A Paradox Christmas Carol

[EGaffney]

Not sure I like the idea of Irish being in the same culture group as the UK [...]

The Irish and English/Scottish/Welsh cultures are closer to each other than to any others, including near relatives like American culture. What's more, they were even closer before the Irish cultural revival in the late 1800s. The only other option for Irish would be: 1. separate status, which seems like little more than an irredentist political statement in the historical context, or 2. some kind of Breton/Galician group, which is not really credible - would the average Irishman and the average Breton really have that much in common? As for discrimination, there was no difference in legal status between Irish and other ethnicities in the UK during the Victorian era; these had all been repealed after the Act of Union and Catholic Emancipation. To compare the position of the Irish in the UK to the position of African-Americans in the USA is misleading, no matter whether self-pitying people said it or not.

 

[unmerged(131989)]

I really like this concept as it allows a great deal of flexibility, particularly in otherwise ahistoric contexts. What I will be intrigued to find out is how immigration might affect this; will migrants assimilate so-much-so that they fully embrace their union tag immediately, or will it take time? Something for another developer diary, no doubt.

 

[Trovador]

Great Dev. Diary, King, Victoria2 sounds each time more promissing!

This system looks like quite perfect for the time scope of this game, as it handles very well with both the unifications and secessions that occured (or could have occured).
You said about the three cultures inside the American Culture Group, and I was thinking you could do something similar to Latin America. More specifically, there could be a Brazilian Culture Group, with Brazil as union tag and the cultures:
-Gaucho, in southern Brazil, that revolted as the Piratini or Rio Grandense Republic at the start of the Victoria timeframe; (to not overlap cultures, the "gauchos" in spanish regions could be simply called "platineans", IMHO).
-Nordestino, from northeastern Brazil, much more favourable to slavery and other conservative views. They were the "agricultural power" and most "precious" part of Brazil in the colonial times, but became decadent after that, exactly like the Dixies in comparison with the yankees (except that the Dixies were in the South and the Yankees in the north, and in Brazil it was the reverse). They rebelled a little before the Victorial timeframe too, with the Confederação do Equador in 1824 - and there were many other smaller revolts within the XIX century, that could be taken, in game, as revolts of the Nordestinos pops rather than hard-coded events, as they were in Vicky1 (or was it in VIP?).
-Brazilian itself, or maybe Sulista (while they weren't the southernmost region, sometimes the Nordestinos call the Southeastern ones "Southerns" of Sulistas). It would not be fair to name then after one of the states of the region, though. They, as the yankees, did not have a separatist movement, but, if needed, one could use the Inconfidência Mineira, from 1789, as a base for an separatist Sulista state - its symbol, a red triangle with the motto "Libertas Quae Sera Tamen" (Freedom, even if delayed) would be certainly used if they wanted to succeed.

---

Another thing I think would be interesting is at least one unifier state for each culture in a Culture Group. For example, I always missed a Rhinelander Nation to be formed as a puppet state when playing with France and conquering that area. I don't know if - or how - it would be historical, but the creation of a unified puppet state would be really plausible in this situation. By the way, would "Rhinelander" be a culture inside the German Culture Group?

 

[ashandresash]

The 'national issue' was one feature I was expecting to know a little more... and it looks fantastic! Nation-building was one of the focus on XIX century, and Vicky1 solution (events) was not the best. I also want to support the idea of making different the 'cores' (territorial) from majority population of the province, as that's the way nationalism worked (and works).

But overall, thank you, King for this present and your attention!

 

[Nikolai]

Great! King, whatever PI is paying you, it's not enough. One question about forming Germany: In the 1800s, there were two different thoughts about forming Germany IIUC, Germany as Prussia did it, and Grossdeutschland, with Austria and their lands included too. Will this last one be an Austria only possibility, within the Germany union tag, or will it be another tag? IIRC, it was in Vicky1, so I guess it's in the game in some way this time too.

 

[Saulot]

This game sounds like it is shaping up quite well.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Sounds interesting, but how do you deal with border regions which might be claimed by more then one "nation". Alsace Lorraine immediately comes to mind. Will the area be German, or French? And who will they seek to revolt towards? Will it be just the individual pops? But what about Calais? This area is even today very "dutch", and might seek to join a unified Dutch state.

Also perhaps the "annexable" property could be lost if some form of "loyalist" element of the local pops no longer exists or something. For instance how would Northern Ireland be properly shown? We have two pops, Irish, and Ulster Scots each going at each other. Could the Irish be programmed to behave regionally, while the Ulsters Scots try to remain loyal?

