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King

Part Time Game Designer
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Dec 7, 2001
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  • Crusader Kings II
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  • Victoria 2 Beta
Ebenezer Forumite looked about him for the Ghost, and saw it not. As the last stroke ceased to vibrate, he remembered the prediction of old Johan Andersson, and lifting up his eyes, beheld a solemn Phantom, draped and hooded, coming, like a mist along the ground, towards him.

STAVE IV: THE LAST OF THE SPIRITS

The Phantom slowly, gravely, silently, approached. When it came near him, Forumite bent down upon his knee: for in the very air through which this Spirit moved it seemed to scatter gloom and mystery.

It was shrouded in a deep black garment, which concealed its head, its face, its form, and left nothing visible save one outstretched hand. But for this it would have been difficult to detach its figure from the night, and separate it from the darkness by which it was surrounded.

He felt that it was tall and stately when it came beside him, and that its mysterious presence filled him with a solemn dread. He knew no more, for the Spirit neither spoke nor moved.

“I am in the presence of the Ghost of Victoria 2 Yet to Come?” said Forumite.

The Spirit answered not, but pointed onward with its hand.

“You are about to show me shadows of the features that have not been implemented, but will be implemented in the time before us,” Forumite pursued, “Is that so, Spirit?”


Air travel is a pain. Obviously your flight is going to be delayed in Arlanda meaning you have to sprint across Heathrow to make your connection, only to find that that flight is delayed too. Luggage is, of course, an option extra and arrives a day or two after you, if you are lucky. However it also gives you a lot of spare time you never thought you had. So I began to write a developer dairy. As it turns out there was no diary scheduled for this topic so I figured you can get it as a Christmas bonus.

What to do about Nations forming? This is one of those tough questions we need to think about, obviously we want Countries like Germany, Italy, Romania and Yugoslavia to form because they did. We also want countries like Scandinavia and other Pan-Slav nations to be able to form because people seriously talked about this. If we are really clever we could also add in nations like Grand Colombia, which did exist a few years before Victoria 2 starts. We starting thinking about this and bouncing about ideas and we remembered a little neat thing in In Nomina, the Union Tag. This country tag is linked to a culture group and this is just the thing we are looking for.

Step one, we reshuffle culture groups so they are now much smaller and more directly linked to the countries that did form in the Victoria era. Culture groups in Victoria 2 began by being very closely linked to the culture groups in EU3. On the face of it they were pretty much linguistic entities of peoples of a similar language. Could we realistically reshuffle these into smaller entities? We realised we could, sitting in the Germanic culture group are the Swiss. Who are themselves a multi linguistic culture. Representing the fact that being German did not make it easier to rule Switzerland, just ask the Habsburgs if you don't believe me. We also break linguistically very similar people down into separate culture groups, there is no English language culture group representing English speakers around the world and we go one further and split Americans into three separate cultures for game play purposes.

The result is that some culture groups are now looking a bit lonely but most, if not all, will have a Union tag associated with them so you can form the greater nation. Some Union tags already exist at the start. The Swiss culture group has already formed greater Switzerland and are fairly happy with it. The American Culture group has the USA as their Union Tag in play from the start, and we'll explain why later. So we make culture groups much smaller, like the Romanians will now be all on their own in a culture group, but will have the country Romania associated with countries of that culture, thus the states of Wallachia and Moldovia have the potential to form Romania. The same goes for the the German culture group, now condensed down to North and South German. The list goes on, but you see where we are going with this.

The Union Tags are defined as static countries, with set cores representing their territorial aspirations. Now I suppose you are wondering why don't we try to link these cores to where the people of this culture group live? Look at Germany, the German Tag's cores are the provinces that Germany holds in 1871. Now there are provinces there where Germans are not a clear majority and excludes provinces, in Austria, that have a German majority. The Italian claims on places like Dalmatia ignore the fact that some of these places hadn't even seen an Italian since Julius Caesar. While we could argue all day on the precise ethnic composition of Transylvania, but please let's not, however we cannot ignore the fact there are some fairly substantial regions there in the Victoria period were Hungarians were the clear majority. From this we conclude that the 19th century nationalists who drew the boundaries of these new nations totally ignored who was actually living there when they did, so we are going to do the same.

