That's another neat trick to keep in mind, adding a relative cheap last-minute war goal to get extra prestige 
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That's another neat trick to keep in mind, adding a relative cheap last-minute war goal to get extra prestige
Another easy war. Good prestige gain and front screen- nice, even if as an unciv it doesn't matter right now. Remind me Rens, are you using irregulars or infantry?
I'm a political science guy, too. Used to work in politics, and I had the good fortune to be taking a Soviet Politics course during a time (1990) when the prof would put two organization charts on the board, and say, "On the left is how the Soviet government was structured two weeks ago... On the right is how the Soviet government is structured today..."Yes, I read the strategy guide, but I've also read what I've found here on the V2-fori/um about it. Especially this (post #42ff), which is a wonderful example of how "first-past-the-post" (or: "winner-takes-it-all") works
But back to vote-manipulation. In the Hawaii game, I've used an exploit to get "universal" vote and the "Jefferson-method". I learned that when your voters have, say: 5% jingosm before, and you choose "+15% jingoism" (from those "issue-pop-ups" during election), then the result is 5% + 15% = 20%. No other complicated math-formula to use, just add the +Y% from your selection to the starting X% of the voters to get the new value Z%. Hawaii as a "one province-one culture" country was helpful for this littl' (laboratory condition-) experience of mine.
Only one aspect of politics in V2 still is kinda "black box": ideologies.
Yours,
AdL
P.S. This particular feature of V2 interests me, as I once upon a time studied political science.
On the subject of vote manipulation, there's more "exciting stuff" ahead! You'll witness a surge to the left over time, as most people experience, but then when I switched back to a conservative government later, as you'll see, my POPs started voting for more conservative representatives -- an artifact of the government manipulation of votes in action (i.e. a preference in gov'ts with conservative voting policies for the government in being).
I'll have to try to read that Mexico AAR you recommend. I've had so much going on... still catching up! Thanks again, Alan.
I always say, history is stranger than fiction!
Gotcha. You should check it out sometime -- I only started watching it on Netflix a couple months ago, and loved it (not as good as B5, but still very good). Oddly, It wasn't until 2010 that I got to see the show, but back in 2002 I had some awesome geopolitical discussions with Adam Baldwin (Jayne) and other fans on the Firefly fan boards. Not saying what about...No, never even seen the show. Has to do more with my name
Dewirix is correct -- no unciv can be a Great Power or Secondary Power -- they're always ranked below the Civilized countries even if their numbers are higher.
Well, we're about to complete our 2nd Tech of 5 required to become Civilized. The other requirements include a Military score of 50 and a Prestige score of 40. I'm coming right along on the Prestige (one reason why I was scrabbling for as many points out of that war as I could get!). The Military is going to be tough to get, but we're working on it.
At present it's a set -.1 per month. So on average you'll lose 1.2 points per year. Slow. ((sighs))
Good job! I don't have the guts to take on China yet.
As a general practice, I take screenshots for anything important, just in case... This means I already have about 1500 screenshots on my harddrive from this game. Hey, there's a guy I know who needs a spindoctor....
Thanks!
Thank you! Welcome, JosephusDaniels! Your name sounds familiar... Where did you get it? Was he a Confederate figure, or a Postmaster, or something, or am I remembering it from someplace else?
Thanks! I quite enjoy thinking these things up. Much of it is second nature to me. Though, as I'm sure Chief Ragusa would be happy to point out, it's also second nature for me to get sloppy and ignore other strategies I've recommended to other players!That's another neat trick to keep in mind, adding a relative cheap last-minute war goal to get extra prestige
It's supposed to be fun, right? Thanks! Well... The first war was probably 5% or 10% regulars, as opposed to Irregulars. This war was probably more like 50/50. I'm definitely trying to weed out the irregulars -- planned obsolescence, mostly. Twenty years down the road I think I found an Irregular unit still hidden away in a backwater. As I get near my threshold for maximum units I'll disband them and replace them with Regulars, though in the meantime I'm happy to have them in case something happens and I need a little extra muscle.
Thanks again, everybody! I definitely appreciate readership... And I definitely love the comments!
Often comments and feedback make up a good portion of the value of any AAR, I think. I'm seeing a few new AARs where the AuthAARs haven't been doing feedback -- I think everybody really should.Probably another update later this weekend.
Rensslaer
Sure Rensslaer, I'll be happy to point out when you get sloppy and ignore other strategies -if I can spot them. I can do this because it hapens to me, I have chosen the best possible strategy and know exactly what I am doing. Then I take my eyes off what's happening and I'm either losing money hand over fist or an army is in serious danger of being wiped out. Or you forget about attrition at sea and lose an entire fleet. It's all very irritating.