Maybe it would be more accurate to have Anglo Irish, Irish and Ulster Scots in Ireland, the Anglo Irish would generally be well behaved, and part of the English culture group, while the Irish would remain in a seperate one. At game start Anglo Irish could be the majority, but events could occur causing them to join the Irish Pop(generally in the fringe in 1836), if an English player manages the place well, the Irish could be eventually well assimilated, or something.

It's a pretty sticky thing to get just right.

 

[unmerged(131989)]

Great! King, whatever PI is paying you, it's not enough. One question about forming Germany: In the 1800s, there were two different thoughts about forming Germany IIUC, Germany as Prussia did it, and Grossdeutschland, with Austria and their lands included too. Will this last one be an Austria only possibility, within the Germany union tag, or will it be another tag? IIRC, it was in Vicky1, so I guess it's in the game in some way this time too.

As I understand this developer's diary, Klein- and Gross- Deutchland will both be possible under the right circumstances. Moreover, the nationalities must consider themselves part of the union tag for it to be viable, and then the right conditions met thereafter (which on both accounts I imagine will be there - King even mentioned Brunswick creating Germany!).

 

[Jolt]

Great Dev. Diary, King, Victoria2 sounds each time more promissing!

This system looks like quite perfect for the time scope of this game, as it handles very well with both the unifications and secessions that occured (or could have occured).
You said about the three cultures inside the American Culture Group, and I was thinking you could do something similar to Latin America. More specifically, there could be a Brazilian Culture Group, with Brazil as union tag and the cultures:
-Gaucho, in southern Brazil, that revolted as the Piratini or Rio Grandense Republic at the start of the Victoria timeframe; (to not overlap cultures, the "gauchos" in spanish regions could be simply called "platineans", IMHO).
-Nordestino, from northeastern Brazil, much more favourable to slavery and other conservative views. They were the "agricultural power" and most "precious" part of Brazil in the colonial times, but became decadent after that, exactly like the Dixies in comparison with the yankees (except that the Dixies were in the South and the Yankees in the north, and in Brazil it was the reverse). They rebelled a little before the Victorial timeframe too, with the Confederação do Equador in 1824 - and there were many other smaller revolts within the XIX century, that could be taken, in game, as revolts of the Nordestinos pops rather than hard-coded events, as they were in Vicky1 (or was it in VIP?).
-Brazilian itself, or maybe Sulista (while they weren't the southernmost region, sometimes the Nordestinos call the Southeastern ones "Southerns" of Sulistas). It would not be fair to name then after one of the states of the region, though. They, as the yankees, did not have a separatist movement, but, if needed, one could use the Inconfidência Mineira, from 1789, as a base for an separatist Sulista state - its symbol, a red triangle with the motto "Libertas Quae Sera Tamen" (Freedom, even if delayed) would be certainly used if they wanted to succeed.

About the Brazillian culture group, heck, if Portugal doesn't remain in the Iberian Union Tag, it'd make sense for it to be in some kind of union tag with Brazil. Brazil had primarilly inhabitted by Portuguese colonists, their Emperor was Portuguese and both countries had only recently split from the "United Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil" in 1822.

 

[unmerged(91061)]

Here's a contentious question, will Quebec peoples be considered part of the French group or the Canadian Group? Or are Canadians part of the British group or a possible forth member of the America group? Are Canadians part of the same group as Australians? Are New Zealanders part of the same group as Australians? Are Boers part of the same group as Dutch (and Wallonians)?

Whatever the answer, it doesn't really matter because they're all so very very easily moddable.

 

[GregoryTheBruce]

Sounds interesting, but how do you deal with border regions which might be claimed by more then one "nation". Alsace Lorraine immediately comes to mind. Will the area be German, or French? And who will they seek to revolt towards? Will it be just the individual pops? But what about Calais? This area is even today very "dutch", and might seek to join a unified Dutch state.

From what we've seen in the thread, I'd imagine Alsace-Lorraine would have French and German POPs, who would each favor their own Union Country, and both France and Germany would have cores on the area, ethnic identity notwithstanding. Did the Netherlands make political claims on Calais? If so, cores. That seems to be the model being used, if I'm interpreting correctly.

 

[Trovador]

About the Brazillian culture group, heck, if Portugal doesn't remain in the Iberian Union Tag, it'd make sense for it to be in some kind of union tag with Brazil. Brazil had primarilly inhabitted by Portuguese colonists, their Emperor was Portuguese and both countries had only recently split from the "United Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil" in 1822.

I agree that both cultures had a lot in common, and even formed a union not much time before Victoria, but in the XIX Century the particularities of the brazilian cultures had much more relevance than the one with the Portuguese. In a dirty example, it would be like put all the North Americans inside the same Cultural Group of the British - it makes sense, but in the timeframe of the game there are other more interesting things to work about.

