still ended up with my ruler becoming a werewolf and killing my advisors. I can understand an event focused on the rumor of werewolves, but something like an unrest hit or a small rebellion or the person getting a werewolf event simply being tagged as a lunatic or possessed seems more than enough. On a related note (not fantasy, but it certainly stretches the bounds of credulity), I have the head of a cadet dynasty turned cannibal who is happily eating his way through his immediate family, yet it has proven impossible to get any support behind a plot to knock him off. I can buy into a cannibal popping up now and then, but surely just about any liege would lock up a vassal who makes a habit of dining on everyone within reach.

I do look forward to monastic orders and other related additions. I hope somehow factions that developed like the split between Guelph and Ghibelline can be integrated as well.

Yeah that's obviously not working as intended. But the thing is that the "supernatural events make up a such a large segment of the games event chains, and the game don't have nearly enough of those as it is, that's mainly why I want to keep them, because the more events there are the less the same ones pop up and break immersion. Events are the main driver of the role playing part of CK2.

Maybe that's what they want us to think...?

Original joke there. Never heard that one before.

 

[imvdm]

I have photographic memory, I am not wrong, but I haven't got the time to dig up a single quote in tens of thousands of pages of text for you. But iff just just use your eyes here on this page you'll see the request to be able to shut the more directly supernatural events of while leaving the ambiguous ones on time and time again, now you can either listen to your customers or not that's up to you.
Also do something about you attitude, you represent a company for crying out loud.



Didn't say it did, who says every "possessed" person has the same underlying condition, if one has hallucinations then epilepsy obviously ins't the problem. And the fact that it gives youa hude buff is a obvious jean d'arc reference. Again are you saying that jean d'arc really heard the voice of angels?


Yeah that's obviously not working as intended. But the thing is that the "supernatural events make up a such a large segment of the games event chains, and the game don't have nearly enough of those as it is, that's mainly why I want to keep them, because the more events there are the less the same ones pop up and break immersion. Events are the main driver of the role playing part of CK2.


Original joke there. Never heard that one before.

Why can't you just accept the answer to all the supernatural events as "aliens"? This is the same timeline and universe with stellaris, after all.

Aside from that, give it a rest, dude. Nearly half of this DD threat is you whining about something that honestly most players don't have a problem with. It's just for good fun and adds to the medieval atmosphere, given the fact back than people would most likely believe in the existence of the supernatural and now we have a reason to interact on these suspicions.

 

[Ratstranger]

Didn't say it did, who says every "possessed" person has the same underlying condition, if one has hallucinations then epilepsy obviously ins't the problem. And the fact that it gives youa hude buff is a obvious jean d'arc reference. Again are you saying that jean d'arc really heard the voice of angels?

Jeanne D'Arc was not a military genius. Like I said before, ability to inspire troops is not the same thing as martial skill in terms of a game mechanic. It's represented through traits rather than skills. Actually, possessed characters have a special combat tactic to represent such ability.

If this buff is a reference, it is not a reference to Jeanne D'Arc as a historical firgure, but to her myth, her legend.

Same way, features from new DLC represent myths and legends about mystics, sorcerers and devil-worshippers, which were a plenty. By your own logic, they totally fit the game's tone.

Just imagine them as pointless rituals and superstitions. There is really no difference between this and believing that random unhinged character can become a military genius.

 

[TheDungen]

Why can't you just accept the answer to all the supernatural events as "aliens"? This is the same timeline and universe with stellaris, after all.

Aside from that, give it a rest, dude. Nearly half of this DD threat is you whining about something that honestly most players don't have a problem with.

Actually I mostly just agree with other people who also have an issue with it. And what did you expect the discussion to be about considering the dev diary? There's barely anything else in it.

Jeanne D'Arc was not a military genius. Like I said before, ability to inspire troops is not the same thing as martial skill in terms of a game mechanic. It's represented through traits rather than skills. Actually, possessed characters have a special combat tactic to represent such ability.

If this buff if a reference, it is not a reference to Jeanne D'Arc as a historical firgure, but to her myth, her legend.

Same way, features from new DLC represent myths and legends about mystics, sorcerers and devil-worshippers, which were a plenty. By your own logic, they totally fit the game's tone.

Just imagine them as pointless rituals and superstitions. There is really no difference between this and believing that random unhinged character can become a military genius.

Except it does not, it represent modern D&D fantasy. Summoning demons was not something people in the middle ages believed in, that's our pop culture myths not theirs.

 

[Ratstranger]

There is nothing about modern DnD fantasy in info about new DLC. If it is your own perception, don't shove it to everyone else forcefully.

