Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 5 - Production Lines

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This is awesome :)

It may be better to show numbers, although one neat feature of the factory rows is you can click to set an exactly number quickly, and you should quickly become used to the 3 rows of 5 format so you can tell how many are assigned at a glance. However, it's not the final UI so we may end up changing things.

The rows look way better IMHO.

As for stockpiling, what about oil/fuel? Surely that can still be stockpiled? You'll want a late war German player to save up fuel in advance of an offensive, right?
 
Why Chromium?
 
Changes to production look fantastic. Game is looking better and better.
 
Looks great

There's no quality level to resources, if you have what you need everything is hunky-dory, if you are short it is assumed the slower production is you scraping up the resources someway-somehow so you still end up with the same final result.

..........

Does this mean there is a form of Ersatz conversion ?.

Assuming I'm using 100 iron in all my lines atm, 50 tanks(1 Iron) + 100 artillery(0.5 iron). The British cut the swedish ore, and I'm down to 80.

Does this lead to
A - the bottom 20 iron units capping production, so I'm only making 60 artillery now.
B - the bottom 20 iron units hampering production by for example 50%, so I make 80 artillery instead, and perhaps have some additional cost due to the Ersatz conversion.

If "B", would this allow for the following IC spamming strategy ?
My IC is 200 (and I only have the iron to feed 200 IC), I go on a huge IC building strategy and increase my IC to 600 (+400)
My original 200 IC produces 1000 uboats, my new 400 IC is starved for iron and builds at 50%, so another 1000 uboats, 2000 in total.
 
Interesting I'll have to call up a family member of mine who works in the steel industry and ask him what this basically is saying about it. Not a expert in the subject. To me though from the jist it seems like it was just rushed production and thats what caused it to have these poor qualities not that they weren't capable of doing so. Example, Panzer IV or anything like that which didn't have these same improper production of steel. I looked into it a bit and it seems a often trend during the later years, many factories were having problems getting proper equipment and self sabotage of military equipment was common. Which to me at least indicates that it was because of circumstance not because of design that the(Its pretty clear the Germans could do quenching correctly, various other tanks prove this from what I've googled around) toughness was inherently there. So in a nutshell what I'm asking is will there be a negative taken into account on the Panther for this. (not clear in your response, is why I'm asking again) I've also read that they were no longer using all the materials needed to produce high quality stuff. It seems like these reports are just faulty because it was circumstantial, not to do with the actual design of the tanks. When you stop using essential resources for the armor and production of your tanks, I feel like the toughness drops as you go for limited resources (literally can't make the tank anymore really, at least to what its suppose to be)and less about making the actual design of the armor. These reports if not with withstanding capitalist freedom bias, aren't accurate to the truth of the tank, is my point, they didn't have the resources or the production capacity to churn out the design of the Panther correctly and had to cut corners because of the bombing raids and loosing of resources needed to produce these things. Also this wasn't true of all Panthers, just a group of them were found to have this problem as I look more into it....which just means its poor manufacturing and limited resources.

Think you’re getting hardness & toughness mixed-up. The two properties are very different.

As an example, glass is hard but brittle = not tough. Chrome steel with such a high Carbon content (0.5% is a LOT of Carbon) can be very brittle indeed. I quickly read those reports but a quick summary would be.

The Jominey quench is all about showing that the hardness varies with depth from the quenched surface. It may be obvious but, the thicker the plate, the more difficult it is to harden it through its entire thickness. Whilst the US analysts seem to dismiss this as poor quality work, the Germans may have been constrained by “operational factors’. For example, cooling steel reduces in volume and a solid piece of steel that’s shrinking and hardening on one side while still hot on the other could break due to the internal stress. Try pouring boiling water in to a cold glass & you’ll see what I mean. Consequently, this limited rate of cooling would result in the heat from the remainder of the plate, especially very thick plate, preventing the quenching effect in some areas altogether.

It’s an interesting problem (to me anyway) which would have been solved if Germany had had access to Molybdenum.

You see, what you’re picking-up on about the quality getting poorer as time goes on is actually clearly stated in one section about the chemical analysis. The % of Molybdenum steadily reduces with time from about 0.5% to almost nothing. Make no mistake, Mo is a critical alloying element in these kinds of steels. Chromium & Carbon can both make steel very hard but together, in large quantities, they’re a recipe for disaster. Too much Carbon and you’ll get Chromium carbides forming. The documents then go on to describe the effects witnessed when welding this material. Cracks :(

Welding a steel that’s been carefully heat treated is probably the worst thing you can do to it. And the only way you can stop it from cracking is…

To heat it up a lot before you start welding.

