A Paradox Christmas Carol

[King]

Amazing indeed. Lots of good news and ideas.

Nice to hear also that countries can secede in dire situations. I must say seeing a defeated Germany having to fight a secessionist Bavaria and Rhineland (these one were also quite serious in their independence will) will be a must have.

By the way, how will Belgium be simulated? Will you add a wallonian culture or stick with Vic1 type?
And also will france pops be splitted among more locals culture united in an union tag or be the Vic1 thing?

Well the culture groups are still up the air at the moment. All I can really talk about is the kind of ideas were are bouncing about. So anything I say now may not make it into the game, however it might give you an idea of what we are thinking about. Dutch, Flemish, Wallonian all go together in a Low countries culuture with a United Netherlands union tag, hey that country has just fallen apart. French is a single culture in a culture group of its own. France goes through a lot of revolutionary activity in the Victoria period yet you do not see powerful succession movements, we do not feel that France really should have revolters. It has a strong national identity which is strong enough to survive things like the 1848 revolutions, the Franco-Prussian war, the hell of Verdun. So as things stand at the moment we don't see lots of local cultures, except perhaps Breton.

 

[BlueWarrior]

Thanks King - hope you (and all at Paradox too) have a nice Christmas.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

Hurrah for the developer diary (whch is almost exactly what I had hoped to see regarding national unification movements), and hurrah again for King's tireless dedication!

 

[Emp_Palpatine]

And even not french flemish and "wallonian" in northern provinces? Yes, I know, parochial demand as I'm from there... I agree with revolters: it's highly improbable in the time frame. Regional cultures are more to be weight IMHO. The fact that flemish language was forbidden, just like breton one, shows these cultures were quite vivid.

Awesome news for the union tag in the low countries! Can't wait to unit them and go after France with some powerfull ally to grap the occupied southern Netherlands.

By the way, it's a little bit exagerated, but what about arab cultures? Will there be some union tag as well? Say Civilized Egypt becoming the center of unification of other backward arab states? Pan Arabism appaered in the end of the time Frame (think Michel Aflak Baathism)...

 

[unmerged(91061)]

add_core is an event command so it is more than possible for modders to take that route if they wish. We are not going to do that for various reasons. The main one is we do not feel it is historic.

I think paradox is right to not do that, and remaining largely within "historic" parameters is a worthy goal. Once you start including various ahistorical features like, say, the Union of Italians and Bosnians, you lead player's "down the garden path" by giving them glimpses of what's possible but hasn't been done.

Although I do have a further inquiry, is there an event trigger based on POP proportion in a province? Suppose in the Vanilla Vick2 there was an event for the USA when the majority of a province's population changed from pro-slavery to anti-slavery, or visa versa, the CSA would gain/lose a core on that province when it revolts.
Basically, can provincial population proportions be event triggers?

 

[King]

I think paradox is right to not do that, and remaining largely within "historic" parameters is a worthy goal. Once you start including various ahistorical features like, say, the Union of Italians and Bosnians, you lead player's "down the garden path" by giving them glimpses of what's possible but hasn't been done.

Although I do have a further inquiry, is there an event trigger based on POP proportion in a province? Suppose in the Vanilla Vick2 there was an event for the USA when the majority of a province's population changed from pro-slavery to anti-slavery, or visa versa, the CSA would gain/lose a core on that province when it revolts.
Basically, can provincial population proportions be event triggers?

Yes

 

[Oorlog]

Thanks for the present! Looks like this will be a nice added gameplay immersion feature thingy

 

[Macs]

Oh, what a nice surprise DD. Sounds like a very good concept, hopefully it works well in the real game.

Thank you King, for taking the time to post, even on holidays. Such devotion.

 

[alvaro]

We have two choices here, both are still on the table. We can make a Spanish culture group with SPA as the Union tag and have countries like the Basque country and Catalonia to be revolters from that. The alternative is a an Iberian culture group and include Protugal in. It will depend a bit on time, what evidence we can find for a great iberia movement, and what seems the coolest.

it would be nice. it should be unlikely but not imposible, i believe. iberian union has been there ever since middle XIX and even today but more at intelectual-popular levels rather than among the politic classes.

whatever you decide finally let's better do it in a form that doesn't provoke wars between spain and portugal due to the cultural/core setup because, i think, that would be very weird.