Perhaps there were a few real "sorcerers" and devil-worshippers if any. But myths about them were very common in medieval culture. After all, all this accusations of devil-worshop would be pointless, if people were not ready to believe in something like this. It's absolutly same thing as Jeanne D'Arc legend.

Developers are reaching to this tradition of storytelling to make our own stories in the game richer and fuller. CK2 is a game about stories after all.

You don't have to like it, but it's not a cause to act offensive to anyone who does.

 

[Darkrenown]

I have photographic memory, I am not wrong, but I haven't got the time to dig up a single quote in tens of thousands of pages of text for you. But iff just just use your eyes here on this page you'll see the request to be able to shut the more directly supernatural events of while leaving the ambiguous ones on time and time again, now you can either listen to your customers or not that's up to you.
Also do something about you attitude, you represent a company for crying out loud.

I'm sorry that pointing out your are factually incorrect is upsetting you, but part of having adult conversations is being able to accept being wrong gracefully and move on with the conversation.

 

[Kapitalisti]

Also do something about you attitude, you represent a company for crying out loud.

The customer is NOT always right...

 

[TheDungen]

There is nothing about modern DnD fantasy in info about new DLC. If it is your own perception, don't shove it to everyone else forcefully.

Perhaps there were a few real "sorcerers" and devil-worshippers if any. But myths about them were very common in medieval culture. After all, all this accusations of devil-worshop would be pointless, if people were not ready to believe in something like this. It's absolutly same thing as Jeanne D'Arc legend.

Developers are reaching to this tradition of storytelling to make our own stories in the game richer and fuller. CK2 is a game about stories after all.

You don't have to like it, but it's not a cause to act offensive to anyone who does.

Eh no they weren't the idea of demon summonings and bargains with the devil is much more modern. Late renaissance at the earliest.
It's prevalent in stories told about medieval times not in stories told in medieval times. It's one of those wonderful ideas that people have invented to be able to laugh at the stupidity of prior generations.

I'm sorry that pointing out your are factually incorrect is upsetting you, but part of having adult conversations is being able to accept being wrong gracefully and move on with the conversation.

So why don't you? Because like I said eidetic memory I know that I am not wrong.
And you are ignoring the important part, will you make a separate rule for "supernatural" events? I am not the only one who asked for it, that is not up for discussion, that is fact.

The customer is NOT always right...

Never said they were. But a company employee representing his company should always take a customer's concerns seriously.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Never said they were. But a company employee representing his company should always take a customer's concerns seriously.

Take concerns seriously =/= accept a factually wrong statement as right.

 

[th3freakie]

I have photographic memory, I am not wrong, but I haven't got the time to dig up a single quote in tens of thousands of pages of text for you.

This is the motto of the OT forum (ja).

 

[TheDungen]

Take concerns seriously =/= accept a factually wrong statement as right.

Except it's not factually wrong. Nor is whatever paradox has said about these event prior that the relevant part. Whatever the reason many players perceive many of these events as ambiguously supernatural and like those event without wanting this stuff. That is the issue that he got to take seriously, and he's not. Instead he chose to debate. which anyone who has worked two days in customer support is pretty much the worst thing that you can do. Heck he doesn't even debate saying "You're wrong" is not an argument, well not unless you're the US president elect. If he want to show me that I am wrong then I suggest he finds a post from the devs in the SoA dev diaries where the devs admit that it's a supernatural event.

 

[Darkrenown]

So why don't you? Because like I said eidetic memory I know that I am not wrong.

Please stop. Firstly, the fact that the Demon child event is unquestioningly fantasy is surely beyond dispute. Secondly, your conveniently unsourced (although shouldn't you perfectly recall where you read it, making it easy to find?) statement cannot possibly have covered said event because you stated you were not aware of it, so if it had ever been said not to have been fantasy your perfect memory would have been aware of the event .

I had not been answering the rest of your post because I tried to talk to you about where the cutoff for fantasy/questionable fantasy was earlier in the thread and you ignored it to dig in and tell me I was wrong/revisionist at various points, so I didn't see any point in trying again. However, no, we will not make a separate category for "supernatural" events.

 

[TheDungen]

Please stop. Firstly, the fact that the Demon child event is unquestioningly fantasy is surely beyond dispute. Secondly, your conveniently unsourced statement cannot possibly have covered said event because you stated you were not aware of it, so if it had ever been said not to have been fantasy your perfect memory would have been aware of the event.

I had not been answering the rest of your post because I tried to talk to you about where the cutoff for fantasy/questionable fantasy was earlier in the thread and you ignored it to dig in and tell me I was wrong/revisionist at various points, so I didn't see any point in trying again.

