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can something be done

Hi,

you say hardcoded, does this mean that nothing can be done?
At the end of the day it's not that important if Afghanistan or Bolivia go with Axis. It's more the historical aspects that annoy me. If things like that happen every so often it's normal because that's a game but every time is bad.

Bye. Speed.
 
Re: can something be done

Originally posted by speed
Hi,

you say hardcoded, does this mean that nothing can be done?
At the end of the day it's not that important if Afghanistan or Bolivia go with Axis. It's more the historical aspects that annoy me. If things like that happen every so often it's normal because that's a game but every time is bad.

Bye. Speed.

well, there are things that can be done, but the costs and effects must be examined. As the game stands, there isn't anything we can do about the ease in which nations have in terms of influencing other nations in their political bloc. It's a non-moddable part of the game.

what we can do is change the alignment of the HoS/HoG to something else (liek LC for example). This makes it harder for certain nations to influence them, but easier for others. It won't be much of a change to have Afghanistan, for example, no longer joining the Axis regularly only to have them join the Allies just as frequently. Events are also a possibility, but the diplomatic engine will still occassionally have its way prior to an event firing.
 
Re: Re: Pre-war Palestine

Originally posted by JRaup
(...)4. Creation of Hagganah, ehich is around 1943 IIRC.
This could be linked to the "Polish Army in the Middle East" event as historically a huge part of the future Haganah were jewish-descent deserteurs from the Polish Army. As a sidenote, gen. Anders decided not to pursue them although he could and had a right to do so.
Cheers
 
Possible Palestine Events

Possible Palestine Events:

April, 1936: Background - Balfour Declaration, Jewish Emigration, Ethnic tension, Arab High Commission, start of general strike, IC -1.

10/12/1936: End general strike in Palestine. Peel Commission formed to explore how to resolve issues. Arabs boycott Peel evidence gathering hearings. IC +1, Influence -1.

6/29/1937: UK authorities execute Salomon Ben Yosef, a Jewish terrorist, for murder.

7/8/1937: Peel Commission delivers its report calling for the tripartite division of Palestine. The Jews would acquire a narrow strip from Jaffa to Lebanon along the coast. Britain would hold Jerusalem and a transport corridor to sea at Jaffa from the League, the remainder of Palestine (Gaza, Judea, Samaria, and the Negev) would be united with Transjordan and given independence with Transjordan. Zionist communities agree. Arabs reject the settlement. Influence -1, Dissent +0.1.

8/1937: A series of interethnic terrorist attacks in Palestine. British General Orde Wingate implicated in supplying and training some of the bands. Supplies -10, Dissent +0.3

9/8/1937: Pan Arab Congress rejects the Peel Partition Plan. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi, Egypt -1 supplies to fund Arab Revolt.

9/26/1937: Yelland Andrews, British District Commissioner for Galilee is assassinated by Arab rebels. Widespread revolt. British crack down. Supplies - 10. IC-1

10/1/1937, Arab High Commission arrested for fomenting rebellion in Palestine. Commissioners are exiled to Seychelles. Supplies - 5, Dissent +0.10

10/16/1937: Haj Amin el Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jersualem escapes to Syria, rebellion is radicalized. Syrian dissent +1 Possibly have a "capture Grand Mufti" leg with weakens the subsequent rebellion.

11/24/1937: Pitched battles in Jerusalem between ethnic factions. British set up military tribunals to try rebels found with banned arms or ammunition. British are making progress. Supplies -5 IC+1

3/31/1938: British may chose to A) Crack down in Palestine by appoint Sir Harold MacMichael as governor or B) keep current course with Sir Arthur Wauchope in charge.
A) Supplies -20 (Historical)
B) Supplies - 10, Dissent +0.2

6/1938: Canaris Mission: Admiral Canaris secretly visits the Grand Mufti in Beirut. German aid will be given to the Palestinians to continue to stir up Palestine. German Event. Supplies -10.