Now, you've inspired someone else to go out and get V2 and start a game as Tibet - I figured as I didn't know what I was doing, I'd choose a country that didn't - Tibet. As usual I ws fairly sloppy- didn't catch a fall to 70 pounds in my treasury and panicked -taxes to 80% and tariffs to 40%. Hecxk it costs 1255 gold to build a unit of regulars. Second mistake to DoW Nepal istead of the panjab, but I figured my 9000 couldn't take out their 15,000 and overrun the country: we're not the Taliban, you see. The war didn't go as expected. I got no CB on Burma for dishonouring. Nepal did not oblige and annex Sikkim. So I got two provinces for 20 infamy and tea. Of course your strategy guides don't tell you how you can get CBs.Even when I had everyone's needs met, I still saw on the province info artisans demoting into farmers and I shudder to think what's going to happen with 88% of their needs not being met. It's a laugh a minute.
Now, you've inspired someone else to go out and get V2 and start a game as Tibet - I figured as I didn't know what I was doing, I'd choose a country that didn't - Tibet. As usual I ws fairly sloppy- didn't catch a fall to 70 pounds in my treasury and panicked -taxes to 80% and tariffs to 40%. Hecxk it costs 1255 gold to build a unit of regulars. Second mistake to DoW Nepal istead of the panjab, but I figured my 9000 couldn't take out their 15,000 and overrun the country: we're not the Taliban, you see. The war didn't go as expected. I got no CB on Burma for dishonouring. Nepal did not oblige and annex Sikkim. So I got two provinces for 20 infamy and tea. Of course your strategy guides don't tell you how you can get CBs.Even when I had everyone's needs met, I still saw on the province info artisans demoting into farmers and I shudder to think what's going to happen with 88% of their needs not being met. It's a laugh a minute.
nice progression
funny to see how grain is a nice production to have , opposed to EU3 where it is pretty worthless
funny to see how grain is a nice production to have , opposed to EU3 where it is pretty worthless
I'm a political science guy, too. Used to work in politics, and I had the good fortune to be taking a Soviet Politics course during a time (1990) when the prof would put two organization charts on the board, and say, "On the left is how the Soviet government was structured two weeks ago... On the right is how the Soviet government is structured today..."
There's a book hanging around in the library at a university near where I live that's one of those 'countries of the world' or whatever with discussion of their governments and economies and all that. Published at the end of 1989 or beginning of '90 and is delightful.
I was just lucky, I guess as China was busy with Russia and their allies so I declared war on them for Yunnan, sending in all my armies. Then UK and Portugal declared on them again. Russia managed to cut China down as a war goal. Once my truce with China is over, I went in again for Guangxi. China as of now is half taken by the rebels, I guess it is the boxers' rebellion.
You're welcome and yes it may well be familiar, Josephus Daniels was US Secretary of the Navy during WWI, his second in charge being one Franklin Roosevelt and he was later Ambassador to Mexico. Hats off to you for mentioning it
Sometime in 1848, I achieved what I think of as my "perfect Budget". These are the settings I would prefer to have, absent any other priorities. This is "cruise" mode for budgeting.
Education and Administration at around 90% (a practical sustainable maximum for a minor), Military Spending at 50%, Taxes at around 55% except for Poor which is higher (remember my explanations of how this isn't keeping them from having luxury goods, etc.). A modest debt to provide extra funds for the government, and a little extra income for your POPs (the ones who've invested in your bank -- make it worth their while!). A sufficient positive incoming balance...
Later, I would face pressure to increase Military to reach the Civilizing threshold, or might get into a war, or have things I needed to build, etc. This was a happy equilibrium, in between the struggle to get on top of everything in the beginning and the later pressures of industrialization. Oh well -- nothing lasts forever.
China got chomped!
Russia took a good chunk out of my most dangerous rival. I consider that a good omen. However, I still fear China. Look at those troop numbers I witnessed while on naval recon! Two stacks of 30,000+ troops, just in one small little corner of China. Wow. Not someone to mess with. Unless you're Russia, I guess.
Now, I think I've mentioned the Research Point Events before (not a real classification, but there are occasional events which provide extra RPs or take them away based on your response to the Event). But it bears repeating again. This event has 34 RPs at stake (68 when you consider you could lose 34 too - a difference of 68). That's not insignificant. You can see the "before and after" indicators showing Post-Napoleonic would be achieved in March, first, then after the extra RPs are applied it's February. Also, remember not so long ago, we expected Post-Napoleonic would be achieved in June! That means our general research capacity is increasing too. You see 1.5 (roughly) points generated by Clergy, but nearly 2 full RPs per day applied, because of the Plurality we're gaining. Part of the Plurality comes from our choosing CON options from events, which raises Consciousness, which thereby also increases Plurality. So even at less than 100% Education Funding, (even at less than 50% in fact) we're seeing our RPs expand gradually.