Obviously, this screws with the properties the heat treatment was intend to give in the first place. The only way I can think of to weld it would be to use a temper bead procedure. This would take a LONG time which would really screw your production rates and promote carbide formation due to prolonged periods at high temperature, further degrading the armour plate.



Why Chromium?

It's another critical component in making really hard steel for armour.
 

Not really :) I proposed a similar system quite a few times, nice to see how it was implemented.

I´d still like if production lines took time and resources to be built, but if that´s too tough to implement I´m satisfied already with the proposed system.

Since it looks like a very quantitative model, I hope to finally see CAGs of different sizes instead of generic 1 CAG for light carriers and 2 CAGs for fleet ones.
 
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Since it looks like a very quantitative model, I hope to finally see CAGs of different sizes instead of generic 1 CAG for light carriers and 2 CAGs for fleet ones.

Oh yes please.

And different compositions.

If my CVEs are posted to support an invasion I only need them to be carrying MRs

My fleet carriers will have Int's, MRs & Nav's

CVEs being unable to operate Int's because they aren't big enough, and fleet carriers being unable to operate Int's of the same tech' year as their hull, for the same reason is, I suppose, too much detail to hope for.
 
On the hardness of armour, thin armour should be harder than thick armour in most causes.
Harder is not necessarily better quality.

Thick armour should deform more, thin armour is more an all or nothing affair which is why is needs to be harder.

Also later in the war AP shells were been replaced with APCBC shells, which reduced the advantage of hardness.
Steel shatters over ~800m/s, AP shells (Armor piercing) have a steel nose/penetrator. Advantage hard armour to increase the chances of shattering.
APC shells have a blunt "cap"/nose that is designed to deform at impact, this reduces the chances of shattering, disadvantage hard armour.
The BC part is a ballistic cap to improve aerodynamics.
 
Production Lines also have an Efficiency value which affects how much value you get out of your IC at a factory. Your efficiency starts out fairly low but increases as items are produced - slowly at first to represent the retooling of the factories, then it begins to increase at a linear rate until tapering off after a certain value (an S curve). You can change what a Production line produces, of course, and this normally means all your Efficiency is lost, however there are some exceptions. If you change to a modified version of the same equipment (for example, the same tank but with a larger gun) you keep most of your Efficiency. If you switch to another variant of the same chassis (e.g. you switch from Pz IIIs to StuG IIIs) you keep half your Efficiency. And if you switch within the same family (e.g. Basic Medium Tank to Improved Medium Tank) you keep a small part of your Efficiency.

So a factory's efficiency when retooling multiple times might look like this?

LHlVUsK.png


As long as efficiency factors effect overall cost, even indirectly, that would be excellent.
 
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This new system seems great to me and is very exciting, I am a little sad to see stock piles be completely not represented. This now really forces you to always be making something or loose the benefit of resources. So if i wanted to wait 6 months to make a better researched design or wanted to wait 3 months to till I get a little more Intel I am punished because I was not making something during that time. It makes me feel like I always have to make some thing even if i don't want to.
Is there a way to adjust this maybe by adding efficiency to Resources.
An example is base efficiency is 50% starting a game (represented with a little bar 50% above the resource) this number means you get to use full use from all recourse you have control over, it does not add to them, using resources makes this number go down say 1 for every 3 days game all the way to 0. You DO NOT get any negative or positive effects from 100 to 0, and when you get to 0 you then you loose production capacity, not using that resource for each day makes you go up 1 per 3 days till 100 (represented with a full bar over resources), this would give you a sliding scale which could be effected by tech or bombing if you wish. This would give you a way to simulate bombing against resources and give a basic 300 day kind of stock pile for resources. I know the goal is simplicity for say but it is such a negative to always feel like i need to be producing or i am loosing out on opportunity.
I also know my explanation as above may make my suggestion sound more complicated then it is in my head but please consider something for this if not my suggestion.
 
I´d still like if production lines took time and resources to be built, but if that´s too tough to implement I´m satisfied already with the proposed system.

