AGCEEP Russia

[Pied-Noir]

I'm not sure Bonaparte would have been that interested in proclaiming himself the saviour of Orthodoxy. :laugh:

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
I see an issue in the trigger:...

You´re right. I simply replaced the deleted not exist = BYZ with the replacement and that would mean I would check NOT that it NOT exist and so the exact opposite of what I wanted to check. That must be my punishment for me mocking Toio about his NOT = { atwar = yes } condition in the other thread ;-)

...
or simply:

		NOT = { exists = RUS [color=yellow]}[/color] 
		        [color=red]exists = BYZ[/color]
                [color=yellow]OR = {
                        NOT = { exists = BYZ } #historical situation
			AND = {  
				BYZ = { flag = [Fantasy_BYZ] }
                                dynastic = { country = MOS country = BYZ } 
				countrysize = 20
		        }      
                }[/color]

where the command for countrysize means that RUS needs to have at least 20 provinces AND dynastic with a fantasy BYZ.

That is what I meant and scripted wrong.

My suggestion:
According to the linked threads, what about this instead?

		NOT = { exists = RUS }
                OR = { 
			NOT = { exists = BYZ }
                       [color=red] OR = { [/color]
				dynastic = { country = MOS country = BYZ }
                            	vassal = { country = MOS country = BYZ }
				AND = {
					countrysize = 20 #even less...
					relation = { country = BYZ data = 190 }
					BYZ = { 
						OR = {
							flag = [Fantasy_BYZ] 
							NOT = { countrysize = 2 } 
						}
					} 
				}
			}
		}

The second suggested trigger is still WIP.

Looks nice and I would agree with that. Isn´t the OR within the OR superfluous (I marked it red)?

Edit: Could someone check if imbedding the picture works on other screen resolutions too as I tried in post 90?

 

[Bordic]

Looks nice and I would agree with that. Isn´t the OR within the OR superfluous (I marked it red)?

It isn't superfluous. It is just incomplete. As you see I have posted the trigger is still WIP as I need to remember the way I used to make my old triggers in eu2.

Actually I wanted these conditions:

- either BYZ doesn't exist

- or BYZ exists, it is either fantasy BYZ or one province (so only the city of Constantinople)
AND it has a very good relation with MOS (probably in the trigger they should be both orthodox but I think they'll be in tha game, hopely)
AND MOS is bigger than 20 provinces (maybe they are too much, woouldn't 12 to 18 be better?)

however if BYZ exists and these conditions are fulfilled, BYZ and MUS should also have a dynastical relation or MOS as a liege of BYZ.

That is the OR isn't superfluous but there should be an AND before it.

In terms of coding, the trigger in event MOS_40010 should have following modification:

#(1480-1820) The Empire of Russia
event = {
	id = 40010
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 279 data = -1 } #Moscow/Tula
		control = { province = 279 data = -1 } #Moscow/Tula
		OR = {
			AND = {
				owned = { province = 271 data = -1 } #Vladimir
				owned = { province = 268 data = -1 } #Vologda
			}
			countrysize = 10
		}
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 274 data = -1 } #Novgorod
			owned = { province = 278 data = -1 } #Tver
			owned = { province = 448 data = -1 } #Ryazan
		}

		NOT = { 
			exists = RUS 
			[color=red]exists = BYZ[/color] 
		}
                [color=yellow]OR = { 
			NOT = { exists = BYZ }
			AND = {
				OR = { 
					dynastic = { country = MOS country = BYZ }
                            		vassal = { country = MOS country = BYZ }
				}
				AND = {
					countrysize = 20 #even less...
					relation = { country = BYZ data = 190 }
					BYZ = { 
						OR = {
							flag = [Fantasy_BYZ] 
							NOT = { countrysize = 2 } 
						}
					} 
				}
			}
		}[/color]
		atwar = no
		isvassal = no
	}

I am not sure if we need that atwar = no or just not war with BYZ.

and countrysize = 20 should be probably reduced.

What about the other Russian Minors?