Even if the "cultural similarity" between Portugueses and Brazilians was much bigger than the English-American analogue, it still sounds as a waste of such a feature, as putting the Brazilians in its own culture group would allow to show many historical events without the need to hardcode them, that is one of the objectives and wonders of this system. And, as the Culture tag would be something that obviously would unite both countries, it would sound a little counter-intuitive to have a "recolonial" movement in the XIX century, based on liberals and nationalists: the one between Portugal and Brazil, IOTL, ended with the exile of the Portuguese king in 1831, showing that the time for such events had already gone.

In a final point, well, the Portuguese can always stay in the Iberian Culture Group - the unification moviment of Iberia never happened exactly because the liberal pops never had such high militancy to seek for it - so, it makes sense with the ingame rules.

 

[Ex Mudder]

Maybe the dev dairy wasn't clear as it could. I ment there are three American Cultures, Yankee, Dixie and Texan with the USA as the union tag for the culture group. Our current idea with the Irish is they are part of the British culture group with the UK as the Union Tag, but there is of course an Irish revolter defined at start.

No Alta California Culture? Or some other name for a US revolter in Northern Mexico / Western US (49ers?)?

Seems like the pan national tag idea would work great for modelling US expansion westward to the Pacific, but south of Canada.

Probably something Modders could come up with. I always thought that grabbing Ca in Vicky 1 was clunky, there should be a good way to use these ideas to model Ca moving into US sphere and joining the US. Even if ahistorical, letting the US demand that "Alta California" be released as an independent nation which is then brought into the US might be easier to model using what you already have than some sort of Mainfest Destiny decision or treaty of Guadolupe Hildalgo decision / war outcome.

The discovery of gold in California and elsewhere will be scripted, not random, I hope? Random gold discoveries, like the way EU 3 now handles trade goods, would wreck my immersion.

 

[Jolt]

I agree that both cultures had a lot in common, and even formed a union not much time before Victoria, but in the XIX Century the particularities of the brazilian cultures had much more relevance than the one with the Portuguese. In a dirty example, it would be like put all the North Americans inside the same Cultural Group of the British - it makes sense, but in the timeframe of the game there are other more interesting things to work about.

Even if the "cultural similarity" between Portugueses and Brazilians was much bigger than the English-American analogue, it still sounds as a waste of such a feature, as putting the Brazilians in its own culture group would allow to show many historical events without the need to hardcode them, that is one of the objectives and wonders of this system. And, as the Culture tag would be something that obviously would unite both countries, it would sound a little counter-intuitive to have a "recolonial" movement in the XIX century, based on liberals and nationalists: the one between Portugal and Brazil, IOTL, ended with the exile of the Portuguese king in 1831, showing that the time for such events had already gone.

In a final point, well, the Portuguese can always stay in the Iberian Culture Group - the unification moviment of Iberia never happened exactly because the liberal pops never had such high militancy to seek for it - so, it makes sense with the ingame rules.

Indeed, from what I read, there was still a very heavy Portuguese influence in Brazillian politics until Pedro's I exile. So much that many of the Brazillian elite never saw the independence with good eyes. Not so sure how that developed in Pedro's II reign.

 

[King]

I really like this concept as it allows a great deal of flexibility, particularly in otherwise ahistoric contexts. What I will be intrigued to find out is how immigration might affect this; will migrants assimilate so-much-so that they fully embrace their union tag immediately, or will it take time? Something for another developer diary, no doubt.

Migration is not affected by the Union tag, if you are leaving the country to go else where then you are leaving. Migration is not fuly set up yet, however for those of you who are interested it is plain scripts in the POP type files using an MTTH model to determine where to go.

 

[King]

Great Dev. Diary, King, Victoria2 sounds each time more promissing!

This system looks like quite perfect for the time scope of this game, as it handles very well with both the unifications and secessions that occured (or could have occured).
You said about the three cultures inside the American Culture Group, and I was thinking you could do something similar to Latin America. More specifically, there could be a Brazilian Culture Group, with Brazil as union tag and the cultures:
-Gaucho, in southern Brazil, that revolted as the Piratini or Rio Grandense Republic at the start of the Victoria timeframe; (to not overlap cultures, the "gauchos" in spanish regions could be simply called "platineans", IMHO).
-Nordestino, from northeastern Brazil, much more favourable to slavery and other conservative views. They were the "agricultural power" and most "precious" part of Brazil in the colonial times, but became decadent after that, exactly like the Dixies in comparison with the yankees (except that the Dixies were in the South and the Yankees in the north, and in Brazil it was the reverse). They rebelled a little before the Victorial timeframe too, with the Confederação do Equador in 1824 - and there were many other smaller revolts within the XIX century, that could be taken, in game, as revolts of the Nordestinos pops rather than hard-coded events, as they were in Vicky1 (or was it in VIP?).
-Brazilian itself, or maybe Sulista (while they weren't the southernmost region, sometimes the Nordestinos call the Southeastern ones "Southerns" of Sulistas). It would not be fair to name then after one of the states of the region, though. They, as the yankees, did not have a separatist movement, but, if needed, one could use the Inconfidência Mineira, from 1789, as a base for an separatist Sulista state - its symbol, a red triangle with the motto "Libertas Quae Sera Tamen" (Freedom, even if delayed) would be certainly used if they wanted to succeed.