There are two ways you can form a Union Tag. Firstly is by being the the biggest baddest country in the culture group. You are a great power and no other great power has any influence there. You should be thinking along the lines of spheres of influence and province holding here. Spheres of influence can be won and lost on the battlefield, so if you as Prussia defeat Austria in war, you could perhaps get the South German minors out of the Austria Sphere of influence and into the Prussia one. Perhaps you may then need to fight France to remove their influence in Germany, or do you need to conquer the German cores, I don't know? However, once this is done it is time for three Hurrays for the German Emperor. The remaining German minors now get the option to join the new Germany (the AI is odds on to agree this, but a player has a few more options) Now the beauty of this system is that not only allow for a historic crack at forming Germany, but ahistoric possibilities like a powerful Bavaria supplanting Prussia to form Germany is also possible. Perhaps a collapse of both Austria and France will pave the way for Germany without war?

Onto the second way, via liberal revolution. Liberals who live a country of their culture type and the union tag does not exist, and are militant consider becoming Pan-Nationalist rebels. Their logic is simple, our country isn't liberal enough because the liberal voice is not being heard, if the country had a few more liberals then we would be heard. Our neighbour of the same culture group has liberals, let's join together for a louder liberal voice. When Pan-Nationalist rebels overthrow a government they offer the union tag to the most powerful country who meets the conditions. If they accept they become the Union tag and get the chance to inherit only those countries who have a liberal revolution in progress. Thus in 1848 it might not be worthwhile for Prussia to accept the German crown, but in 1859 it may just make sense for Piedmont to accept the Italian crown. Again we set up a historical option with flexibility. If you managed to take on all comers as Brunswick, why should you not form the new Liberal Germany? Note the USCA, also a union tag, does from time to time stage a comeback with this model, but probably won't last. What are the odds of that?

Now countries can revolt away from their union tag, This did of course happen, think of the CSA leaving the USA. Think of the collapse of the United States of Central America. In the aftermath of World War I, Bavarians seriously considered succeeding from Germany. Ukraine did have a brief day in the sun in the 1920's free from Russia, but that didn't last too long. Nationalist Rebels are always possible inside a Union Tag. People who feel that the current government does not represent them for what ever reason may turn to regionalism. You saw then and you see it today.

The final neat power of the union tag is it has some of the annexation restrictions lifted. They can annex countries who's culture is of their culture group and they have a core on the capital. Thus the USA, as the union tag of the American culture group, can annex the CSA to save the Union. The CSA on the other hand cannot do the reverse, all they want is to be left alone.

Now I have been a little sparse on the exact form of things take but that is because the decisions and events are still being scripted. So all in all things will firm up as we go along, but at least you get an overall idea of the concept.

Now I suppose you are wondering if there is a screen shot? Sadly the remaining Paradox staff do not understand the harsh unforgiving nature of the Calvinist God and instead choose not to work on Catholic holidays. I would pray for their souls but they are manifestly destined for eternal torment in hell anyway. Happy New Year everyone.
 
Nice! Well despite your holiday travails you have been quite busy on the forums these holidays King, appreciated greatly btw.

So this sounds very interesting, especially for modders wanting to perhaps do something completely different. Culture groups with smaller bases and union tags is nice although does this raise the number of cultures allowed in a state as official culture? Have to re-read to see if I missed where you said about that... I know a couple nations had more than 2 official cultures in Vicky 1 but not very many... that number would have to raise now.

Depends on the size of the culture groups. These are in plain text files and fully modable of course, adding new countries is again fully modable so this system creates a huge ammount of flexibility for moders. For us, Culture groups will be as large or as small as they need to be. We are considering shunting alll the Indian cultures into a single culture group, creating an India Union tag and then having colonial nationalists being pan-nationalists. However this is still on the drawing board.
 