NVG_3582
PSK_3584
TVE_3586


IMO, in the triggers of these events, the line:

		NOT = { exists = RUS }

should be then this:

		NOT = { 
			exists = RUS 
			[color=yellow]exists = BYZ[/color] 
		}

according to the provided event description talking about the fall of Constantinople.

Actually Zoe married Ivan... ;-)

EDIT: Or we could change the description and use current MOS_4010 for these events too and use the same second part of the trigger from NOT exists RUS down below.

 

[Bordic]

Edit: Could someone check if imbedding the picture works on other screen resolutions too as I tried in post 90?

I can't test it now, but ftg uses max resolution 250x200 pixel for event RUS_1507 about St. Basil's Cathedral.

In Plvs Vltra I try to suggest pictures around this resolution or lesser.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
Actually I wanted these conditions:
- either BYZ doesn't exist

The historical situation and the way that the conditions should usually trigger in most games.

- or BYZ exists, it is either fantasy BYZ or one province (so only the city of Constantinople)
AND it has a very good relation with MOS (probably in the trigger they should be both orthodox but I think they'll be in tha game, hopely)
AND MOS is bigger than 20 provinces (maybe they are too much, woouldn't 12 to 18 be better?)

I used your remark about MOS should not be stopped becoming Russia and colonizing Siberia if they have 20 - 30 provinces.
Let´s see: MOS starts the game with 16 cores and with the other russian provinces there are 21 provinces that it could unite.
The 20+ provinces condition should not be easy. It´s only a way to continue in the ahistorical case that BYZ is not gone.

In terms of coding, the trigger in event MOS_40010 should have following modification:

I´ll update post 90 to sum it up.

I am not sure if we need that atwar = no or just not war with BYZ.

I´m for atwar = no so that MOS is at peace, has consolidated it´s gains and then becomes Russia.

What about the other Russian Minors?

NVG_3582
PSK_3584
TVE_3586

And RYA (Ryazan) 3585.

IMO, in the triggers of these events, the line:

		NOT = { exists = RUS }

should be then this:

		NOT = { 
			exists = RUS 
			[color=yellow]exists = BYZ[/color] 
		}

according to the provided event description talking about the fall of Constantinople.

Several options:
1) leave them as is. The russian minors already have the more difficult task of first defeating and annexing Muscovy making it much harder for them to have the chance to become Russia.
2) Equalize the events trigger so that all of them have the same conditions as MOS.
3) Delete them all and have 1 provincespecific event for the province of Tula so that we have only 1 event for all of the russian principalities? However then we should perhaps remove the move of the capital to Tula as Tver or Novgorod probably would not have moved the capital to Moscow if they had won but only later with the move to St. Petersburg go historical again?

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I can't test it now, but ftg uses max resolution 250x200 pixel for event RUS_1507 about St. Basil's Cathedral.

In Plvs Vltra I try to suggest pictures around this resolution or lesser.

The problem is that the Ugra picture is higher than wide and if it is reduced to a width of 200 using the same hight/width ratio then it would be only 127X200.
Wouldn´t that be too tiny to recognize anything on the picture?
Or should we better use the picture of Ivan and the Khans messenger that get´s no tribute as it is wider than high?

 

[Bordic]

The historical situation and the way that the conditions should usually trigger in most games.

Yes.

I used your remark about MOS should not be stopped becoming Russia and colonizing Siberia if they have 20 - 30 provinces.
Let´s see: MOS starts the game with 16 cores and with the other russian provinces there are 21 provinces that it could unite.
The 20+ provinces condition should not be easy. It´s only a way to continue in the ahistorical case that BYZ is not gone.

Ok, then for cs >20.

I´m for atwar = no so that MOS is at peace, has consolidated it´s gains and then becomes Russia.

Ok.

And RYA (Ryazan) 3585.

Yes, I missed it.

Several options:
1) leave them as is. The russian minors already have the more difficult task of first defeating and annexing Muscovy making it much harder for them to have the chance to become Russia.
2) Equalize the events trigger so that all of them have the same conditions as MOS.
3) Delete them all and have 1 provincespecific event for the province of Tula so that we have only 1 event for all of the russian principalities? However then we should perhaps remove the move of the capital to Tula as Tver or Novgorod probably would not have moved the capital to Moscow if they had won but only later with the move to St. Petersburg go historical again?