OTOH, i try to speak carefully here, but it's my opinion that it's much history fiction an independent Catalonia or Basque country in the v2 time frame. very late in the game, it might be, but dunno.

it's complicated to be right in this matter but if you look at what actually happened it's by far more important politic revolters than regionalistic. (here the 2 revolts that could be considered as such in the game imo,(other than calists warsr) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_Week et http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonalismo <babelfish this one, sorry)

i'll drop the question in the spanish forum if you want. some people there know quite a lot about contemporary history.

 

[King]

it would be nice. it should be unlikely but not imposible, i believe. iberian union has been there ever since middle XIX and even today but more at intelectual-popular levels rather than among the politic classes.

whatever you decide finally let's better do it in a form that doesn't provoke wars between spain and portugal due to the cultural/core setup because, i think, that would be very weird.

OTOH, i try to speak carefully here, but it's my opinion that it's much history fiction an independent Catalonia or Basque country in the v2 time frame. very late in the game, it might be, but dunno.

it's complicated to be right in this matter but if you look at what actually happened it's by far more important politic revolters than regionalistic. (here the 2 revolts that could be considered as such in the game imo,(other than calists warsr) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_Week et http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonalismo <babelfish this one, sorry)

i'll drop the question in the spanish forum if you want. some people there know quite a lot about contemporary history.

I have been to Barcelona if you look on some of the late 19th centruy buildings you will see the shield of Aragon on them. The symbology of Catalan national awakening is there, just look at the badge of the Barcelona football club. Plus Victoria goes into the 1930s where you see limited Catalan automony during the second Spanish republic. So although there was no independant Catalonia during the period the potential was these so this is one of the avenues were are conisdering.

 

[alvaro]

I have been to Barcelona if you look on some of the late 19th centruy buildings you will see the shield of Aragon on them. The symbology of Catalan national awakening is there, just look at the badge of the Barcelona football club. Plus Victoria goes into the 1930s where you see limited Catalan automony during the second Spanish republic. So although there was no independant Catalonia during the period the potential was these so this is one of the avenues were are conisdering.

no, i didn't explain myself well. actually is more that i don't feel like wrting much today
what i mean is that catalonians where much involved in the state and the gobvernment in middle/late XIX so it look to me quite unrealistic to have nationalistic revolts at that time as the core of their nationalism (bourgeoisie class) was happy about the way they could try to control economic policy mainly. _in game terms_. of course i am not saying that nationalism in catalonia was not there nor i want to drive this thread to this point . you know, 20000 revolters killing for their independence in the XIXthC? personally i don't see it but, as the iberian union, it's unlikely but not imposible.

what i tried to point out is the fact that revolters in the period where all related to ideollogy rather than regionalism and the 2 incidents i linked to you were actually very important in spanish history. i just drop this ball, do what you want with it.

as for the shields. Aragon references are very poor for latent nationalism. keep in mind that even barcelona's shield, as many shields in many places in that area has references to aragon shield.

 

[MannheimCouncil]

Very nice carol, erm, diary. That sounds much better than the simple event for forming Germany. I really feared that it would be too easy. Losing the union tag is also a great thing. The CSA will have to decide if they just want to end the war or if they'd rather take away the North's easy chance for re-forming the Union, too.

I hope there will be some ahistorical unions, though. An Austrian Union with the southern German states seems much more likely than a Greater Germany that annihilates Prussia. Partial Indian unions seem more likely, too.

 

[ABosnian]

Good dev diary. I like the fact that you are going to use the union tag model for nationalism.

If I understand it correctly, if say, a Hungarian state emerges from the ashes of Austria-Hungary, and sees a province in Slovakia that's even 10% (or whatever the minimum percent is) Hungarian populated, they will go for that province?