King, any idea of what sleep is in Sweden? :D

Also great and awesome "sorta" AAR.

No idea, I am home in Scotland at the moment, luggage having finally arrived. :)

This is no AAR, this is a space station, no wait, THIS IS SPARTA, no I am doing it wrong, this is a bonus developer diary.
 
King, any idea of what sleep is in Sweden? :D

Also great and awesome "sorta" AAR.

EDIT: Is Portugal considered by you guys to be inside the "Iberian/Spanish" Union Tag?

We have two choices here, both are still on the table. We can make a Spanish culture group with SPA as the Union tag and have countries like the Basque country and Catalonia to be revolters from that. The alternative is a an Iberian culture group and include Protugal in. It will depend a bit on time, what evidence we can find for a great iberia movement, and what seems the coolest.
 
Very nice. About your reference to the spheres of influence, I'm guessing in the diplomatic negotiations, it will be similar to removing cores from your defeated enemy in EU3? But instead selecting provinces to move into your sphere instead of cores?

How does this system do in terms of balance? Does it allow all sorts of random new nations to pop up, or does it help the game stick to a [mostly] historical path with say Bavaria forming Germany instead of Prussia?

And also, what is the relation between dominant culture pops and their provinces in respect to the culture groups? So if [somehow] the French become the cultural majority in New Zealand does that mean New Zealand is part of the french culture group or just that the dominant culture group in New Zealand is French? I'm little confused... :confused::p

Basically yes, spheres of influence are things that can be won or lost by diplomacy or on the battlefield.

Every nation needs to be scripted first so, there will be no random new nations as such, so the new nations appearing will be controlled. If you look at Germany in 1836, it will be divided up into to two spheres of influence, Prussia in the North and Austria in the South. These two countries are in poll position to form Germany. Now both Bavaria and Hanover are fairly large German states so you can put those two next on the list of candidates to form Germany, it will be a struggle because they first need to dislodge one of the two big players. Every other German minor has the potential to form Germany but the setup being what it is have an uphill struggle to do it.

For culture and provinces they are like Victoria 2, we'll pick a real example here. Large numbers of Italians move to New York, it could be that Italians become the largest single culture in New York province. However Greater Italy does not claim New York as part of the Italian national home, instead these pops will be steadily assimilated into the American Culture group because that's who rules there.
 
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Great Dev Diary, I'm glad you made one on this topic even though it wasn't scheduled.
I think Paradox has made the right decision in adopting the "19th century nationalist" approach and ignoring ethnic populations in determining national boundaries; this is a contentious issue and in terms of the cost vs benefit of time researched vs depth it would add to the game, a prudent decision. However, modders have much more time on their hands, and thus the cost benefit of implementing population based Unification Cores improves substantially.
I am wondering if it will be possible for modders to create events that add cores to Union tags when an ethnic group in one area becomes the majority?

Well to be honest the idea was there will be a decision to form Germany, it wasn't going to make exciting reading. It was only when we began to think about how this decision was to be scripted that we hit upon the Union tag and it became a cool idea for a Dev Diary. You can tank SAS and BMI for the rest.

add_core is an event command so it is more than possible for modders to take that route if they wish. We are not going to do that for various reasons. The main one is we do not feel it is historic.
 
A bonus DD.

So beautiful :'(

So... where's Irish? In the British culture group? Or off on its lonesome?

Three american culture groups? :eek: Is the USA union for all of them? Is that even possible? I tried it in EU3 and the game seemed uncertain how to handle it.

Maybe the dev dairy wasn't clear as it could. I ment there are three American Cultures, Yankee, Dixie and Texan with the USA as the union tag for the culture group. Our current idea with the Irish is they are part of the British culture group with the UK as the Union Tag, but there is of course an Irish revolter defined at start.
 
Amazing indeed. Lots of good news and ideas.

Nice to hear also that countries can secede in dire situations. I must say seeing a defeated Germany having to fight a secessionist Bavaria and Rhineland (these one were also quite serious in their independence will) will be a must have.