1) event description of these events is the vanilla one dealing with a fallen BYZ. That's why I suggested to use your previous suggestion at page 3 (?).
2) As you see I have added a check on relations between BYZ and MOS according to the marriage of Zoe and Ivan III. We could maybe remove the dynastic and leave the vassal status of an ahistorical BYZ, being fantasy or not.
3) I prefer to see events in each Russian minor, expecially when I am going to read through them.

The problem is that the Ugra picture is higher than wide and if it is reduced to a width of 200 using the same hight/width ratio then it would be only 127X200.
Wouldn´t that be too tiny to recognize anything on the picture?
Or should we better use the picture of Ivan and the Khans messenger that get´s no tribute as it is wider than high?

I can't tell you about the better ratio to be adopted, but I believe that a pic wider than high is better when you consider that the title of the event, the description and the actions with available commands are to be displayed below it.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

......
2) As you see I have added a check on relations between BYZ and MOS according to the marriage of Zoe and Ivan III. We could maybe remove the dynastic and leave the vassal status of an ahistorical BYZ, being fantasy or not.

Does the -1 work in the check of a royal marriage so that it would not need to specify MOS but could be -1 and fitting for any russian minor?

3) I prefer to see events in each Russian minor, expecially when I am going to read through them.

o.k. then we should leave 1 event for each of the russian minors as it is so that the events text can be varied

I can't tell you about the better ratio to be adopted, but I believe that a pic wider than high is better when you consider that the title of the event, the description and the actions with available commands are to be displayed below it.

Just take a look how the event looks with the picture imbedded in the format I currently uploaded in my post 90.
If you say it´s o.k. then I´ll submit it as is,
if it´s too large - but would not be recognizable if further reduced in size perhaps rather use the Ivan+Khans messenger picture.

 

[Bordic]

I´ll update post 90 to sum it up.

Please, check the parentheses. I suggest to try to add the closing parenthesis directly on the same vertical axis of the beginning of the word for the operator, being it OR, AND or NOT. IMO it is easier to understand the trigger.

 

[Bordic]

Does the -1 work in the check of a royal marriage so that it would not need to specify MOS but could be -1 and fitting for any russian minor?

I can' say. Never used. But is we use an event for each country, we wouldn't need it.

Just take a look how the event looks with the picture imbedded in the format I currently uploaded in my post 90.
If you say it´s o.k. then I´ll submit it as is,
if it´s too large - but would not be recognizable if further reduced in size perhaps rather use the Ivan+Khans messenger picture.

Well, I have a resolution of 1200x800 so I can see it well.
A I told you I can't tell if it fits as you need to see it in a properly displayed event.

 

[almoravid]

I'll not oppose Bordic's post. But consider updating the province ids in the trigger.

Ryazan in AGCEEP is in prov. 449. Vladimir is in 448.

 

[Bordic]

I'll not oppose Bordic's post. But consider updating the province ids in the trigger.

Ryazan in AGCEEP is in prov. 449. Vladimir is in 448.

I didn't change it. So I assume it was a bug since the beginning. In 1419 scenario RYA has 449 as starting province. Even in revolt.txt it is 449. So why wasn't this 448 never changed?

Could you make a thorough suggestion for every event dealing with the Empire of Russia for each Russian minor?

In the first part of the trigger I see that, for example, Novgorod desn't need to eventually own Ryazan. But it is the case for Ryazan.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I can' say. Never used. But is we use an event for each country, we wouldn't need it.
Well, I have a resolution of 1200x800 so I can see it well.
A I told you I can't tell if it fits as you need to see it in a properly displayed event.

That was what I meant. Saving the .bmp file in the /AGCEEP/GFX/Events folder and adding the yellow style line to the Standing at the Ugra event.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I didn't change it. So I assume it was a bug since the beginning. In 1419 scenario RYA has 449 as starting province. Even in revolt.txt it is 449. So why wasn't this 448 never changed?

Probably it´s that way since AGCEEP first moved Moscow from the province labeled Moscow to Tula because it fits geographically better. The names of the provinces in the # remarks in the events are those as they are written on the map.