Also, will we be able to gerrymander state borders to create desired majorities/minorities in certain states? (Something akin to this maybe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_austria_ethnic.svg)

 

[LeeDub]

add_core is an event command so it is more than possible for modders to take that route if they wish. We are not going to do that for various reasons. The main one is we do not feel it is historic.

Is there a dynamic core gain/lose system like in EU3?

 

[Txini]

We have two choices here, both are still on the table. We can make a Spanish culture group with SPA as the Union tag and have countries like the Basque country and Catalonia to be revolters from that. The alternative is a an Iberian culture group and include Protugal in. It will depend a bit on time, what evidence we can find for a great iberia movement, and what seems the coolest.

Well Chris, there was an Iberist Movement, but was not too powerfull, their main time was with the 1868 Glorious Revolution in Spain, when a new Monarch was to be elected, one of the Candidates was the King-Consort of Portugal, and his descendents the Kings of Portugal, but he had not enough support, main Candidates were General Espartero, who declined to be elected, Leopold von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen and Amadeus of Savoy, Duke of Aosta, who was finally elected, also were candidates Prince Alphonse, the son of Isabella II and future Alphonse XII and Anthony of Orleans, Duke of Montpensieur, who was brother in law of Queen Isabella.

But if you join Portuguese with the Spanish Group Union Tag should be Iberia

 

[King]

no, i didn't explain myself well. actually is more that i don't feel like wrting much today
what i mean is that catalonians where much involved in the state and the gobvernment in middle/late XIX so it look to me quite unrealistic to have nationalistic revolts at that time as the core of their nationalism (bourgeoisie class) was happy about the way they could try to control economic policy mainly. _in game terms_. of course i am not saying that nationalism in catalonia was not there nor i want to drive this thread to this point . you know, 20000 revolters killing for their independence in the XIXthC? personally i don't see it but, as the iberian union, it's unlikely but not imposible.

what i tried to point out is the fact that revolters in the period where all related to ideollogy rather than regionalism and the 2 incidents i linked to you were actually very important in spanish history. i just drop this ball, do what you want with it.

as for the shields. Aragon references are very poor for latent nationalism. keep in mind that even barcelona's shield, as many shields in many places in that area has references to aragon shield.

Isn't that in game terms the Spanish state keeping the Catalan pops in general low militancy so they don't feel like revolting? However these things are not fixed.

 

[King]

Good dev diary. I like the fact that you are going to use the union tag model for nationalism.

If I understand it correctly, if say, a Hungarian state emerges from the ashes of Austria-Hungary, and sees a province in Slovakia that's even 10% (or whatever the minimum percent is) Hungarian populated, they will go for that province?

Also, will we be able to gerrymander state borders to create desired majorities/minorities in certain states? (Something akin to this maybe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_austria_ethnic.svg)

Cores are static and ignore who lives there.

 

[King]

Well Chris, there was an Iberist Movement, but was not too powerfull, their main time was with the 1868 Glorious Revolution in Spain, when a new Monarch was to be elected, one of the Candidates was the King-Consort of Portugal, and his descendents the Kings of Portugal, but he had not enough support, main Candidates were General Espartero, who declined to be elected, Leopold von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen and Amadeus of Savoy, Duke of Aosta, who was finally elected, also were candidates Prince Alphonse, the son of Isabella II and future Alphonse XII and Anthony of Orleans, Duke of Montpensieur, who was brother in law of Queen Isabella.

But if you join Portuguese with the Spanish Group Union Tag should be Iberia

Well Iberia is an option we are considering.

 

[darkfloppy]

Great!!!

Iberia, Scandinavia, great germany... Options (harder options not easy) is good idea.

More options more funny.

 

[ABosnian]

Cores are static and ignore who lives there.

Alright, but one can always stir up some revolts to get the desired provinces, right?

Also, related to this is something that would be nice to see in the game, (which I also hope to maybe see in EU3) is for revolters to fight one another. There are a lot of times in EU3 where you can have Catholic and Protestant Zealots attacking the same province, together, without conflict between them. I'm hoping that this doesn't happen with nationalist revolters in Victoria 2.