They do. But it's abstracted as lower efficiency instead (tooling and so on) so you don't have to worry about it separately.

Since it looks like a very quantitative model, I hope to finally see CAGs of different sizes instead of generic 1 CAG for light carriers and 2 CAGs for fleet ones.

How would that work with Carriers? What happens if you try to put a 39 aircraft CAG on a Carrier with only room for 38 more? If would be very fiddly and inflexible imo to go into individual units.

The logical way to do it IMHO would be a standardized 30 planes each for CAGs. That allows modelling both 1CAG CVEs (Jeep Carriers), 2CAG CVs (Light/Armored Fleet carriers) and 3 CAG (Large Pacific Fleet Carriers). It also allows some historical variations since many carriers with around 60 aircraft used two different models and many with 90 used three (fighter, dive and torpedo bomber).
 
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Interesting DD.
It might be noteworthy that the biggest gain in more output was not "knowing how to use the screws/bolts", but about making the design easier to produce.
So it is not only tied to the production but to a large amount the "drawing board/design"(research) too.
I see that we could assume that the current design could hav ethat included in a very abstracted way. But I would much like to see a possibility tied to research too.
Like a new button next to a modell wich needs research and then will make the unit easier to produce but after a slight retooling time(adoption).



Interesting I'll have to call up a family member of mine who works in the steel industry and ask him what this basically is saying about it. Not a expert in the subject. To me though from the jist it seems like it was just rushed production and thats what caused it to have these poor qualities not that they weren't capable of doing so. Example, Panzer IV or anything like that which didn't have these same improper production of steel. I looked into it a bit and it seems a often trend during the later years, many factories were having problems getting proper equipment and self sabotage of military equipment was common. Which to me at least indicates that it was because of circumstance not because of design that the(Its pretty clear the Germans could do quenching correctly, various other tanks prove this from what I've googled around) toughness was inherently there. So in a nutshell what I'm asking is will there be a negative taken into account on the Panther for this. (not clear in your response, is why I'm asking again) I've also read that they were no longer using all the materials needed to produce high quality stuff. It seems like these reports are just faulty because it was circumstantial, not to do with the actual design of the tanks. When you stop using essential resources for the armor and production of your tanks, I feel like the toughness drops as you go for limited resources (literally can't make the tank anymore really, at least to what its suppose to be)and less about making the actual design of the armor. These reports if not with withstanding capitalist freedom bias, aren't accurate to the truth of the tank, is my point, they didn't have the resources or the production capacity to churn out the design of the Panther correctly and had to cut corners because of the bombing raids and loosing of resources needed to produce these things. Also this wasn't true of all Panthers, just a group of them were found to have this problem as I look more into it....which just means its poor manufacturing and limited resources.
I also don't think that these reports aren't that usefull without taking the circumstances of production into account. Overall if german tanks would have had all(even only the Panthers) that quality of armour, I doubt allied HQ would have asked for better upgunned and armored tanks in '43. :D

But it would be a good idea to have taking such circumstances into account, maybe via events. Maybe even triggered with covered missions or similar.
So say infiltrate and show how to sabotage production would lead in an even that gives the country a bad modifier of some sort for their units.
As another historical information; Ger overall production was later on highly dependent on prisoners of war and other imprisioned people. That among these many were sabotaging the war effort with the risk of their lifes is often forgotten. Also GER qualified workers where often drafted then send back to work only to be drafted again.. GER was far away from being very straightforward with all these little "GröfaZe" making different motivated decisions. Even after Speer took over production efforts it was often a fight about ressources within that struggling country.
So it is maybe a good idea to have in mind for workers if the game will have a more detailed simulation of population. So you can have trained workers and untrained wich(staring form a certain percentage) adding a bonus or malus to your units. Easily changeable via modifiers through events/techs. Note that this is no ask for simulation of PoW etc.(the above info was just given for history reasons), but and only for the countries very own workforce!
Same to soldiers training. Not all would fit to be Rangers or "Screaming Eagles". So these units would not suck up more manpower as before, but would need superior lvl of manpower.
That way the countries MP could be splt up similar like the current HoI3 IC maybe. To have base, possible "Elite Soldiers" and "usual soldiers". You still nedd to train and replacemenst would affect the same way as equipment is planned to do. So if you run out of "Elite" your Eagles will be only Falcons after a while maybe..