Could you make a thorough suggestion for every event dealing with the Empire of Russia for each Russian minor?
In the first part of the trigger I see that, for example, Novgorod desn't need to eventually own Ryazan. But it is the case for Ryazan.

Every russian minor should have as first condition to own and control it´s own capital just like Muscovy has for it´s capital in Tula province. So NOV needs to own Novgorod, RYA needs to own Ryazan (where it´s located now), TVE Tver and Pskov owns Pskov.

And every russian state should have to annex at least two of the other states - NOV, RYA and TVE have to annex Muscovy (and own/control Tula) and one of the other russian states, MOS just has to annex at least one of the others.

 

[Bordic]

@ ConjurerDragon

Please check the trigger in your suggestion to modify MOS_40010 in post #90.

As it is now it wouldn't work and I also invite you to script the triggers using the tab key for a better understanding of each operator.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

@ ConjurerDragon

Please check the trigger in your suggestion to modify MOS_40010 in post #90.

As it is now it wouldn't work and I also invite you to script the triggers using the tab key for a better understanding of each operator.

Updated my post 90. I had 1 bracket } too much in the trigger. When triggered manually the event triggers fine now.
Better readable now?

 

[Bordic]

Updated my post 90. I had 1 bracket } too much in the trigger. When triggered manually the event triggers fine now.
Better readable now?

Yes, even if the triggers in the events are normally scripted like this:

	OR = {	
		...
		AND = {
			...
			NOT = {
			}
		}
	}

I meant that when I spoke about understanding the operators. However it isn't mandatory.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

I actually agree that it doesn't make sense to deprive Moscow of leaders and events because Byzantium got itself saved from destruction. It's like making proclamation of Great Britain to be dependent on it being Protestant, because the historically, it was a Protestant (Anglican), and not Catholic England, that formed Britain. It's not like the Russian Duke can't pull off a Dushan and proclaim himself to be the emperor regardless of Constantinople's claims. And, like it had already been mentioned, Russia's claim to continue the Roman Empire was only semi-official - the list of the Czar's titles didn't mention Rome.

So you played the game until 1820 and BYZ never ever was annexed by anyone while MOS had fulfilled all other conditions to become Russia? Astonishingly rare situation.

Player intervention in the Balkans or Asia Minor can make it possible.

 

[Bordic]

According to Almoravid's suggestion to add in the trigger of MOS_40010:

	OR = {	ai = yes
		NOT = { exists = STE } 
	}

What I wanted to simulate is the support Ivan III, even though no longer vassal of the Horde, gave to the Crimeans so they could eliminate the Golden Horde. It was important to Muscovites that Golden Horde khans never regain their standing in the steppes, as they would certainly also try to reinstate their control over Russia. Crimeans and others had no such claims.

I think we could also include it. In case we would need to reduce the requested 190 relation to BYZ to a more acceptable 150.



EDIT: We don't have to forget to add following lines too:

	ai = {
		flags = {
			[Fantasy_BYZ] = yes
		}
	}

in the BYZ_Byzantine_Empire.inc file located in the fantasy byzantium scenario:

country = {
	tag = BYZ

[B]...[/B]

	ai = "SmallTrade1.ai"

if one plays BYZ fantasy scenario and wants MOS_40010 to fire.

 

[Bordic]

I actually agree that it doesn't make sense to deprive Moscow of leaders and events because Byzantium got itself saved from destruction. It's like making proclamation of Great Britain to be dependent on it being Protestant, because the historically, it was a Protestant (Anglican), and not Catholic England, that formed Britain. It's not like the Russian Duke can't pull off a Dushan and proclaim himself to be the emperor regardless of Constantinople's claims. And, like it had already been mentioned, Russia's claim to continue the Roman Empire was only semi-official - the list of the Czar's titles didn't mention Rome.


Player intervention in the Balkans or Asia Minor can make it possible.

So, do you mean we need to completely remove all references to BYZ from the trigger of MOS_40010?

Since I have seen two opposite ways of approaching this topic: ConjurerDragon's and almoravid's, I have thought to suggest a mild "middle" solution...