8/1938: British Intelligence (20% possibility): British intelligence agencies discover German backing of the Arab Revolt. Whitehall is outraged. Warentry = +5, Dissent = -1. (Ahistorical but possible)

10/18/1938 (historical): In October, the Arab rebellion escalated sharply. There were massacres. Arab forces seized several towns including Tiberias, Bethlehem, and the old quarter of Jerusalem. British forces take each area back from rebels. Dissent = +0.2, supplies -20, IC-1

10/18/1938 (soft line (Wauchope still in charge)): The Arab rebellion seizes many towns in Palestines with great loss of life in due to ethnic fighting. The government determines that massive force will be deployed to crush the rebellion. A British company is ambushed and suffers very heavy casualities, embarassing the crown. Dissent = +0.6, supplies -50, manpower -5 IC-1

11/1/1938 (contingent on Wauchope leg): Egypt, Syria, and Saudi Arabia protest the new crackdown. Dissent +1 in each country, supplies -5 (aid to rebellion), Alignment +5 fascist in each case.

11/9/1938 Historical Woodhead commission concludes that the Peel Commissions plan for a partition is not practical and convenes an Arab/Jewish Peace Conference. Influence -1.

11/20/1938: British forces in Palestine restor order int he cities and towns. IC +1.

???/1939: Woodhead Commission: Player choice:
A) Repudiate Balfour Declaration and conclude that a unitary Palestine should be given independence within 10 years. Jewish immigration will be capped so they do not comprise more than 30% of the population. Regulate land transfers between Arab and Jew to slow down acquisition of property by Zionist immigrants. Effectively ends the Arab Revolt in a tactical victory for Arab radicals. Diplo influence -3.

B) Replace the Peel Report with a more generous partition in favor of the Jews. Explicitly reaffirm Balfour Declaration. Given policies on the continent, extend an open door to Jewish emigration, commit two divisions of the army to peace-keeping. Guarantees continuation of the Arab Revolt indefinately. Supplies -500, diplo influence +3, manpower -20,
dissent +1, Egypt, Saudi, Syria, Iraq, all get dissent +1, give 5 supplies to Palestinians, +10 fascist alignment. Palestine IC -1.

* I need to verify the date on the Woodhead Commission report. I recall it was 1939, but I don't have the exact date handy.

Upon Declaration of War:
If Woodhouse B is chosen, add two militia divisions in Palestine. The Palmach is organized under British auspices as a pro-British constabulary to keep order in Palestine (much like the Black & Tans in Eire before the partition). If Palestine fell to Axis troops, one could expect a horrible revenge on the Zionist settlers by the native Arabs, but that is going into the Forbidden Zone and needn't be explicit.

This event chain doesn't stray too far from history. Essentially, the British have a couple of opportunities to take hard or soft lines versus the revolt. The only way to damp the revolt is to concede, though if you catch a break and get the Mufti, the revolt won't be as severe. Once war breaks out, then martial law puts paid the revolt, although one might add a pro-German Palestinian revolt event as a possibility if the British take Woodhead B.

After the war, the revolt would presumably resume, similar to the historical results, but I'll stop at this point for now.

Chaim Herzog noted that in the war for independence, about 30,000 of the Jewish fighters had prior military experience in one branch or another of the British armed forces. (See The Arab-Israeli Wars). Certainly there additional veterans from other militaries, as well.
 
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I really like these Palestine events, only thing I'd add is put Iraq and Lebanon in the countries affected. Iraq especially would see a radicalization of nationalist sentiment as a result of the Arab Revolt in Palestine, and the Mufti of Jerusalem would eventually flee to Baghdad once the British cracked down on the Arab Revolt, becoming a senior minister in the al-Kailani government in Iraq that provoked the British intervention there in '41.
 