We finally do achieve Post-Napoleonic Thought in early 1850. This increases our armies' Organization (very good & important, though 5% is small), allows us to dig-in (we couldn't before -- now we dig-in by 1 point) which helps in defensive combat. It also allows us to build Forts, which increases our defensive abilities further. Siam does have to worry about Chinese hordes or British columns coming to get us. This gives us hope that we might be able to hold them off with good frontier Forts and Forts around our internal defense lines.
I am almost certain, now, that I'm protected from attack by the United Kingdom unless I give them a CB through exceeding my Infamy threshold (or if they get a legitimate CB on me by event, I suppose).
This strategy of improving Relations with UK will continue, with the eventual goal (not possible, in the end) of gaining an Alliance with them so they can help protect me against my enemies. This strategy is continued, by extension, in my relations-by-Event with foreign powers. I always choose to gain the Research Point advantages that come with collaborating with European powers, rather than offending them and making our relations worse.
Notice in the first Event (the Westernization Event on the left -- note that this is NOT what causes me to Westernize/Civilize) I chose to collaborate and gain RPs from association with Europe even though it's going to cause Militancy among my population (the other, smaller, events do this too). This is a calculated risk, which turned out to greatly benefit me in the longterm, even though it became the cause of most of my Militancy, and caused me to have to implement Reforms in order to assuage my angry Population. This caused great social tension, and for about the next decade it was something I had to deal with routinely, in one way or another (sometimes I tried to keep my POPs happy by lowering taxes to insanely low levels, etc.). All in all, it was a losing battle without Reform.
In 1854 I achieved the Rights of Man -- another of the stepping stones on the way to Civilization (number 3 out of 5 for me, though I could have chosen a different order for this one). This would increase my National Focus points if I had sufficient population to do so, but alas I did not (which is why I could have gone for another Tech first). I'll get that Focus point later, after more pop growth and expansion.
As it turns out, around this point I find that I'm able to Reform. I've finally reached that nearly 50% Liberal (add in a few conservatives who approve of Reform) level. My government is still solidly Conservative, but I can have a Liberal government while having a Conservative Head of Government. Just the way things are (in Victoria, as well as in many real gov'ts, such as UK).
My options are limited. Will extending the vote help me? That's questionable at this point (later it became clear). I could outlaw slavery, but what would that do for me (remember I'm not role-playing a noble, moral leader)? Most of my POPs (75% or so) are Farmers, and they're all solidly pro-slavery. I'd get some questionable economic benefits in return for angering 75% of my population. Not worth it for me. What else? Nothing else. I choose NOT to Reform until a choice becomes clear, later on.
By 1854, I've completed my first Forts. I'm building first in my Capital (Bangkok), and second on my border with Dai Nam. Not because I'm concerned about the Dainamese, but I'm afraid the Chinese might send an army through there one of these days. I'll eventually try to build another Fort in Vinh, to block off direct sea access to my mainland (sacrificing south Vietnam, basically, but I'm more concerned about threats to my Thai lands), and a ring of Forts around my capital which would allow me to fight a gradual retreat from Fort to Fort (2 defense lines, anyway, and a third along the coast).
Besides more forts, we're also building new army units. And it's always a good idea to be looking for what your next target might be...
Obviously, I've checked out Johore, which is virtually undefended except for Forts (unmanned ones). But I'm also looking at the Dutch East Indies. Remarkably, there seems to be no one around! I'll scout the other islands before making any decisions, of course. But just think -- me against a major secondary power like the Netherlands!
I do look into the possibilities. My Infamy has been reduced to 12 now, and a Declaration of War for Java, say, would involve 9 Infamy -- affordable. But look at all those allies. And Spain is one of them -- near me across the sea to the Philippines. A target, potentially, but also a base from which to mount military resistance. Hmm....
So what do you think? What do you think I decided, and why?
Education and Administration at around 90% (a practical sustainable maximum for a minor), Military Spending at 50%, Taxes at around 55% except for Poor which is higher (remember my explanations of how this isn't keeping them from having luxury goods, etc.). A modest debt to provide extra funds for the government, and a little extra income for your POPs (the ones who've invested in your bank -- make it worth their while!). A sufficient positive incoming balance...