By the way, how will Belgium be simulated? Will you add a wallonian culture or stick with Vic1 type?
And also will france pops be splitted among more locals culture united in an union tag or be the Vic1 thing?

Well the culture groups are still up the air at the moment. All I can really talk about is the kind of ideas were are bouncing about. So anything I say now may not make it into the game, however it might give you an idea of what we are thinking about. Dutch, Flemish, Wallonian all go together in a Low countries culuture with a United Netherlands union tag, hey that country has just fallen apart. French is a single culture in a culture group of its own. France goes through a lot of revolutionary activity in the Victoria period yet you do not see powerful succession movements, we do not feel that France really should have revolters. It has a strong national identity which is strong enough to survive things like the 1848 revolutions, the Franco-Prussian war, the hell of Verdun. So as things stand at the moment we don't see lots of local cultures, except perhaps Breton.
 
I think paradox is right to not do that, and remaining largely within "historic" parameters is a worthy goal. Once you start including various ahistorical features like, say, the Union of Italians and Bosnians, you lead player's "down the garden path" by giving them glimpses of what's possible but hasn't been done.

Although I do have a further inquiry, is there an event trigger based on POP proportion in a province? Suppose in the Vanilla Vick2 there was an event for the USA when the majority of a province's population changed from pro-slavery to anti-slavery, or visa versa, the CSA would gain/lose a core on that province when it revolts.
Basically, can provincial population proportions be event triggers?

Yes
 
it would be nice. it should be unlikely but not imposible, i believe. iberian union has been there ever since middle XIX and even today but more at intelectual-popular levels rather than among the politic classes.

whatever you decide finally let's better do it in a form that doesn't provoke wars between spain and portugal due to the cultural/core setup because, i think, that would be very weird.

OTOH, i try to speak carefully here, but it's my opinion that it's much history fiction an independent Catalonia or Basque country in the v2 time frame. very late in the game, it might be, but dunno.

it's complicated to be right in this matter but if you look at what actually happened it's by far more important politic revolters than regionalistic. (here the 2 revolts that could be considered as such in the game imo,(other than calists warsr) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_Week et http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonalismo <babelfish this one, sorry)

i'll drop the question in the spanish forum if you want. some people there know quite a lot about contemporary history.

I have been to Barcelona if you look on some of the late 19th centruy buildings you will see the shield of Aragon on them. The symbology of Catalan national awakening is there, just look at the badge of the Barcelona football club. Plus Victoria goes into the 1930s where you see limited Catalan automony during the second Spanish republic. So although there was no independant Catalonia during the period the potential was these so this is one of the avenues were are conisdering.
 
no, i didn't explain myself well. actually is more that i don't feel like wrting much today :p
what i mean is that catalonians where much involved in the state and the gobvernment in middle/late XIX so it look to me quite unrealistic to have nationalistic revolts at that time as the core of their nationalism (bourgeoisie class) was happy about the way they could try to control economic policy mainly. _in game terms_. of course i am not saying that nationalism in catalonia was not there nor i want to drive this thread to this point ;). you know, 20000 revolters killing for their independence in the XIXthC? personally i don't see it but, as the iberian union, it's unlikely but not imposible. :)

what i tried to point out is the fact that revolters in the period where all related to ideollogy rather than regionalism and the 2 incidents i linked to you were actually very important in spanish history. i just drop this ball, do what you want with it. :D

as for the shields. Aragon references are very poor for latent nationalism. keep in mind that even barcelona's shield, as many shields in many places in that area has references to aragon shield.

Isn't that in game terms the Spanish state keeping the Catalan pops in general low militancy so they don't feel like revolting? However these things are not fixed.
 
Good dev diary. I like the fact that you are going to use the union tag model for nationalism.

If I understand it correctly, if say, a Hungarian state emerges from the ashes of Austria-Hungary, and sees a province in Slovakia that's even 10% (or whatever the minimum percent is) Hungarian populated, they will go for that province?