Palestine Event Chain Scope

Thanks, OHGamer. Good points on Lebanon and Iraq. My mental map of the middle east just holds a unitary French Syria for the interwar period, but I will double check Lebanese independence.

Does the Mufti actually appear in a minister file anywhere? If the Brits would capture him, I ought to put in a "sleepminister".

I'm wrapping up a bunch of US event scripting right now and will put this into the queue next.
 
Re: Palestine Event Chain Scope

Originally posted by Engineer
Thanks, OHGamer. Good points on Lebanon and Iraq. My mental map of the middle east just holds a unitary French Syria for the interwar period, but I will double check Lebanese independence.

Does the Mufti actually appear in a minister file anywhere? If the Brits would capture him, I ought to put in a "sleepminister".

I'm wrapping up a bunch of US event scripting right now and will put this into the queue next.

Lebanon is an independent playable nation in CORE.
 
idea

in about 1944 i guess the Turkish ambassador of the Rhodos had saved some (i guess 14 some) jews from Germany.And then Hitler decided to bomb rhodos embassy building and at that action the ambassador's wife had died.I.M.O. This can be a good matarial for the game .
 
The Forbidden Zone

By convention, anything that has to do with the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc. is off-limits in HOI-land. I'm going to need to tread carefully in scripting the Palestine events to stay "in-bounds" and plan to emphasize it in a colonial/nationalist context.
 
Re: The Forbidden Zone

Originally posted by Engineer
By convention, anything that has to do with the Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc. is off-limits in HOI-land. I'm going to need to tread carefully in scripting the Palestine events to stay "in-bounds" and plan to emphasize it in a colonial/nationalist context.
Nyah, the Paradox policies are not that strictly obeyed. From my experience, you only have to give a good explanation as to why do you mention the Holocaust.
Cheers
 
It still wouldn't be a bad idea to stay on the side of caution with these events. I like the idea of keeping these more as colonial/nationalist set of events and not even tempt people to abuse the leeway that we get. MDow
 
Originally posted by MateDow
It still wouldn't be a bad idea to stay on the side of caution with these events. I like the idea of keeping these more as colonial/nationalist set of events and not even tempt people to abuse the leeway that we get. MDow

Yes i second that. We should persue to stay within the boundries set up by paradox and ask if were in doubt. like with the us event and japanese citizens mentioned in the wiki.

Ghost_dk
 
weak leaders

Hi,

I think that the main problem encountered with the countries in the middle east in HoI is that they are treated like any other strong country. Usually when you fight a country you fight its army but also its social organisation, the national spirit...
Finland won battles against Soviets not only because of the forests or special tactics but also because all the Finns were together fighting for the same objective : their freedom.

The countries encountered in the Middle East in the 40's are weak because you don't fight the people but only a few leaders and a few regiments.
What I mean is that the troops sent by UK and SU against Persia wouldn't have a chance if the people would have fought like in Finland. Same for UK in Iraq. A medium pressure was enough to make the leaders flee in Persia because they were not supported by the country.

That's why I think that Egypt, Iraq, Persia and Afghanistan should be treated differently. To be honest I don't know how exaclty, may be through events or by reducing the manpower. Events could check the military situation once at war to see if the country surrenders, manpower could be lowered dramatically to simulate the fact that the troops melt quickly because they are not ready to die for the dictator in power, him or another one what does it change for them?

The fact that it's very difficult to avoid Afghanistan and Persia to with the Axis should be balanced with some things that help the Allies.

Bye. Speed.
 
Speed, that's some very valid points but will need to be balanced against human player exploits (ie attacking weak countries in 1936 to get resources and overseas bases). Perhaps we can look at some org penalties for certain countries.
 
mid east

Hi,

I think that all decisions need to be balanced. But as I see it so far, the fact that these countries go with the Axis very often is alredy a disadvantage for allies, especially for SU and UK which are obliged to keep troops there that could be usefull elsewhere.