Later, I would face pressure to increase Military to reach the Civilizing threshold, or might get into a war, or have things I needed to build, etc. This was a happy equilibrium, in between the struggle to get on top of everything in the beginning and the later pressures of industrialization. Oh well -- nothing lasts forever.
China got chomped!
Russia took a good chunk out of my most dangerous rival. I consider that a good omen. However, I still fear China. Look at those troop numbers I witnessed while on naval recon! Two stacks of 30,000+ troops, just in one small little corner of China. Wow. Not someone to mess with. Unless you're Russia, I guess.
Now, I think I've mentioned the Research Point Events before (not a real classification, but there are occasional events which provide extra RPs or take them away based on your response to the Event). But it bears repeating again. This event has 34 RPs at stake (68 when you consider you could lose 34 too - a difference of 68). That's not insignificant. You can see the "before and after" indicators showing Post-Napoleonic would be achieved in March, first, then after the extra RPs are applied it's February. Also, remember not so long ago, we expected Post-Napoleonic would be achieved in June! That means our general research capacity is increasing too. You see 1.5 (roughly) points generated by Clergy, but nearly 2 full RPs per day applied, because of the Plurality we're gaining. Part of the Plurality comes from our choosing CON options from events, which raises Consciousness, which thereby also increases Plurality. So even at less than 100% Education Funding, (even at less than 50% in fact) we're seeing our RPs expand gradually.
We finally do achieve Post-Napoleonic Thought in early 1850. This increases our armies' Organization (very good & important, though 5% is small), allows us to dig-in (we couldn't before -- now we dig-in by 1 point) which helps in defensive combat. It also allows us to build Forts, which increases our defensive abilities further. Siam does have to worry about Chinese hordes or British columns coming to get us. This gives us hope that we might be able to hold them off with good frontier Forts and Forts around our internal defense lines.
I am almost certain, now, that I'm protected from attack by the United Kingdom unless I give them a CB through exceeding my Infamy threshold (or if they get a legitimate CB on me by event, I suppose).
This strategy of improving Relations with UK will continue, with the eventual goal (not possible, in the end) of gaining an Alliance with them so they can help protect me against my enemies. This strategy is continued, by extension, in my relations-by-Event with foreign powers. I always choose to gain the Research Point advantages that come with collaborating with European powers, rather than offending them and making our relations worse.
Notice in the first Event (the Westernization Event on the left -- note that this is NOT what causes me to Westernize/Civilize) I chose to collaborate and gain RPs from association with Europe even though it's going to cause Militancy among my population (the other, smaller, events do this too). This is a calculated risk, which turned out to greatly benefit me in the longterm, even though it became the cause of most of my Militancy, and caused me to have to implement Reforms in order to assuage my angry Population. This caused great social tension, and for about the next decade it was something I had to deal with routinely, in one way or another (sometimes I tried to keep my POPs happy by lowering taxes to insanely low levels, etc.). All in all, it was a losing battle without Reform.
In 1854 I achieved the Rights of Man -- another of the stepping stones on the way to Civilization (number 3 out of 5 for me, though I could have chosen a different order for this one). This would increase my National Focus points if I had sufficient population to do so, but alas I did not (which is why I could have gone for another Tech first). I'll get that Focus point later, after more pop growth and expansion.
As it turns out, around this point I find that I'm able to Reform. I've finally reached that nearly 50% Liberal (add in a few conservatives who approve of Reform) level. My government is still solidly Conservative, but I can have a Liberal government while having a Conservative Head of Government. Just the way things are (in Victoria, as well as in many real gov'ts, such as UK).
My options are limited. Will extending the vote help me? That's questionable at this point (later it became clear). I could outlaw slavery, but what would that do for me (remember I'm not role-playing a noble, moral leader)? Most of my POPs (75% or so) are Farmers, and they're all solidly pro-slavery. I'd get some questionable economic benefits in return for angering 75% of my population. Not worth it for me. What else? Nothing else. I choose NOT to Reform until a choice becomes clear, later on.
By 1854, I've completed my first Forts. I'm building first in my Capital (Bangkok), and second on my border with Dai Nam. Not because I'm concerned about the Dainamese, but I'm afraid the Chinese might send an army through there one of these days. I'll eventually try to build another Fort in Vinh, to block off direct sea access to my mainland (sacrificing south Vietnam, basically, but I'm more concerned about threats to my Thai lands), and a ring of Forts around my capital which would allow me to fight a gradual retreat from Fort to Fort (2 defense lines, anyway, and a third along the coast).
Besides more forts, we're also building new army units. And it's always a good idea to be looking for what your next target might be...