---

Another thing I think would be interesting is at least one unifier state for each culture in a Culture Group. For example, I always missed a Rhinelander Nation to be formed as a puppet state when playing with France and conquering that area. I don't know if - or how - it would be historical, but the creation of a unified puppet state would be really plausible in this situation. By the way, would "Rhinelander" be a culture inside the German Culture Group?

German culture is only North and South German, no Rhinelander and things like that. We are trying to keep the number of cultures down for game play reasons. It might be cool to have a melting pot province with hundreds of cultures but it makes a nightmare for the player trying to figure out who is living there, are they happy or unhappy and why? So you are not going to see these these really complicated cultural grouping in Victoria 2.

 

[unmerged(3921)]

>Cores are static and ignore who lives there.

But what happens after you conquer a province? Do you never get a core on that province, even after you hold it for 75 years? Or are you referring only to "cores" as they affect union tag/nation forming?

 

[King]

Here's a contentious question, will Quebec peoples be considered part of the French group or the Canadian Group? Or are Canadians part of the British group or a possible forth member of the America group? Are Canadians part of the same group as Australians? Are New Zealanders part of the same group as Australians? Are Boers part of the same group as Dutch (and Wallonians)?

Whatever the answer, it doesn't really matter because they're all so very very easily moddable.

Well should France fall we don't want Quebec forming France and should Quebec be independent (I am not sure if it is even a revolter at the moment) we don't want France annexing them straight off. So the Quebec people will have to be kept out of the French Culture group for game play reasons. Now when talking about Candain people, let's face it the Americans are far more primiative than Candains. Back when my ancestors were banging rocks together and wondering what would happen if you mixed copper and tin together people were talking about republics. No Canadians are an advanced people with a proper monarch, with her own Church (might not be my church but it's the thought that counts), so do not belong inside the American culture group. Of course Boers do not belong inside the Dutch culture group. Why would the Dutch get a free shot at annexing Transval, why should a new Holland appear in Southern Africa? It makes no sense at all. Culture groups are very much strucutred towards game play.

 

[King]

>Cores are static and ignore who lives there.

But what happens after you conquer a province? Do you never get a core on that province, even after you hold it for 75 years? Or are you referring only to "cores" as they affect union tag/nation forming?

After you conquer a province, you conquer a province. Just because you have conquered Hong Kong doesn't make it part of the British National home.

 

[King]

Sounds interesting, but how do you deal with border regions which might be claimed by more then one "nation". Alsace Lorraine immediately comes to mind. Will the area be German, or French? And who will they seek to revolt towards? Will it be just the individual pops? But what about Calais? This area is even today very "dutch", and might seek to join a unified Dutch state.

Also perhaps the "annexable" property could be lost if some form of "loyalist" element of the local pops no longer exists or something. For instance how would Northern Ireland be properly shown? We have two pops, Irish, and Ulster Scots each going at each other. Could the Irish be programmed to behave regionally, while the Ulsters Scots try to remain loyal?

Maybe it would be more accurate to have Anglo Irish, Irish and Ulster Scots in Ireland, the Anglo Irish would generally be well behaved, and part of the English culture group, while the Irish would remain in a seperate one. At game start Anglo Irish could be the majority, but events could occur causing them to join the Irish Pop(generally in the fringe in 1836), if an English player manages the place well, the Irish could be eventually well assimilated, or something.

It's a pretty sticky thing to get just right.

Alsace Lorriane is a core of both countries, both sides want it and unless one side is very much weaker than the other they will be rivals to take and hold it.

There is going to be no culture group inflation here. The British culture group is the British and the Irish. The Ulster Scots are simply British, let's face it there is no one more British than the loyal sons of Ulster. The Irish and the Anglo Irish are the same culture, just one if very much more militant than the other. The game mechanics give a simple and elegant solution to this problem, that is easy to follow. It avoids the need for scripted events to force. Plus I don't think the annexation thing should be dropped, instead if the Irish really want a shot at winning independence they should perhaps wait until Britain is exhausted after a long war, and to prevent Britain coming back later perhaps agree to be a dominion of the Empire. Although what are the odds of that happening?