On the other hand big penalties should be given to players that deliberatly attack them knowing that they are considered as "weak".
I forgot to speak about Saudi Arabia, I'm not sure but I think that USA signed some kind of agreement to protect the Saoudian Dynasty in exchange of a cheap petrol in the 30's. I've heard of some people attacking this country to have some oil (italian players usually). Is something implemented about this? Like a big WE increase or even USA go to war to help Saudi Arabia.

Bye. Speed.
 
Re: mid east

Originally posted by speed

I forgot to speak about Saudi Arabia, I'm not sure but I think that USA signed some kind of agreement to protect the Saoudian Dynasty in exchange of a cheap petrol in the 30's. I've heard of some people attacking this country to have some oil (italian players usually). Is something implemented about this? Like a big WE increase or even USA go to war to help Saudi Arabia.

Bye. Speed.

Sounds interesting. I don't know how you would implement it though. Is there any documentation available on this? You sure that was the 30s and not the 90s? It is sometimes amazing how history repeats itself :D. MDow
 
weak leaders

I'll try to find some more information about Saudi Arabia tonight and send a post. I've seen this stuff on French TV a few weeks ago and I'm pretty sure that USA guaranteed the saoudian royal family security in the 30's. US Oil companies could then look for petrol in the country and buy it for very cheap.

For the other countries : Afghanistan, Persia, Egypt and Iraq these countries should be considered as "weak dictatorship" (I don't know if this means something in english) :
Basically this applies to a country that has :
a weak social cohesion
a government that has no real link with the people
a weak army with no real will or preparation for a war with a major country

The easiest way would be to reduce the MP of these countries and to create a simple tech that reduces the org of these armies. If I'm right JRaup has done some stuff like that with NatChi and it works pretty well. By doing both we have armies that collapse after some fighting.

More complicated ways are to check how many territories are conquered to see if the country surrenders.

In any case historical and ahistorical partitions of the country should be proposed to the AI and player.

Bye. Speed.
 
Re: weak leaders

Originally posted by speed
I'll try to find some more information about Saudi Arabia tonight and send a post. I've seen this stuff on French TV a few weeks ago and I'm pretty sure that USA guaranteed the saoudian royal family security in the 30's. US Oil companies could then look for petrol in the country and buy it for very cheap.

For the other countries : Afghanistan, Persia, Egypt and Iraq these countries should be considered as "weak dictatorship" (I don't know if this means something in english) :
Basically this applies to a country that has :
a weak social cohesion
a government that has no real link with the people
a weak army with no real will or preparation for a war with a major country

The easiest way would be to reduce the MP of these countries and to create a simple tech that reduces the org of these armies. If I'm right JRaup has done some stuff like that with NatChi and it works pretty well. By doing both we have armies that collapse after some fighting.

More complicated ways are to check how many territories are conquered to see if the country surrenders.

In any case historical and ahistorical partitions of the country should be proposed to the AI and player.

Bye. Speed.
yes, but that will make them easier to annex... i could send 2 divisions and because of this, they will annex the entire Persia...
Remember that the player can do anything, so we must deal with that... Italy or Turkey could invade any of these countries to get more resources and with this proposition, it will be a "walk in the park"... :(
 
mid east

Ok, I agree that they would be easier to invade. And that's exactly the point. How many troops is actually needed to invade Persia, lots of them. What happened in reality? UK and SU did not send 15-20 divisions but really less. Of course a country like Turkey could invade Persia. But Turkey doesn't have any claims on Persia, and I've never seen it declaring war to Persia. On the other side a player can do everything.
Let's be honest, who plays Turkey? Just a few people. And if these people like playing ahistorical games we can't do anything about it.

UK and SU almost didn't fight in Persia and Iraqi leaders escaped quickly in Teheran worrying about their own lives. Uk troops were less than one division in Iraq and won. Not even a brigade near Bagdad and just above two indian brigades in Bassorah.

Bye. Speed.