Obviously, I've checked out Johore, which is virtually undefended except for Forts (unmanned ones). But I'm also looking at the Dutch East Indies. Remarkably, there seems to be no one around! I'll scout the other islands before making any decisions, of course. But just think -- me against a major secondary power like the Netherlands!
I do look into the possibilities. My Infamy has been reduced to 12 now, and a Declaration of War for Java, say, would involve 9 Infamy -- affordable. But look at all those allies. And Spain is one of them -- near me across the sea to the Philippines. A target, potentially, but also a base from which to mount military resistance. Hmm....
So what do you think? What do you think I decided, and why?
You can be reckless militarily and diplomatically, but I think you chose peace, or perhaps war with Johore, because you aren't completely mad.
Can you avoid the Dutch navy and army?
I say finish all possible neighbours first, Burma-Dai Nam.
Wait until the Dutch are entangled in some other conflict.
I say finish all possible neighbours first, Burma-Dai Nam.
Wait until the Dutch are entangled in some other conflict.
Hopefully not. Your navy is hardly up the job against the Netherlands and your wargoals are across the sea after all. That is if the Ai is actually not very dull (no idea, lacking the game).
But maybe more importantly than the feasibility of the war alone it might involve the Russians, which can in due time be of some help against China should the worst come. Even if not for them you would be angering a bunch of European powers and you never now who might become an ally to whom in the future. If Spain gets mad at you and for some reason becomes very friendly with the UK things have the potential to go downhill very quickly. Makes sense role-playing wise I guess since a successful war of an uncivilized nation against fellow Christians would hardly spark much sympathy in Europe at the time, not even among the Belgians.
I dont understand the comment about the Philippines though. It was my understanding that infamy is linked to the amount of wargoals so you can hardly be plotting to attain Java and the Philippines now, can you?
But maybe more importantly than the feasibility of the war alone it might involve the Russians, which can in due time be of some help against China should the worst come. Even if not for them you would be angering a bunch of European powers and you never now who might become an ally to whom in the future. If Spain gets mad at you and for some reason becomes very friendly with the UK things have the potential to go downhill very quickly. Makes sense role-playing wise I guess since a successful war of an uncivilized nation against fellow Christians would hardly spark much sympathy in Europe at the time, not even among the Belgians.
I dont understand the comment about the Philippines though. It was my understanding that infamy is linked to the amount of wargoals so you can hardly be plotting to attain Java and the Philippines now, can you?
Those allies are fairly off-putting. I would guess no war against the Dutch unless you found it obvious that the allies couldn't get at you easily, or if they are distracted by that war with the UK.
If I were you, I wouldn't dare go for the Dutch just now. They do seem to have lots of powerful friends. Also, the East Indies is a big place, and occupying provinces takes a lot of time (relatively) - just enough for them to haul some stacks o' Doom and eat you raw. Also, the provinces themselves may not count for much warscore. IIRC, uncivilised nations can get annexed in one gulp, so if they chose to add an "establish protectorate" you can make this a very short AAR.
Then again, a veteran player like you probably has some tricks up his sleeve, so I can't say a war is out of the question.
Then again, a veteran player like you probably has some tricks up his sleeve, so I can't say a war is out of the question.
Coming out of the wood works to say I've really enjoyed this AAR and its helped me get a better grasp of the game. Thanks!
I wasn't going to say anything but I saw Rens is a fellow Colorado resident so I just had to say hello. Nice weather today
I wasn't going to say anything but I saw Rens is a fellow Colorado resident so I just had to say hello. Nice weather today
I'd say attack the netherlands only if you want to die. If any of those powers land a decent sized army on your shores I dont know how you could live. It would also take like 5 years before the netherlands would even cede any provinces to you.
I'm with Serek000 on this one. I'd say a France-England war has drawn in just about everyone on this list including the Netherlands and you're in a position to pick off their Indonesian possessions.
They were at war with the UK on page one of this AAR, so I'm guessing they're on the French side and no match for the British navy. You on the other hand can just sail over and take what you want.
I just checked my Dutch game where I conquered Johore, and Java should be a much juicier target; Batavia alone sold over 300£ worth in coffee, whereas Johore's richest province mined 27£ of precious minerals. (these figures are from 1843).
The Dutch presence there is pretty poor, at the start of the game anyway (save for a decent navy, but it looks like you've got a better one already).
Does it get harder to earn warscore when you're against an entire alliance? I haven't been able to find out yet.
The Dutch presence there is pretty poor, at the start of the game anyway (save for a decent navy, but it looks like you've got a better one already).
Does it get harder to earn warscore when you're against an entire alliance? I haven't been able to find out yet.
Surely you'll wait at least until you've civilised before you take on the big boys?