Your's is equally unsourced. It's word against word, until you or I supply proof of our point.
No I said I had never seen the regrow limb part of it (and if you had actually bothered to read my post you would have known that), which is hardly surprising considering it requires you to have a demon child which is maimed in the first place. I have seen the demon child event chain event three of four times, but I have never seen anything strictly supernatural about it. The event description for dying from the child is very consistent with descriptions of seizures, the witches can their names aside just be scholars who are drawn to the court of someone interested in their arts. And possessed is a effect of the same genetic disease that killed their siblings. If the person who wrote it wanted it to be obviously supernatural that could have been very easy but instead they went out of their way at all times to write it in such a way that it could be interpreted either way. If there is one event that is the exception (the one where the demon child regrows a lost limb) then supernatural event should block that, not the entire chain.
Look I get that it's not a realistic chain, it's a movie reference, but it's also not impossible to explain away as superstition around certain events which are unlikely rather than impossible.

Your retort earlier was "This is all supernatural, get over it" which I disagree on, it's also not a constructive response, considering the sheer amount of people who have said the same thing. So yeah I snapped the revisionism comment at you, and I am very certain I have seen a dev post a long time ago that they are supernatural explanations for real issues, but that's beside the point. You gave me snarky response so I responded snarkily.

Again I am far from alone not considering them supernatural, these events have obviously been written to be ambiguous as to their exact nature and as such I don't think it's to much to ask for a setting for these events to be kept in the game, especially considering they make up a pretty good chunk of the event chains currently available in the game. What do we have? The demon child, the two byzantine ones, the killing ctulu germanic insanity event, the werewolf event, the hellmouth and the Charlamagne story ones (which last I looked were still broken). Most of these are considered supernatural under the current system. Sure there's the way of life event chains to but those are different considering you play through almost the exact same ones with every character. Now if you add in enough event chains so that there are as many non supernatural event chains as there are supernatural (or "Supernatural") then it would be much less of an issue. But as of now disabling supernatural events disable a huge chunk of events that aren't definitely supernatural, in fact the majority of all available event chains, all of them if you don't consider those that require you to play a specific title or character.

And if we're to be honest these events weren't written with the explicit idea to write supernatural events they are pop culture references, the demon child is the exorcist and the cthulu ones are pretty obvious love craft references.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Your's is equally outsourced. It's word against word, until you or I supply proof of our point.

Nah. You said he did X. He said he did not do X. That means the burden of proof is on your side, because verifying something's non-existence is by all practical means impossible, while the other way around perfectly doable. See Russel's Teapot.

 

[Darkrenown]

Unless you can present a case where limb regrowth has a plausible explanation, I don't see how you can claim it word against word. The limb/maiming/castration recovery events are all in there regardless of if you're aware of them or not and are unquestionably fantasy - that is my proof, not my word. Even if you can somehow rationalize it having a mundane interrogation, we come back to my original point that if you can explain that away then surely you can do the same with "magic".

 

[TheDungen]

Nah. You said he did X. He said he did not do X. That means the burden of proof is on your side, because verifying something's non-existence is by all practical means impossible, while the other way around perfectly doable. See Russel's Teapot.

Actually he started saying they were always supernatural so he's the one who got to prove that. I'm not saying he should find the lack of a comment to support my point but the existence of one supporting his. But again not relevant.

Unless you can present a case where limb regrowth has a plausible explanation, I don't see how you can claim it word against word. The limb/maiming/castration recovery events are all in there regardless of if you're aware of them or not and are unquestionably fantasy - that is my proof, not my word. Even if you can somehow rationalize it having a mundane interrogation, we come back to my original point that if you can explain that away then surely you can do the same with "magic".

I want that specific event blocked by the supernatural rule! I just don't want the entire chain blocked by it.

And look I wouldn't mind that I had to disable the entire thing if there were a few actually plausible event chains in the game but you keep adding pop culture references instead so that's what I have the chose between, no event chains or the pop culture ones and then I'll take the pop culture ones, but if you keep dialing up how ridiculous they are (demon summoning, really? Will there be a blond chick who shows up at your court and chop their heads of too?) I will eventually have to turn them of.

Look at this point I pretty mucn get that you're not goign to do it, but you can't tell us we are wrong to want what we want, you cna say you wonät do it, and tha that's not how you inteded it but in the end want has nothing to do with right and wrong. So if you are going t disregard all the people in this thread who said they'd like a third option when it comes to supernatural content then tell them "We don't care what you want" and be done with it.

 

[sreckom92]

Can you guys please

 

[Hibernian]

Ugh, more magical, unhistorical crap.

 

[TerrorBlades]

All I need is the ability to replace my portrait with a skeleton and I'm proper set!

You could get the mutilated mask from RD? That would be cool.