Also, will we be able to gerrymander state borders to create desired majorities/minorities in certain states? (Something akin to this maybe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_austria_ethnic.svg)

Cores are static and ignore who lives there.
 
Well Chris, there was an Iberist Movement, but was not too powerfull, their main time was with the 1868 Glorious Revolution in Spain, when a new Monarch was to be elected, one of the Candidates was the King-Consort of Portugal, and his descendents the Kings of Portugal, but he had not enough support, main Candidates were General Espartero, who declined to be elected, Leopold von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen and Amadeus of Savoy, Duke of Aosta, who was finally elected, also were candidates Prince Alphonse, the son of Isabella II and future Alphonse XII and Anthony of Orleans, Duke of Montpensieur, who was brother in law of Queen Isabella.

But if you join Portuguese with the Spanish Group Union Tag should be Iberia :p

Well Iberia is an option we are considering.
 
Since this is a feature still-in-development I have a question and proposal.

Will it be possible for a culture to be a member of more than one culture group? Or at least possible for cultures to change groups? If not, could this be considered?

Mutable culture groups would be a great feature, in my opinion. What if, for example, the Irish were a member of the British culture group but broke away in a nationalist revolt, as you mentioned? If they maintained independence and perhaps grew to some level of international recognition, maybe they could get their own culture group, symbolizing international recognition of their sovereignty? To take your USA/CSA example, a CSA that wins the Civil War and maybe a war or two past that might split off into its own culture group, preventing the USA from one-shot annexing it in the future.

Either way, I absolutely love the culture group/union tag idea imported from EUIII in (IMHO) a much more effective way for the 19th century!

No culture groups are statically defined things in a text file, and cultures can belong to one group only. So what we start with is what we will finish with.
 
What alvaro says is basically correct. The Iberian ideal was always cherished in through the intelectual circles. It never got much support in the political classes, nor at popular level. There simply wasn't a popular desire to unify the Portugal and Spain (Sort of like when the Liberal Revolution happened in Germany, the German people call for a union between all German States).

The ideal was mostly concentrated in the masonry up until today.

One exception was of Manuel Azaña, who was a Federalist proponent and supporter of integration of both countries. He supported (Gave financial and military aid, although triffling) to a small coup which happened in the 1931, and that was quickly crushed.

Beyond that, the class that absolutely mattered in regards to a "Liberal Pan-Unification"; the people, both sides weren't interested in joining with the other side. Several centuries of warfare, a fiercely independent Portuguese people and elite prevented such a move from happening.

There is a good book on that. "Espanhois e Portugal" (In Portuguese) by José Freire Antunes, which does an intensive analysis of all dealings between Spain and Portugal, with special incidence of the Iberism concept which surged with the Restauration of 1640 and later with the Liberal Revolution which as explained, didn't gather much support on both societies.

yeh but remember Pan-Nationalism is a liberal revolter type. Conservatives don't like it, they want the good old days and socialists are past all that nationalism crap anyway. So you arguement fits our model.
 
Love the extra dev diary (and the features described). It very much seems to catch a very important part of the spirit of this era!

I'd also say a case could be made for French sub-cultures and revolters (though with low militancy). Some regions are still pretty anti-french (an anecdote to prove this (;)) would be a visiting french professor comming to the uni here refusing to speak french to anyone who tried to do so as he was from picardie and would only converse on his mother tongue)...
 
Well ideally it'd be in the same group as Welsh, Scottish, Cornish (if it's in the game, not a great loss if it isn't) and Britons/Brittans (what do you call inhabitants of Brittany?). The UK would have Welsh and Scottish cultures accepted.
I'd understand if the culture groups aren't that detailed or complex and I appreciate that it'd be tricky to do it the world over, and probably easy to mod in, but I think it'd be the ideal solution.

Ok let's knock the culture inflation rigth on the head here. We are not going to have a seperate culture for all 7 Cornish speakers. The Welsh and the Scots are classed as British. This is 1850s not the 1950s, British is still best. The Irish are very much apart, but up until 1916 their demand was for limited devloution not independence, hence why they go in the British culture group.
 
I really like this concept as it allows a great deal of flexibility, particularly in otherwise ahistoric contexts. What I will be intrigued to find out is how immigration might affect this; will migrants assimilate so-much-so that they fully embrace their union tag immediately, or will it take time? Something for another developer diary, no doubt.

Migration is not affected by the Union tag, if you are leaving the country to go else where then you are leaving. Migration is not fuly set up yet, however for those of you who are interested it is plain scripts in the POP type files using an MTTH model to determine where to go.
 
Great Dev. Diary, King, Victoria2 sounds each time more promissing!

This system looks like quite perfect for the time scope of this game, as it handles very well with both the unifications and secessions that occured (or could have occured).
You said about the three cultures inside the American Culture Group, and I was thinking you could do something similar to Latin America. More specifically, there could be a Brazilian Culture Group, with Brazil as union tag and the cultures:
-Gaucho, in southern Brazil, that revolted as the Piratini or Rio Grandense Republic at the start of the Victoria timeframe; (to not overlap cultures, the "gauchos" in spanish regions could be simply called "platineans", IMHO).
-Nordestino, from northeastern Brazil, much more favourable to slavery and other conservative views. They were the "agricultural power" and most "precious" part of Brazil in the colonial times, but became decadent after that, exactly like the Dixies in comparison with the yankees (except that the Dixies were in the South and the Yankees in the north, and in Brazil it was the reverse). They rebelled a little before the Victorial timeframe too, with the Confederação do Equador in 1824 - and there were many other smaller revolts within the XIX century, that could be taken, in game, as revolts of the Nordestinos pops rather than hard-coded events, as they were in Vicky1 (or was it in VIP?).
-Brazilian itself, or maybe Sulista (while they weren't the southernmost region, sometimes the Nordestinos call the Southeastern ones "Southerns" of Sulistas). It would not be fair to name then after one of the states of the region, though. They, as the yankees, did not have a separatist movement, but, if needed, one could use the Inconfidência Mineira, from 1789, as a base for an separatist Sulista state - its symbol, a red triangle with the motto "Libertas Quae Sera Tamen" (Freedom, even if delayed) would be certainly used if they wanted to succeed.

---

Another thing I think would be interesting is at least one unifier state for each culture in a Culture Group. For example, I always missed a Rhinelander Nation to be formed as a puppet state when playing with France and conquering that area. I don't know if - or how - it would be historical, but the creation of a unified puppet state would be really plausible in this situation. By the way, would "Rhinelander" be a culture inside the German Culture Group?

German culture is only North and South German, no Rhinelander and things like that. We are trying to keep the number of cultures down for game play reasons. It might be cool to have a melting pot province with hundreds of cultures but it makes a nightmare for the player trying to figure out who is living there, are they happy or unhappy and why? So you are not going to see these these really complicated cultural grouping in Victoria 2.
 
Here's a contentious question, will Quebec peoples be considered part of the French group or the Canadian Group? Or are Canadians part of the British group or a possible forth member of the America group? Are Canadians part of the same group as Australians? Are New Zealanders part of the same group as Australians? Are Boers part of the same group as Dutch (and Wallonians)?

Whatever the answer, it doesn't really matter because they're all so very very easily moddable.

Well should France fall we don't want Quebec forming France and should Quebec be independent (I am not sure if it is even a revolter at the moment) we don't want France annexing them straight off. So the Quebec people will have to be kept out of the French Culture group for game play reasons. Now when talking about Candain people, let's face it the Americans are far more primiative than Candains. Back when my ancestors were banging rocks together and wondering what would happen if you mixed copper and tin together people were talking about republics. No Canadians are an advanced people with a proper monarch, with her own Church (might not be my church but it's the thought that counts), so do not belong inside the American culture group. Of course Boers do not belong inside the Dutch culture group. Why would the Dutch get a free shot at annexing Transval, why should a new Holland appear in Southern Africa? It makes no sense at all. Culture groups are very much strucutred towards game play.